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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1018
Location: Canada
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 Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| Veronica Moser wrote: | | thanks plotinus, but im not sure anymore...i mean, i know i want to leave him, but does the bible really say that i can leave him if he committed adultry?? |
Veronica, it is not my place to tell you what to do in this matter. I know people who have left their spouses where it was definitely the right thing to do and there are cases where I think it was not. You must decide what you think is right with God's help.
The only advice I can give about biblical passages is that we must remember that the institution of marriage was not legally the same in Jesus' time as it is now. In NT times in Palestine, a man could divorce a woman but a woman could not divorce a man. At the same time in Rome women could divorce men. Which rules on divorce would the audience of the gospels assume was standard, Roman or Judaic? No one can be sure. So be careful about applying the scripture to your situation. Jesus spoke against divorce. But divorce was a different institution then. Do his words apply to divorce now as well as divorce then? The difficulty of this has meant that many faith communities have struggled hard to make sense of this for the modern world.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7.
Last edited by Plotinus on Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:10 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1018
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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One thing I should add about divorce and the bible. There are a lot of strong opinions on what the bible does and does not permit in terms of divorce. But one thing that is clear to me is that the bible is not clear on divorce for reasons of adultery.
If you are looking for a summary of what the bible says on the subject my suggestion is to look at Matthew 5:31-32 and Matthew 19:9 which accept divorce for reasons of adultery and 1 Corinthians 7:10-11 which accepts a qualified separation between estranged spouses. The gospels of Mark and Luke do not mention an exception to Jesus' prohibition on divorce.
I mention all this only to help you make the decision that is best for you. I can neither prescribe nor proscribe in this matter.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:19 pm Post subject: |
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| and where does it say a ...woman...can divorce her...husband...for it plotinus?... |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1018
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:39 pm Post subject: |
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| theseldomscene wrote: | | and where does it say a ...woman...can divorce her...husband...for it plotinus?... |
Well, it depends on issues I mentioned above. Let us assume that Judaic divorce principles applied. (Jesus was in Palestine after all.) Even if Jesus accepted that women had a right to leave a man for adultery, the law of that period in history did not allow her the right to practise that. A woman who left her husband would either be forced back and punished severely by the husband or would be abandoned by her own family and her former husband's family. I don't think that Jesus would have encouraged women of the time to follow this path with such cruel consequences for the woman. It is not as if such a woman in those days could go back to school or start a business. Perhaps Jesus knew the world of the time was not ready for that. So the omission of this right from scripture does not imply that women had different spiritual rights in this matter than men.
I repeat. This choice is for Veronica to make and for us to support.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 1:23 pm Post subject: |
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yes her choice and all..but what i am asking you plotinus...
is where does it say anywhere a woman can divorce her husband...
the closest it comes is in 1 cor and there it says if she leaves him she is to stay unmarried...
JESUS said nothing about a woman divorcing her husband so that is an invalid argument...understand..
i am not asking for anything but what the bible directly says about it...not you view or what any think it should say...
just simply what it says...and no where is a woman told she can...
i do not think GOD expects a woman to live with an abusive man who beats her...she can live and stay single...
i am not trying to nit pick...but to give advice on divorce mistakenly trying to make it biblical is a very unwise thing to do ...
....but the bible is clear...
if a woman leaves she is to stay single...and please we are not talking about unCHRISTian people....
we are talking to and about those in the church...nor are we discussing things people did before the came to GOD's grace...
so once again i ask you plainly...
where does JESUS ever say a woman can divorce her husband?...1 cor says she can leave him, yes...but then she is to be alone or go back to him...
and no where does it say she can divorce him for adultry...
here are all the teachings of JESUS on it..please point out where HE hints to such...
matt5: It hath been said, Whosoever shall put away his wife, let him give her a writing of divorcement:
Dt 24:1
32 But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.
matt19:3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?
4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,
Gen 1:27 Mark 10:6
5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?
Gen 2:24 Mark 10:7 1 Cor 6:16 Eph 5:31
6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?
Dt 24:1
8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.
9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
10
His disciples say unto him, If the case of the man be so with his wife, it is not good to marry.
11
But he said unto them, All men cannot receive this saying, save they to whom it is given.
12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
mk10:2 And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife? tempting him.
3 And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you?
4 And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put her away.
Deut 24:1 Matt 5:31 19:7
5 And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept.
6 But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.
Gen 1:27 Matt 19:4
7 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;
Gen 2:24 Matt 19:5 1 Cor 6:16 Eph 5:31
8 And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
Gen 2:24
9 What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.
10 And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same matter.
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery.
lk16:Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.
now we can love anyone no matter their decision...
but please point to where JESUS said a wife can divorce her husband sir...not from what it should say according to plot...or what it should say according to society...
but what it says as translated...
1 cor 7:10 And unto the married I command, yet not I, but the Lord, Let not the wife depart from her husband:
11 But and if she depart, let her remain unmarried or be reconciled to her husband: and let not the husband put away his wife.
so i can support her...but i will not twist the scriptures and tell her it says somehting it does not...but that is just me... |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: |
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For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.
dabaq
dä·bak' (Key)
1) to cling, stick, stay close, cleave, keep close, stick to, stick with, follow closely, join to, overtake, catch
a) (Qal)
1) to cling, cleave to
2) to stay with
b) (Pual) to be joined together
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to cleave to
2) to pursue closely
3) to overtake
d) (Hophal) to be made to cleave
Eph 5:28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.
