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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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 Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:44 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| VCO wrote: | Matthew 1:22-23 (NKJV)
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." |
shall be is a future event and thus Christ didn't literally exist before
shall be called Immanuel means he wasn't called Immanuel before
It is sometimes asserted that the name Immanuel - "God is with us" - given to Jesus proves that he is God. If that were so, then the child born soon after the prediction was given by Isaiah in the days of Ahaz, would also have been God.
The name, however, does not tell us that Jesus is God, but that in his life God has intervened to save His people. The parents who in Old Testament times called their son Ithiel (Prov. 30:1) - "God is with me" - did not believe their offspring to be Deity.
Names of this type indicate the divine event associated with the life of the individual so named. God, the Father of Jesus, was certainly with Israel as He worked through His unique Son. In the life of Jesus, the Son of God, God had visited His people.
A Trinitarian scholar of the last century wrote: "To maintain that the name Immanuel proves the doctrine [of the Deity of Jesus] is a fallacious argument, although many Trinitarians have urged it. Jerusalem is called 'Jehovah our Righteousness.' Is Jerusalem also Divine?"36
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36. Moses Stuart, Answer to Channing, cited in Concessions, 236.
| VCO wrote: | John 20:27-29 (NKJV)
27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
29 Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
I see by your posts that "You do not believe." But Thomas and I certainly do believe HE is GOD in the flesh, and Jesus did not correct Thomas. In fact he said that we who believe like Thomas would be "blessed" and we are. You do not have an abundance of joy in your life, do you? |
My Lord = Christ
My God = Christ's God
The repetition of My (twice) proves Thomas is speaking of Christ and the God of Christ.
It does not say as VCO would suggest "My Lord who is also my God" it says what it says 'My Lord (Christ) AND My God (the God of Christ) (Parenthesis mine)
thank you |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | . . . why was it necessary to encourage others with the use of trinitarian Laws created to 'persuade' others to join or else be tortured or burned alive? etc. etc. |
To claim to acknowlege the reality of the Holy Trinity in one's mind does not make one a geniune born again Christian. The vast majority of that entered through the Broad Gate to destruction, would say that they believe in the Holy Trinity. Salvation is not related to the number of facts in one's head, we are SAVED by GRACE, through Faith and even that Faith was given to us by the Holy Spirit, Eph. 2:8-9. It is that gift of faith that brings a true believer to his or her knees to repent and willingly surrender control of one's life to JESUS as Lord (Master). EVEN Jesus said that the majority that called Him Lord were phonies, stubbornly remaining Lord of their own lives, doing their own thing, their own way. AND all the time thinking they had entered a gate that would lead them to heaven, when in reality they still remained on the road to hell. So if Jesus warned us that the majority claiming to be Christians would be phonies, and the History of the Church seems to be full of phonies; what does that have to do with those of us that are genuine born again Christians?
A very wise elderly Pastor once told me, "If you do not run head on into the Devil once in awhile in your Christian walk, you'd better look around and make sure you are not going the same direction the Devil." Now what Churches is the Devil going to sow phonies in, Churches that are teaching the Truth, or those that are already 100% false? Since the Devil seems to have spent a GREAT DEAL of time sowing tares to make Churches that teach the Holy Trinity look bad; would it not then be obvious that the DEVIL wants what they teach to be discredited.
Matthew 7:21-23 (NKJV)
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Matthew 7:13-14 (NKJV)
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.
14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
Luke 13:23-27 (NKJV)
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.
25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, 'Lord, Lord, open for us,' and He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know you, where you are from,'
26 then you will begin to say, 'We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.'
27 But He will say, 'I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.'
Matthew 22:14 (NKJV)
14 For many are called, but few are chosen."
Matthew 13:24-30 (NKJV)
24 Another parable He put forth to them, saying: "The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field;
25 but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat and went his way.
26 But when the grain had sprouted and produced a crop, then the tares also appeared.
27 So the servants of the owner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28 He said to them, 'An enemy has done this.' The servants said to him, 'Do you want us then to go and gather them up?'
29 But he said, 'No, lest while you gather up the tares you also uproot the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn." ' "
NOTICE: Scripture says, "both grow together" and you yourself have repeated pointed out the phonies (tares) are and have been in the Trinitarian Churches. IT IS NOT THE DOCTRINE that is false, but rather the phonies that Satan has planted in the Churches that are false. NOW WHY IS THE DEVIL NOT PLANTING TARES WHERE YOU WORSHIP? Could it be you are already no threat to him?
