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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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 Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:52 am Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| composer2005 wrote: |
| VCO wrote: | John 8:57-59 (NKJV)
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." |
Where does it say 'I was?' |
I see you do not even know a basic truth about GOD. HE IS THE "I AM", never is He at any time the 'I was'. Jesus in that statement called Himself God. God is OMNIPRESENT, and that not only means present in every cubic inch of the Uninverse and beyond, but HE is also OMINPRESENT in every second of time at the same time, because He is the Creator of time as we know it. He is not a travelor through time, that would be putting the Omnipresent God in a box, ceasing to make Him Omnipresent. Therefore only part of GOD could have been the the body of Jesus at any one time. That part is the Son. God therefore is NOT the "I was, I am, and I will be", HE TRULY IS THEE "I AM". He declares the end from the beginning, because HE IS ALREADY THERE simultaneously existing in ALL TIME AT THE SAME TIME. Being Chosen by God and yet still having the freedom to choose Him, is NOT A DICHOTOMY, He as the Creator of Time exists outside of time as we know it, looking at all time at the same time. In His OMNIPRESENT state, He is simply chosing those whom He sees are choosing Him. Thus our names are in the Book of Life before before the foundation of the earth not only because He is ALL KNOWING, but also because He is OMNIPRESENT. God is far, far larger and more powerful, than you have been able to imagine Him.
2 Peter 3:8 (NKJV)
8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
Psalms 139:7-16 (NASB)
7 Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
8 If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there.
9 If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea,
10 Even there Your hand will lead me, And Your right hand will lay hold of me.
11 If I say, "Surely the darkness will overwhelm me, And the light around me will be night,"
12 Even the darkness is not dark to You, And the night is as bright as the day. Darkness and light are alike to You.
13 For You formed my inward parts; You wove me in my mother's womb.
14 I will give thanks to You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made; Wonderful are Your works, And my soul knows it very well.
15 My frame was not hidden from You, When I was made in secret, And skillfully wrought in the depths of the earth;
16 Your eyes have seen my unformed substance; And in Your book were all written The days that were ordained for me, When as yet there was not one of them.
When Jesus said ". . . I AM" the crowd in the Temple, knew EXACTLY what Jesus had just called Himself. They even to up stones to stone Him for calling Himself God. But Jesus passed right through the midst of them without being seen, John 8:57-58.
Those of you who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, have blinded your own hearts, eyes, and ears to the truth. You do not see it because you do not want to see. I have shown you that Paul says Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things in heaven and on earth; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. I have shown you that Jesus Christ personally claimed to be God; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is a person addressed as He, Himself, or Who, and is not an IT or a force or just the power of God; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. I have shown you that you need to be born again before you can understand the deep Spiritual things of God; and still you close your eyes and harden your heart. I have done the work of an Evangelist, and called you to repent and receive Jesus as LORD; and still you close your eyes and harden your heart. I have shown you that God Himself has called Himself an Us and an Our, the plural form; and you have closed your eyes and hardened your heart. I have shown you that the Lord says we are to Baptize in the NAME (singular) of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit; and you have closed your eyes and hardened your heart. I have prayed for you to have understanding; and still you close your eyes and harden your hearts. I think it is time for this servant to be faithful to this verse.
Matthew 10:14 (NKJV)
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| VCO wrote: | John 8:57-59 (NKJV)
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." |
| composer2005 wrote: | | Where does it say 'I was?' |
| VCO wrote: | | I see you do not even know a basic truth about GOD. HE IS THE "I AM", never is He at any time the 'I was'. Jesus in that statement called Himself God. |
You could have also been implying that Jesus was claiming to have been 'preexistent to Abraham' and therefore implying that Jesus was saying 'I was / I existed before Abraham'
I see you are quoting from the later NKJV which misuses I AM
I have many Bibles and NONE say I AM. (Capitalised)
I am - YLT
I am - KJV
I am - DBY
I am - ASV
I am - EMPHATIC Diaglott Greek 'Word for Word' to English Interlinear
He was not claiming to be literally older in years than Abraham. This is indicated by his prior remark: "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." (vs. 56). Abraham, to whom the gospel was preached (Gal. 3:8), "saw" the day of Christ through the eye of faith. Christ was "foreordained before the foundation of the world, but manifest in these last times". (1 Peter 1:20). He was foreordained in the divine purpose, but not formed. Similarly in the divine purpose he was the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world" (Rev. 13:8) but literally he was not slain until his crucifixion in the time of Pilate.
