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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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 Posted: Wed Sep 05, 2007 2:19 am Post subject: Re: The Water Baptism talk |
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Hi TonyTony
I complete agree with you that without the physical component (going down into a water-grave per Ro6 Col2) there is no symbol, hence no symbolism, so the whole water-and-spirit idea is meaningless. See also Titus 3:5 as comment on John 3:5 for why both are important.
As regards the thief: | tonytony wrote: | | No thief on a cross being crucified shortly can water baptize their self so this is the only exception with making it to heaven without water baptism given. Jesus stated the thief will be in paradise with him. Only exception but no exception outside of that. We now shut the mouth of the gainsayers. |
Maybe it's a false assumption but I'd always just assumed that he was a Jew, so up until that moment (Christ hadn't been raised yet) he'd have been covered by circumcision? 
And in any case God is tolerant - apart from the thief only the Ninevites and the Queen of Sheba are directly promised that they will be raised and in "paradise", "when Christ comes in his kingdom", and neither the Ninevites and the Queen of Sheba were circumcised either. Anyone who has the thief's excuse of being nailed to a cross when he repented is probably exempt from John 3:5. If it's "I don't want to look silly in a bathrobe" or "to do as Jesus did is legalism" etc. then that's less of an excuse. 
God bless
S. |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 7:07 am Post subject: Re: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: | Some say that water baptism is not essential to salvation. If water baptism is not, then why does the Bible declare it to be so? We have to lay aside ALL TRADITIONS and ideas of men and look to the BIBLE alone. Now let's see what the BIBLE says about water baptism...
Mark 16:16- "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..."
John 3:5- "Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 2:38- "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS..."
Acts 22:16- "...Arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."
1 Peter 3:21- "The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US..."
So, as you can see, the BIBLE proclaims that baptism is an absolute necessity. |
"And now here is my secret, a very simple secret;
it is only with the heart that one can see rightly,
what is essential is invisible to the eye."
Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Because thw word Love loves all words,
water is a symbol of Love.
So when we repent of being in any sin of Hate by committing to being totally immersed in Love, Acts 2:38-40, 1 John 3:4, Matthew 22:36-40 and 1 John 4:16,
God symbolises that commitment to being totally immersed in Love by having us being totally immersed in water.
So.
Being in Love is what is essential. 1 Corin 13:1-3.
It is the Water of Love that washes away the sins of Hate.
Physical Water CAN clean anything EXCEPT the Hate-dirty heart:
It takes the Soap & Water of Love to clean away the dirt of Hate: DOH.
Being immersed in water is optional as with Abraham, David, etc and Cornelius...who got the Holy Spirit of Love WITHOUT being totally imersed in water. acts 10.
Being totally immersed in water WITHOUT being totally committed to being totally immersed in Love is a false baptism, in some places called a dunking or a baptism that did not take.
In those cases, what is needed is NOT re-baptism but re-pentance of the Sin of Hatred by committing self to being totally immersed in Love.
Then in that committment to being totally immersed in Love,
it does not matter the mode of baptism nor any baptism:
one committed to being in total Love can be sprinkled all over: Isa 52:15; totally immersed in water; totally circumcised, which is a redundant phrase; or not baptised nor circimcised not have any symbol since the person ahs the real thing: being totally immersed in Love ...already.smile
1 Corin 7:
18Is any man called being circumcised[or baptised]?
let him not become uncircumcised[or unbaptised].
Is any called in uncircumcision[or in unbaptism]?
let him not be circumcised [nor baptised].
19Circumcision [or baptism] is nothing,
and uncircumcision [nor unbaptism] is nothing,
but the keeping of the commandments of God.
20Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.
So rather than asking people if they are baptised, we shd ask them if they are in Love,
or
have you repented of the sin of hatred for yourself and all others by committing yourself to Love of yourself as all others.
Totally immersed in essential Love, and in water or in circimcision or in sprinkles as a bonus option,
atoz |
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antiaging
Little Goldfish
Joined: 17 Sep 2007
Posts: 51
Location: New Orleans LA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 20, 2007 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: | Some say that water baptism is not essential to salvation. If water baptism is not, then why does the Bible declare it to be so? We have to lay aside ALL TRADITIONS and ideas of men and look to the BIBLE alone. Now let's see what the BIBLE says about water baptism...
Mark 16:16- "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..."
John 3:5- "Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 2:38- "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS..."
Acts 22:16- "...Arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."
1 Peter 3:21- "The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US..."
So, as you can see, the BIBLE proclaims that baptism is an absolute necessity. |
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be with Him in paradise. The thief on the cross got saved and was not baptized.
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
It says he that believeth not shall be damned. It does not say, he that is baptized not shall be damned.
John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Born of water is refering to born of flesh in the next verse. When a woman has a baby in child birth, alot of liquid that comes out before the baby, looks like water. The amniotic fluid. That is why when a woman has a baby they say her water broke.
You should get baptized if you have the opportunity to do it. There is a scripture that says that he that knows to good and does not do it, to him it is sin.
James 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
But, a person may get saved on his death bed, or out in a desert with no water, and he is dying of thirst, without getting baptized, because he doesn't have the opportunity to do it. The thief on the cross did not have the opportunity to do it. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2708
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 6:01 am Post subject: Re: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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Every one of God's commandments is important.
Water Baptism, is just as important to getting into heaven, as the 7th day sabbath .....or, "Thou shalt not Covet".....or, what a person eats or drinks.