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Titus 2:13
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| VCO wrote: | | IT IS NOT THE DOCTRINE that is false, but rather the phonies that Satan has planted in the Churches that are false. NOW WHY IS THE DEVIL NOT PLANTING TARES WHERE YOU WORSHIP? Could it be you are already no threat to him?[/color] |
1. I have already proven that the trinity doctrine IS illegitimate and not supported by the Bible.
2. You keep referring to a 'Satan' Why do you hold the Apostle Peter responsible for all evil? (Matt. 16:23) KJV
3. What makes you think Judas is / isn't causing problems where I worship? (John 6:70 - 71) KJV
(I am not intentionally trying to be sarcastic to any one. It is the reality of the none sense Orthodox teachings have perpetrated upon the majority of its congregation and the only way I can expose it is to point out just how silly Orthodox teachings are by examples such as this.
You need to 1. Establish that there are literal fallen heavenly angel spirit beings.
2. That Satan is a proper name.
Of course this is not the direct Topic in hand so another Thread would be fine and you can start to answer my questions please?
Meanwhile the points I raised above will continue the discussion here.)
BTW: You mention 'both grow together' what you missed was 'UNTIL THE HARVEST - i.e
Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. (Matt. 24:40) KJV
Stick with trinitarianism and you will be the one left and rejected.
Thank you. |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 5:56 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | VCO wrote: | Matthew 1:22-23 (NKJV)
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." |
shall be is a future event and thus Christ didn't literally exist before
shall be called Immanuel means he wasn't called Immanuel before
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 RE-READ the verse, then look at your comments. I am sorry Composer, perhaps your heart is that blind and hardened. HE is talking about the incranation, so YES prior to that He had not yet created the body we know as JESUS, for He HIMSELF to enter and die in; but HE CERTAINLY EXISTED PRIOR BECAUSE HE IS THE CREATOR, Col. 1:16.
Doesn't it hurt to keep kicking against the sharp sticks with bare feet? Acts 26:14-15
Ephesians 4:18 (NIV)
18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
Seriously, I have to believe that as long as there is breath in the body, there is a chance that the Holy Spirit, can find a crevace in the rock of your heart with some fertile soil for the Word of God to grow in; as ONLY the Lord can see the heart. So please admit to God you are a sinner, and receive Christ in your heart as Lord (Master), asking Him to give you understanding that ONLY the Holy Spirit can give you.
Ezekiel 11:19 (KJV)
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:
_________________
Titus 2:13
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | VCO wrote: | Matthew 1:22-23 (NKJV)
22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying:
23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us." |
shall be is a future event and thus Christ didn't literally exist before
shall be called Immanuel means he wasn't called Immanuel before
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| VCO wrote: | | :lol: RE-READ the verse, then look at your comments. I am sorry Composer, perhaps your heart is that blind and hardened. HE is talking about the incranation, so YES prior to that He had not yet created the body we know as JESUS, for He HIMSELF to enter and die in; but HE CERTAINLY EXISTED PRIOR BECAUSE HE IS THE CREATOR, Col. 1:16. |
Christ is the IMAGE i.e. NOT the original.
Was Jesus God to Paul and other early Christians? No (p.160)
In no way is Paul, still a good Jew (although a Christian one), assuming that Jesus was somehow a divine god second only to YHWH. Yes, Jesus was exalted and had the title “Lord” conferred on him by God. But Jesus was a man who, in Jewish context, had become the Messiah. He was still distinct and inferior to YHWH. (p.161)
How the Bible became the Bible by Donald L. O'Dell - ISBN 0-7414-2993-4 Published by INFINITY Publishing.com
Jesus could say repeatedly, “Greater things than I do will you do.” (John 14:12 KJV
So tell me please VCO, how do ordinary mortals 'do greater things' than your godman?
| VCO wrote: | | Doesn't it hurt to keep kicking against the sharp sticks with bare feet? Acts 26:14-15 |
My wearing the full armour of God protects me from harm.
| VCO wrote: | Ephesians 4:18 (NIV)
18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts.