There is no proof that Christ alludes to the divine name (imperfectly rendered by the A.V., "I am that I am"). Jesus simply uses the present tense of the verb "to be". Even if this verse were intended to be read as an allusion to the divine name, this is not proof that Christ was claiming to be "Very God". The divine name declared, "I will be what I will be". (Exod. 3:14 R.S.V. mg.). (Wrested Scriptures)
So again you only have at best another 'inferred' and empty argument.
| VCO wrote: | | God is OMNIPRESENT, and that not only means present in every cubic inch of the Uninverse and beyond, but HE is also OMINPRESENT in every second of time at the same time, because He is the Creator of time as we know it. He is not a travelor through time, that would be putting the Omnipresent God in a box, ceasing to make Him Omnipresent. Therefore only part of GOD could have been the the body of Jesus at any one time. That part is the Son. God therefore is NOT the "I was, I am, and I will be", HE TRULY IS THEE "I AM". He declares the end from the beginning, because HE IS ALREADY THERE simultaneously existing in ALL TIME AT THE SAME TIME. Being Chosen by God and yet still having the freedom to choose Him, is NOT A DICHOTOMY, He as the Creator of Time exists outside of time as we know it, looking at all time at the same time. In His OMNIPRESENT state, He is simply chosing those whom He sees are choosing Him. Thus our names are in the Book of Life before before the foundation of the earth not only because He is ALL KNOWING, but also because He is OMNIPRESENT. God is far, far larger and more powerful, than you have been able to imagine Him. |
There is no doubt that God is I AM
Problem for you is that the Bible proves Jesus isn't God.
| VCO wrote: |
Those of you who do not believe in the Holy Trinity, have blinded your own hearts, eyes, and ears to the truth. You do not see it because you do not want to see. I have shown you that Paul says Jesus Christ is the Creator of all things in heaven and on earth; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. |
Paul didn't think that at all and you have been shown that repeatedly and dismiss the facts for your blind fantasy -
Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No. (p.160) How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com (My BOLD)
The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:
"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27)
Or more recently:
"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28)
27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180
28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980
| VCO wrote: | | I have shown you that Jesus Christ personally claimed to be God; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. |
No you have not. You have quoted from one of the latest corrupt translations that contradicts the 5 Bibles I had on hand to quote from.
Jesus himself NEVER claimed equality with his God and in fact the opposite e.g. -
. . . . my Father is greater than I (John 14:28) KJV
(The Jesus being humble excuse doesn't cut it)
Jesus was not ALL knowing but God is. Jesus remained inferior and not ALL knowing even after his God raised him from the dead (Rev. 1: 1) KJV
" It was impossible for the Apostles to identify Christ with Jehovah. Psalm 110:1 and Malachi 3:1 prevented this " (Charles C. Bigg, D.D. Regius Professor of Ecclesiastical History, Oxford, in International Critical Commentary on I Peter).
In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. (p.161) How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com (My BOLD)
| VCO wrote: | | I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is a person addressed as He, Himself, or Who, and is not an IT or a force or just the power of God; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. |
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) KJV
trinitarians read this as "Well we believe that the Holy Spirit / Ghost is a Person , a HE.
Therefore HE came down and had intercourse with Mary so that the trinitarian jesus could be born.
Conversely
A more Scriptural and rational solution is that indeed the Holy Ghost IS NOT a HE or A PERSON but is rather 'God's Spirit Power'. (Exactly what Luke 1:35 states)
| VCO wrote: | | I have shown you that you need to be born again before you can understand the deep Spiritual things of God; and still you close your eyes and harden your heart. |
God's Word has shown you you are a false evangelist.
| VCO wrote: | I think it is time for this servant to be faithful to this verse.
Matthew 10:14 (NKJV)
14 And whoever will not receive you nor hear your words, when you depart from that house or city, shake off the dust from your feet. |
Well you can quote what you like but so far all your quotes you have failed miserably to support credibly.