Eph 5:29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Eph 5:30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.
Eph 5:31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.
Eph 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife [see] that she reverence [her] husband.
Deu 24:1 When a man hath taken a wife, and married her, and it come to pass that she find no favour in his eyes, because he hath found some uncleanness in her: then let him write her a bill of divorcement, and give [it] in her hand, and send her out of his house.
1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
and if he is not pleased to dwell with her?
is he happy? does he love his wife as himself?
does he cleave to her?
does he want a divorce?
The bible says veronica, that you can leave him if he is not pleased to dwell with you..
that's what I see..
but the decision is up to you, between you and God, and in your heart.
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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pastor2022
Moderator
Joined: 07 Dec 2006
Posts: 766
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 6:05 pm Post subject: |
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| Veronica, I will pray for you that you will have wisdom and strength to do whatever God leads you to do. May He give you peace and comfort. God bless. |
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Veronica Moser
Goldfish
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 7:56 pm Post subject: |
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wow this is an intense discussion and i appreciate everyone's views and prayers. lone, what you say makes sense. What seldom says makes sense too. who is right though? well, it seems to me right now that lone has a good biblical case for me doing what my heart tells me to do (leave him). seldom, what do you think of lone's argument?
also seldom, i just wanted to encourage you. i saw what twoshack did to you in the thread that was closed and i was inspired by the way you handled yourself. thank you and God bless you. God bless you all. |
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theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:04 pm Post subject: |
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what she said is in and of itself correct...so look carefully and tell me what did it says?...
| Quote: | | 1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him. |
is he pleased to dwell(live) with you.?.if yes..then what does it say...if he is not...then you are free...
but know this...i am only saying this because you asked as our first conversation sort of started...not other reason....
but if you are looking for a biblical reason...read it(the verse above) and see if you have one..... |
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Veronica Moser
Goldfish
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 8:47 pm Post subject: |
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| my husband is miserable. so no idont think he is happy with me. ive already talked to my lawyer. the divorce process has began and i feel comfortable in my decision. thanks for your prayers everyone. |
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1018
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 5:47 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | 1Cr 7:13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.
and if he is not pleased to dwell with her?
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Well said and well chosen lone.
TSS my friend: the bible speaks to you with clarity and wisdom. It speaks to me differently. I follow what little light is given to me.
Veronica. You have my best wishes and prayers. My parents celebrated their 50th wedding anniversary two years ago. Great stuff eh? But I should tell you that my mother was his third wife. There is a life after divorce. 
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 7:18 am Post subject: |
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| Veronica Moser wrote: | | my husband is miserable. so no idont think he is happy with me. ive already talked to my lawyer. the divorce process has began and i feel comfortable in my decision. thanks for your prayers everyone. |
Hi VM,
Very sorry about your marriage.
I wish i had gotten here sooner---to try to save it.
sigh
So it's God's will.
Both successful marriage and divorce are based on Unconditional Love.
So your divorce will be successful only if you increase your Love for your present husband by increasing your Love for yourself....so that you will get a more loving husband next time.
If you do not increase your Love for yourself,
you will simply marry/attach to another man who is your present husband in disguise.
You can only marry people at the same level of your own Love, and that's why they marry you.
That is how you cd have also saved this marriage:
by loving you as all the things your H hated you as:
the Love wd have helped you to help yourself from falling down or to pick yourself up and so help him.
As it is, since you both hate your own selves and each other as yourselves as bad guys,
when he hates u, he is also hating himself,
and then
you hate him for hating you and so hate yourself...so you both fall down.
Do you see?
In fact, i am pretty sure that you married a man like your dad, and he married a lady like his mom.
But even if not, you each brought what Love and Hate were given to you by your parents/guardians into your own marriage.
So if you divorce him in hate of him as a yeller or miserable[haterable] or as an adulterer, or as any words,
then your divorce will not work well neither.
In fact, that Hate is the only true basis for the break up of the marriage and divorce in the first place.
So when a person is in Love,
they hardly ever go for divorce:
lovers can stand haters: it is the hater who can't stand to be loved. Mt 19/1 Cor 7/Ephes 5.
That Love is how and why the valid option of divorce hardly ever is taken up by Lovers:
since i have to divorce in Love,
the very Love that makes the marriage work, then---hey---let's stay married--any way!
We can work this out!!
see?
It's never too late!smile
in the Love that saves marriages and makes divorce unnecessary and makes divorce work,
atoz
Last edited by atoz on Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:50 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:13 am Post subject: |
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that was beautiful atoz!
It is in the foundation, and the things which we build upon it. If the foundation can be made strong then nothing can tear it down... 
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Veronica Moser
Goldfish
Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 63
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| thanks atoz |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Veronica Moser wrote: | | thanks atoz |
You're welcome, VM!
And this says in other words what you say that you can't figure out in the other post.
So just think about it,
and it'll come to you.
In the meantime,
please ask any questions.
with Love and R,
atoz |
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