Seriously, I have to believe that as long as there is breath in the body, there is a chance that the Holy Spirit, can find a crevace in the rock of your heart with some fertile soil for the Word of God to grow in; as ONLY the Lord can see the heart. So please admit to God you are a sinner, and receive Christ in your heart as Lord (Master), asking Him to give you understanding that ONLY the Holy Spirit can give you.
Ezekiel 11:19 (KJV)
19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: |
I could throw lots of passages that 'infer' they apply to you but i won't join your silly game of 'slinging and hoping something might stick'.
I'll just plod on decemating your current trinitarian doctrine with the Scriptural facts, as I consistently and effectively have done so all along.
Cheers! |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7002
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | I'll just plod on decemating your current trinitarian doctrine with the Scriptural facts, as I consistently and effectively have done so all along. |
I've seen plodding, consistent plodding, but have yet to see decimation, effective or otherwise...
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Are you Christians still trying to figure out your god? Turn to YHVH of the Tanakh. He is not to be confused with a man. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:46 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| RevJP wrote: | | Quote: | | I'll just plod on decemating your current trinitarian doctrine with the Scriptural facts, as I consistently and effectively have done so all along. |
:?:
I've seen plodding, consistent plodding, but have yet to see decimation, effective or otherwise... |
Just because you haven't seen it doesn't negate the reality that it has repeatedly occurred and thats the facts!
Besides your personal opinions, do you actually have something to add in your flagging effort to support your current trinitarian ideology?
Thank you |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 6:56 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| towshab wrote: | | Are you Christians still trying to figure out your god? Turn to YHVH of the Tanakh. He is not to be confused with a man. |
Thanks Towshab,
It is trinitarians that claim their god was a man.
I am not a trinitarian and my God was never a man and never will be.
You see the trinitarians don't believe the Bible -
God [ is ] not a man , that he should lie; neither the son of man, . . . (Num. 23:19) KJV
Instead they wrest scriptures and jump through hoops to read it as -
trinitarian god was a man
trinitarian god was the son of man
The Bible facts makes no difference to trinitarians. They ignore it when it doesn't suit their purpose and they fabricate 'what they wished it didn't say against them' but sadly for them, certainly does!
Do you know that they even imposed Laws threatening torture, burning alive and all forms of atrocities to get people to embrace their 'loving trinitarian god?'
Cheers! |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:08 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: |
Jesus could say repeatedly, “Greater things than I do will you do.” (John 14:12 KJV
So tell me please VCO, how do ordinary mortals 'do greater things' than your godman?
Cheers! |
During the three years of Jesus Christ's earthly ministry, we have no idea how many he rose from the physically dead; however I think we are correct in assuming it was a great deal more than was recorded in the Gospels, John 21:25. All of those however, died a second physical death. When a born again Christian leads someone to genuinely repent and receive Jesus Christ as LORD (Acts 26:20, Col. 2:6, Mat. 28:19, & John 1:12-13), that person is brought by the Holy Spirit from the spiritually dead to the spiritually living, NEVER TO HAVE A PART IN THE SECOND SPIRITUAL DEATH. Therefore bringing a person to Christ so that he may receive from God ETERNAL LIFE in CHRIST, is greater than the physical resurrections, who died a second physical death.
1 John 5:11 (NKJV)
11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
1 Corinthians 2:14 (NKJV)
14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Revelation 2:11 (NKJV)
11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death." '
Revelation 20:6 (NKJV)
6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
Revelation 20:14 (NKJV)
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 21:8 (NKJV)
8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death."
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:13 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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That has absolutely nothing to do with answering my question?
Why did your godman say mere mortals could do 'greater things than he did' (John 14:12) KJV
In other words, how can mere mortals do 'greater things' than your godman?
Thank you
Last edited by composer2005 on Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:20 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1257
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:16 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | VCO:
| Quote: | Quote:
Colossians 1:15-18 (NKJV)
15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. |
Luv: | Quote: | | Wasn't man also made in Gods image? Does that make us Gods? No. Does this verse imply that Jesus is a God? No. Should he (Jesus) be shown reverence & respect? Yes, of course! He is Lord and Master as appointed by God, his Father. He is not a God, however. The bible states clearly in several places that there is but ONE GOD and there shall be NO OTHER GODS before Him. |
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Hello VCO;
I started a thread not so long ago called "Trinity:
Biblically supported?? I say NO WAY!!!" In that post, I cited scripture after scripture after scripture that refutes the Trinity doctrine/concept.