You can stay in the ditch where the blind are and those led by the blind if you wish, that is up to you? -
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind . And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch. (Matt. 15:14) KJV |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:28 pm Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| composer2005 wrote: |
| VCO wrote: | | I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is a person addressed as He, Himself, or Who, and is not an IT or a force or just the power of God; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. |
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) KJV
trinitarians read this as "Well we believe that the Holy Spirit / Ghost is a Person , a HE.
Therefore HE came down and had intercourse with Mary so that the trinitarian jesus could be born. {Now that comment is a TOTAL LIE, and is Blasphemy! The only group that I personally know of that believes anything remotely like that is the psuedo-Christian Cult, the Mormans.}
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We believe what the Bible says:
2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 1:14 (NKJV)
14 That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.
Hebrews 10:15 (NKJV)
15 But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before,
Revelation 3:22 (NKJV)
22 "He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
1 John 5:6 (NKJV)
6 This is He who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
1 John 3:24 (NKJV)
24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
1 Peter 4:14 (NKJV)
14 If you are reproached for the name of Christ, blessed are you, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests upon you. On their part He is blasphemed, but on your part He is glorified.
1 Corinthians 12:11 (NKJV)
11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
Romans 8:26-27 (NKJV)
26 Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
27 Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
Romans 8:11 (NKJV)
11 But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
John 14:16-18 (NKJV)
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever--
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
John 14:26 (NKJV)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 15:26 (NKJV)
26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
John 16:13-15 (NKJV)
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. 15 All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you.
John 1:32 (NKJV)
32 And John bore witness, saying, "I saw the Spirit descending from heaven like a dove, and He remained upon Him.
Isaiah 59:21 (NKJV)
21 "As for Me," says the Lord, "this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants' descendants," says the Lord, "from this time and forevermore."
Romans 8:16 (NKJV)
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
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1 John 4:6 (NKJV)
6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.
Hebrews 10:29 (NKJV)
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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VCO:
I don't think you answered my question:
I started a thread rebutting the Trinity. In that thread, I posted so many scriptural references refuting the Trinity that I had to list them in 2 separate posts in that thread. I know there are many more than I listed.
Do you want me to list the biblical references that I posted in the other thread or are you going to stay stuck in this belief even though the bible does not support it? 
Luv |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| VCO wrote: | | composer2005 wrote: |
| VCO wrote: | | I have shown you that the Holy Spirit is a person addressed as He, Himself, or Who, and is not an IT or a force or just the power of God; and you close your eyes and harden your heart. |
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1:35) KJV |
trinitarians read this as "Well we believe that the Holy Spirit / Ghost is a Person , a HE.
Therefore HE came down and had intercourse with Mary so that the trinitarian jesus could be born. Now that comment is a TOTAL LIE, and is Blasphemy! The only group that I personally know of that believes anything remotely like that is the psuedo-Christian Cult, the Mormans.}
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By claiming the Holy Spirit is a literal 'HE" that is exactly what you are claiming.
HE came down to impregnate Mary = your scenario
God's Power came down to impregnate Mary = The Bible and my scenario
| VCO wrote: | | We believe what the Bible says: |
No you don't and I have proved you don't - see above!
| VCO wrote: | 2 Timothy 3:16-17 (NKJV)
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness,
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. |
Then please try reading what is actually written and stop fabricating what isn't. |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| composer2005 wrote: |
trinitarians read this as "Well we believe that the Holy Spirit / Ghost is a Person , a HE.
Therefore HE came down and had intercourse with Mary so that the trinitarian jesus could be born. Now that comment is a TOTAL LIE, and is Blasphemy! The only group that I personally know of that believes anything remotely like that is the psuedo-Christian Cult, the Mormans.}
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By claiming the Holy Spirit is a literal 'HE" that is exactly what you are claiming.
HE came down to impregnate Mary = your scenario
[/quote]
AND AGAIN YOU LIE, and insult the Holy Spirit. I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING AND YOU KNOW IT. John 8:44
GOD the HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT IMPREGNATE MARY, HE FORMED IN HER WOMB A BODY THAT PART OF HE (THE HOLY TRINITY) HIMSELF COULD INDWELL AND DIE IN.