In addition to these scriptures, I posted scriptures from the bible saying there is but one God and thou shalt have no other Gods before me. What about these scriptures? Do you just gloss over them or dismiss them in your mind and heart somehow?
I also pointed out that Jesus himself refers to God as his Father.....and refers to us as his.....brethren.
The Trinity would have us believe, then, that we are all Gods too. Isn't that the logical conclusion to draw if you are the brother or sister of (a) God? And how did the Holy Spirit get thrown in to this mix? The Holy Spirit is Gods' spirit that He gives to us. It's not a God (though it is of God).
Do you want me to post the scriptures in this thread that I posted in the other thread? There is a multitude of them and I just hit the high points. There are more. The ones I posted alone had to be spread over two posts in that thread to keep the posts down to a reasonable digestible size.
The bible supports the NON-TRINITARIAN view. I am having a difficult time understanding why so many are suckered in by this belief. You have to really stretch and twist the scriptures and look for alternate meanings of words that glue your trinitarian ideologies together. With the NON-TRINITARIAN belief, we simply have to read the bible.
Love, Luv
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For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 8:24 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | . . . You have to really stretch and twist the scriptures and look for alternate meanings of words that glue your trinitarian ideologies together. . . . |
That's nothing to the lengths they went to.
They burned people alive or boiled them in oil or tortured them to death unless they were agreeable to embrace their trinitarian lies and Bible corruptions. |
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VCO
Alley Cat
Joined: 17 Aug 2007
Posts: 178
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 12:50 am Post subject: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| luvnlife wrote: | | The Trinity would have us believe, then, that we are all Gods too. |
NO WAY, you obviously know only what you have been told, and very little about what we really teach and believe.
Knowledge of the Holy Trinity has MUCH MORE to do with a personal relationship with HIM, than how many verses you can find. I do not teach religion, I teach an intimate personal relationship Jesus Christ as LORD (Master), the second person in the Holy Trinity. We do not believe in but ONE GOD, and that ONE God is the Holy Trinity.
Isaiah 43:10-13 (NKJV)
10 "You are My witnesses," says the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, That you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, Nor shall there be after Me.
11 I, even I, am the Lord, And besides Me there is no savior.
12 I have declared and saved, I have proclaimed, And there was no foreign god among you; Therefore you are My witnesses," Says the Lord, "that I am God.
13 Indeed before the day was, I am He; And there is no one who can deliver out of My hand; I work, and who will reverse it?"
John 8:57-59 (NKJV)
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
59 Then they took up stones to throw at Him; but Jesus hid Himself and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
I have a deep personal love relationship with Jesus, He is in me, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, I am in HIM, and He is Lord! I know it is real because of the changes He has made in me. HE is the Potter, and I am the Clay. I used to get drunk every day but AFTER I surrendered control of my life to Him, HE took it away. I used to smoke cigarette after cigarette but HE took it away. I used to cuss and tell dirty jokes all the time, but HE took it away. I used to party hardy almost every night but HE took it away. I used to find the Bible the most boring book on earth, BUT HE filled me with HUNGER for the word of God. I used to be miserable MOST OF THE TIME, but HE filled me with JOY and put HIS music in my heart that bubbles out of me. I used to make fun of those I saw witnessing to others about Christ, BUT HE filled me with a Desire and Sense of URGENCY to witness more than they. I used to long for companionship, BUT NOW HE is ever my Companion, PLUS HE truly gave me a Soul Mate (married 28 years now). NO I am not a religionist teaching Trinity doctrine, I am one who has a personal relationship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and I long to share it with you. He can change your heart too. He will take your heart of stone and change it into a heart of flesh. But He does not kick the door open, He only stands at the door and knocks. You have to come to Him mourning over your sinfulness and willingly open that door to your heart, inviting Him to come in and rule over your life as LORD, and you too will become an adopted son of God.
HE is doing a much, much better job of running my life than I did. Doing things my own way only lead me to three attempts at suicide. But NOW I have more joy in my heart than I ever dreamed I could have. Without a born again spirit, you cannot know or understand the deep Spiritual things of God, but once you allow him to bring your spirit to life, the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. I invite you to come to Him, so that you too will "KNOW" Him, instead of only knowing about Him.