Psalms 139:13 (NKJV)
13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb.
Isaiah 44:2 (NKJV)
2 Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: 'Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.
Isaiah 44:24 (NKJV)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
Isaiah 49:5 (NKJV)
5 "And now the Lord says, Who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, So that Israel is gathered to Him (For I shall be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, And My God shall be My strength),
Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV)
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations."
Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.
Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
I cannot continue to reply to your insulting posts, only to give you more opportunities to insult my Lord my God, and as for your insults and blasphemous statements about the Holy Spirit, I leave you to answer to HIM for them personally. We have seen your Fruit, and it is rotten.
Matthew 7:18-20 (NKJV)
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| composer2005 wrote: | trinitarians read this as "Well we believe that the Holy Spirit / Ghost is a Person , a HE.
Therefore HE came down and had intercourse with Mary so that the trinitarian jesus could be born.
| VCO wrote: | | Now that comment is a TOTAL LIE, and is Blasphemy! The only group that I personally know of that believes anything remotely like that is the psuedo-Christian Cult, the Mormans.} |
By claiming the Holy Spirit is a literal 'HE" that is exactly what you are claiming.
HE came down to impregnate Mary = your scenario |
| VCO wrote: | | AND AGAIN YOU LIE, and insult the Holy Spirit. I NEVER SAID ANY SUCH THING AND YOU KNOW IT. John 8:44 |
YOU DID!
And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, . . . (Luke 1:31) KJV
The Conception of Christ took place by the combination of two parts. 1. Your scenario a HE and Mary's egg.
My scenario and the Bibles scenario God's Power (Luke 1:35) KJV and Mary's egg.
If it were not for Mary's mortal egg Jesus would not be 'a man' but he is (Acts 2:22) KJV
| VCO wrote: | GOD the HOLY SPIRIT DID NOT IMPREGNATE MARY, HE FORMED IN HER WOMB A BODY THAT PART OF HE (THE HOLY TRINITY) HIMSELF COULD INDWELL AND DIE IN.
Psalms 139:13 (NKJV)
13 For You formed my inward parts; You covered me in my mother's womb. |
There we have it God 'formed Christ' and you can't 'form' something that is already 'formed'.
Proving yet again that Christ had NO literal 'form' until born by way of Mary and God's Power.
| VCO wrote: | Isaiah 44:2 (NKJV)
2 Thus says the Lord who made you And formed you from the womb, who will help you: 'Fear not, O Jacob My servant; And you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen. |
There also. GOD MADE HIM and GOD CAN'T MAKE something that already literally exists or preexisted.
GOD did the making and unless God had 'made' Jesus then Jesus would never have literally existed.
Confirming yet again what I have poinmted out to you a myriad of times and that falls on your blind eys and deaf ears. -
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (John 5:26) KJS
Not only did God 'make Christ' but as we see 'gave life to Christ' and again you can't 'give life' to something that is already alive or preexistent.
| VCO wrote: | Isaiah 44:24 (NKJV)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself; |
GOD says HE formed Christ FROM THE WOMB meaning as Christ grew from the teachings and lessons his God gave him he became eventually 'formed' as the worthy Lamb. - And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man. {stature: or, age} (Luke 2:52) KJV
Next in that same passage Isaiah 44:24 you quoted -
Christ's redeemer is The Lord. Christ can't redeem himself. That's what it says.
Jesus agrees I can of mine own self do nothing: . . . (John 5:30) KJV
But you trinitarians twist that to Christ lying and inferring 'Well I only mean the human bits of me can't do anything' which is a total trinitarian distortion because Christ speaks of his entire self ' MINE OWN SELF
Next in that same passage Isaiah 44:24 you quoted -
"I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself.
This is speaking of the one who formed Christ because Christ didn't or couldn't 'form himself' because he just told us that HE CAN'T DO A THING by himself or of himself -
I (Jesus) can of mine own self do nothing: . . . (John 5:30) KJV (Parenthesis mine)
| VCO wrote: | Jeremiah 1:5 (NKJV)
5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations." |
So you are now telling me that Jeremiah also literally preexisted with Christ because God 'knew him' before Jeremiah was born?
| VCO wrote: | Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob. |
But you deny this and claim God DID change and became a man?
| VCO wrote: | Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. |
Jesus was dead so it can't mean that he always existed.
It is symbolic language representing Christ's unchanging devotion, submission, obedience and unequivocal Faith to his God. - (Luke 22:42) KJV
Christ is the same as he was spoken about yesterday in the OT. Christ remained the same in his life and ministry on Earth. He will remain the same for all eternity.
| VCO wrote: | | I cannot continue to reply to your insulting posts, only to give you more opportunities to insult my Lord my God, and as for your insults and blasphemous statements about the Holy Spirit, I leave you to answer to HIM for them personally. We have seen your Fruit, and it is rotten. |
Just because you deny the Scriptural facts doesn't make your claims against me true.
You deny the Scriptures and replace it with a false Gospel.
| VCO wrote: | Matthew 7:18-20 (NKJV)
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. |
Precisely. The evidence you provide from the Bible does not legitimately support your current doctrine.
You distort it, corrupt it and blaspheme God in doing so i.e. you Blaspheme His Word and replace it with your words. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: US
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| Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:58 pm Post subject: |
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VCO; I will take your non-response as a 'yes.'
Here are the verses from Matthew that prove the Trinity doctrine is false:
Matt 3:16, 17 16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: 17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matt 12:50 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
Matt 13:41-43 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Matt 15:13 13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Matt 16: 15-17 & 27 15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
Matt 18:14 & 35 14 In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost. 35 "This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart."
Matt 19: 17 & 26 17 "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." 26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Matt 20:23 23 Jesus said to them, "You will indeed drink from my cup, but to sit at my right or left is not for me to grant. These places belong to those for whom they have been prepared by my Father."
Matt 21:12 & 33-39 12And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves,
33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
39 And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
* I included this next parable as I believe it is a reference to God and Jesus and to us as Gods adopted children *
Matt 22:1-14 & 31,32 1 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,
2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,
3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.
4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. 5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: 6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.
7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. 8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.
9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage. 10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.
11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:
12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless. 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 14 For many are called, but few are chosen. 31 But as touching the resurrection of the dead, have ye not read that which was spoken unto you by God, saying, 32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.
Matt 23: 8-10 8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one Master and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth 'father,' for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called 'teacher,' for you have one Teacher, the Christ.
Matt 25: 34 34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.
Matt 26: 29 I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom."
Luv |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: You started you own thread, WHY move it to here? |
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| luvnlife wrote: | VCO:
I don't think you answered my question:
I started a thread rebutting the Trinity. |
I know you did, but we left you alone to your own beliefs, figuring those that believe like you could post there, and discuss it amoung yourselves. I started this thread SPECIFICALLY stating I would like to hear from others who believe in the HOLY TRINITY sharing why they believe in the ONE GOD, the Holy Trinity. Instead, those of you who do not believe in the Holy Trinity try to take over the thread, viciously attacking over and over again, biting and tearing at our beliefs, and even lying about what we believe and what I said to try to discredit with false statements our belief in the ONE GOD, the Holy Trinity. WHY? You had your own thread, so why were you SO DRIVEN to move it to here AND argue? Are your actions like those of a true Christian or are they like the Devil's advocates we were warned about?
Philippians 4:4-5 (NKJV)
4 Rejoice in the Lord always. Again I will say, rejoice!
5 Let your gentleness be known to all men. The Lord is at hand.
Matthew 7:15-20 (NKJV)
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves.
16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles?
17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
Acts 20:27-31 (NKJV)
27 For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God.
28 Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves.
31 Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears.
1 Peter 5:6-11 (NKJV)
6 Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that He may exalt you in due time,
7 casting all your care upon Him, for He cares for you.
8 Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.
9 Resist him, steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same sufferings are experienced by your brotherhood in the world.
10 But may the God of all grace, who called us to His eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after you have suffered a while, perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle you.
11 To Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Titus 3:9-11 (NIV)
9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.
10 Warn a divisive person once, and then warn him a second time. After that, have nothing to do with him.
11 You may be sure that such a man is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: trinity discussion |
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We non-trinitarians are so concerned out of Christian Love that you current trinitarians realise your errors as soon as possible and not remain in the ditch a second longer where your blind leaders have taken you, that we just can't help ourselves but grasp every opportunity to point out just why trinitarians can't legitimately support their trinity doctrine but won't admit it, despite the overwhelming and unambioguous wealth of evidence against them.