Matthew 7:23 (NKJV)
23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
John 14:26 (NKJV)
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.
John 17:20-24 (NKJV)
20 "I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word;
21 that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
22 And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one:
23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
24 Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
Romans 8:15-17 (NKJV)
15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, "Abba, Father."
16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
17 and if children, then heirs--heirs of God and joint heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him, that we may also be glorified together.
_________________
Titus 2:13
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:20 am Post subject: Re: Then you you only know what you have been told. |
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| VCO wrote: | | Knowledge of the Holy Trinity has MUCH MORE to do with a personal relationship with HIM, than how many verses you can find. I do not teach religion, I teach an intimate personal relationship Jesus Christ as LORD (Master), the second person in the Holy Trinity. We do not believe in but ONE GOD, and that ONE God is the Holy Trinity.[/color] |
You perpetuate a false doctrine and compound it with a 'I feel good' so I must be right even though I can't find it in the Bible except by 'inferring and stretching whatever I can twist to suit me'
| VCO wrote: | John 8:57-59 (NKJV)
57 Then the Jews said to Him, "You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?"
58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM." |
Where does it say 'I was?'
Christ was the result of the word made flesh, not the originator of the divine plan. As he himself said, "I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me." (John 8:42). (Wrested Scriptures)
Jesus is proclaiming his preeminence nothing more, because the Bible also tells us that God gave Life to Jesus and you can't 'give life' to a Jesus that already literally preexists. Proof: -
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; (John 5:26) KJV
| VCO wrote: | | I have a deep personal love relationship with Jesus, He is in me, but MORE IMPORTANTLY, I am in HIM, and He is Lord! I know it is real because of the changes He has made in me. HE is the Potter, and I am the Clay. I used to get drunk every day but AFTER I surrendered control of my life to Him, HE took it away. I used to smoke cigarette after cigarette but HE took it away. I used to cuss and tell dirty jokes all the time, but HE took it away. I used to party hardy almost every night but HE took it away. I used to find the Bible the most boring book on earth, BUT HE filled me with HUNGER for the word of God. I used to be miserable MOST OF THE TIME, but HE filled me with JOY and put HIS music in my heart that bubbles out of me. I used to make fun of those I saw witnessing to others about Christ, BUT HE filled me with a Desire and Sense of URGENCY to witness more than they. I used to long for companionship, BUT NOW HE is ever my Companion, PLUS HE truly gave me a Soul Mate (married 28 years now). NO I am not a religionist teaching Trinity doctrine, . . . |
Then what do you think posting page after page of trinitarian propaganda i.e scriptures at best 'inferring' what you want them to say but don't, and using them to try to convince others is, 'if its not teaching?'
| VCO wrote: | . . . I am one who has a personal relationship with the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, and I long to share it with you. He can change your heart too. He will take your heart of stone and change it into a heart of flesh. But He does not kick the door open, He only stands at the door and knocks. You have to come to Him mourning over your sinfulness and willingly open that door to your heart, inviting Him to come in and rule over your life as LORD, and you too will become an adopted son of God.
HE is doing a much, much better job of running my life than I did. Doing things my own way only lead me to three attempts at suicide. But NOW I have more joy in my heart than I ever dreamed I could have. Without a born again spirit, you cannot know or understand the deep Spiritual things of God, but once you allow him to bring your spirit to life, the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. I invite you to come to Him, so that you too will "KNOW" Him, instead of only knowing about Him. |
I am incredibly pleased the healing that has taken place and the enormous improvement in your life and the effect that would have on those around you especially those that 'knew the old you'.
In all sincerity I say that you are misguided as to 'the trinity'
It was NEVER the Original Gospel or Doctrine of Christ and his Apostles and Followers.
It is a corrupt 'development' brought about predominantly by greedy men trying to keep power and control over the people stooping as low as 1. 'inserting corrupt text into the Bible' e.g. 1 John 5:7, 8 KJV 2. Imposing Laws of torture, burnings and death unless you yieled to their corrupt teachings.
My point 2 should in itself send you running from trinitarianism but you just 'brush it all aside' with 'oh! well, no ones perfect'
Well the Christ Adelphians (and those like them) as they are now called, have maintained Christ's Original God given Teachings (John 14:10) KJV, never changing them or altering them and never imposing atrocities of any shape or form to further their Bible based cause.
Thank you. |
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