I am not being sarcastic, it is true.
You should hang your head in shame that you attempt to divert your incapacity to sustain your current doctrine by blaming others for them helping you to see your current folly of embracing so dearly a doctrine that just doesn't agree with sound Scriptural examination but is found wanting at every step.
And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not. (John 8:45) KJV |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| VCO wrote: | | those of you who do not believe in the Holy Trinity try to take over the thread, viciously attacking over and over again, biting and tearing at our beliefs, and even lying about what we believe and what I said to try to discredit with false statements our belief in the ONE GOD, the Holy Trinity. WHY? |
Hey brother, I'm with ya. Check this out......
1 Peter 4:14
If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:12 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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That's all well and good Dust, however any one can throw Scriptures and think it applies to them when they want to appear in a good light and in the right as you do here with 1 Pet. 4:14.
However in order for it to legitimately apply to your cause, you need to FIRST demonstrate that your current cause has merit.
So far that has never been the case and thus your misuse of Scripture demonstrates again the weakness of your current argument.
I don't just throw out Scriptures, I prove them effectively and unambiguously and they decimate the trinitarian cause and the fallen heavenly angel literal spirit being cause every time. |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 8:48 pm Post subject: |
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Hello composer,
| composer wrote: | However in order for it to legitimately apply to your cause, you need to FIRST demonstrate that your current cause has merit.
So far that has never been the case |
I totally disagree.
I've personally demonstrated such merit in discussions with you. That you disagree with my findings is a point of truth. That you find my findings to have no merit is a matter of opinion.
Many of the 2.5 billion Christians on the planet believe in the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept as outlined in the NT. Of those, very few have gone beyond a tacit-like understanding of this. I will point out that, IMO, a tacit or perhaps spiritual understanding is more perfect than a verbalized or written critical interpretation. Futhermore, it seems to me that such verbalized or written interpretations explainning the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept as outlined in the NT, such as decreed by the Council of Nicea, have been forced by counter verbalized or written interpretations.
btw....My findings coincide with the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept as outlined in the NT, as well as the Council of Nicea. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 9:07 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Thanks Dust,
The same Council of Nicea that burned people alive and tortured them to believe what that ungodly council concocted, oh! that one.
Wow!
You also need to read Matt. 7:14 - and see how your self justification of huge numbers disqualifies your doctrine also. |
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luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1133
Location: US
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:48 pm Post subject: |
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VCO: | Quote: | | I know you did, but we left you alone to your own beliefs, figuring those that believe like you could post there, and discuss it amoung yourselves. I started this thread SPECIFICALLY stating I would like to hear from others who believe in the HOLY TRINITY sharing why they believe in the ONE GOD, the Holy Trinity. Instead, those of you who do not believe in the Holy Trinity try to take over the thread, viciously attacking over and over again, biting and tearing at our beliefs, and even lying about what we believe and what I said to try to discredit with false statements our belief in the ONE GOD, the Holy Trinity. WHY? You had your own thread, so why were you SO DRIVEN to move it to here AND argue? Are your actions like those of a true Christian or are they like the Devil's advocates we were warned about? |
Is this a multiple-choice question? Will there be a test later?
You opened the forum thread stating that this is why you believe in the Trinity. I started a thread with a totally opposite spin. I welcomed people (like you) to rebut what I stated. This is a public forum.
More importantly (or should I say MOST importantly) you should want to know the truth. If you believe in the bible, you should want to look at the scriptures presented. I don't have to twist, turn, pull, drag or stretch anything in those verses to verify why I don't believe in the trinity 'theory. You, on the other hand, have to look in different versions of the bible, look up words and their meanings then go back to the greek/hebrew meanings and search each until you find something that supports what you want to hear.
I'm just pointing out that the bible DOES NOT support YOUR belief in the trinity.
In answer to your question above, my actions are driven by my love for God and His Son, Jesus.
Love, Luv
P.S. I only listed some of the scriptures I found in Matt. There are many similar scriptures in several other books of the bible if you are interested in the truth. |
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