It is works...AFTER, being saved from sin.....that will determine whether a person is allowed into heaven or not.
Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
Baptism, is symbolic to having died to rebelling against God's Laws.
Coming up out of the water, is symbolic to living a new life. |
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simplychristian
Newbie Alert
Joined: 03 Dec 2007
Posts: 2
Location: Arkansas
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| Posted: Mon Dec 03, 2007 8:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Anywhere in the Bible that salvation and baptism are mentioned together-baptism comes before salvation. A more accurate translation would have been immersion instead of baptism. (however i am no scholar) Baptism is the only way for someone to come in contact with blood of Jesus. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2708
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 4:36 pm Post subject: |
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| simplychristian wrote: | | Anywhere in the Bible that salvation and baptism are mentioned together-baptism comes before salvation. A more accurate translation would have been immersion instead of baptism. (however i am no scholar) Baptism is the only way for someone to come in contact with blood of Jesus. |
In light of what you said here....explain the thief on the cross situation, OK ? |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| simplychristian wrote: | | Anywhere in the Bible that salvation and baptism are mentioned together-baptism comes before salvation. A more accurate translation would have been immersion instead of baptism. (however i am no scholar) Baptism is the only way for someone to come in contact with blood of Jesus. |
I have reference books [lexicons, concordances, etc] that would say that the more 'accurate' translation of Baptizo is to wash.
I know of none that say: "to immerse'. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2708
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:29 am Post subject: |
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| galen wrote: |
I have reference books [lexicons, concordances, etc] that would say that the more 'accurate' translation of Baptizo is to wash.
I know of none that say: "to immerse'. |
Yes, Baptism, is symbolic of having ones sins 'washed' away. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Yes, Baptism, is symbolic of having ones sins 'washed' away. |
Yes, over centuries of use it has came to be symbolic of that.
However the word it self is still the word meaning "to bathe"
Nowhere is it translated "immersion". |
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Mct01
Newbie Alert
Joined: 18 Jan 2008
Posts: 1
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| Posted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 3:15 pm Post subject: |
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In light of what you said here....explain the thief on the cross situation, OK ?
He died under the old law, it wasn't a command they Jews didn't have to be baptized and neither did anyone else under the old law, its that simple |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sun Jan 20, 2008 7:23 am Post subject: |
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| Mct01 wrote: | In light of what you said here....explain the thief on the cross situation, OK ?
He died under the old law, it wasn't a command they Jews didn't have to be baptized and neither did anyone else under the old law, its that simple |
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Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise.
:44 And it was about the sixth hour, and there was a darkness over all the earth until the ninth hour. |
Jesus during His earthly ministry to the Jews forgave many people of their sins. His authority and power is what upset the religious leaders. How dare Jesus 'forgive'? [Was their thought.]
We know today that Jesus is the son of God, and was walking in God's power.
The 'malefactor' who recognized Jesus as innocent and defended him while they both were hanging there, he was promised: "Verily I say unto thee Today, shalt thou be with me in paradise."
So we know that sometime in the future, after they were both hanging there, that malefactor will be in paradise with Jesus. |
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Maverick1337
Goldfish
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject: Re: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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| HolyGhostPower wrote: | Some say that water baptism is not essential to salvation. If water baptism is not, then why does the Bible declare it to be so? We have to lay aside ALL TRADITIONS and ideas of men and look to the BIBLE alone. Now let's see what the BIBLE says about water baptism...
Mark 16:16- "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved..."
John 3:5- "Except a man be born of WATER and of the Spirit he CANNOT enter into the kingdom of God."
Acts 2:38- "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION OF SINS..."
Acts 22:16- "...Arise, and be baptized, and WASH AWAY THY SINS, calling on the name of the Lord."
1 Peter 3:21- "The like figure whereunto even BAPTISM DOTH ALSO NOW SAVE US..."
So, as you can see, the BIBLE proclaims that baptism is an absolute necessity. |
Mark - This I believe goes hand in hand with the Book of James - and being Baptized with Holy Spirit and not water.
John - Being BORN of Water (bodies) and Spirit, not being SAVED of Water or reborn of water - which means we cannot be saved as we are. Something must change withen.
Acts - Again baptized of spirit - Water cannot wash away sins - its a metaphore.
Peter - You left out the whole idea of that sentence. If you typed out the rest, it'd say otherwise.
1 Peter 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God)by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Why do I think its not necessary? Nothing I've read so far says "Baptized by physical water". I believe its symbolic. Only thing we need is Jesus. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 12:56 pm Post subject: Re: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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| Maverick1337 wrote: | ...
Why do I think its not necessary? Nothing I've read so far says "Baptized by physical water". I believe its symbolic. Only thing we need is Jesus. |
I do not see it as purely symbolic, I think that on some level there is a baptism of spirit that happens when we are born again as spirit beings, as the sons of God. |
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Maverick1337
Goldfish
Joined: 18 Nov 2007
Posts: 64
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 1:40 pm Post subject: Re: Water Baptism is ESSENTIAL to salvation! |
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| galen wrote: | | Maverick1337 wrote: | ...
Why do I think its not necessary? Nothing I've read so far says "Baptized by physical water". I believe its symbolic. Only thing we need is Jesus. |
I do not see it as purely symbolic, I think that on some level there is a baptism of spirit that happens when we are born again as spirit beings, as the sons of God. |
Yes, yes yes!!  That was my intended point, but I was in a rush >.<
Baptism in spirit is essential, yes by all means, but water? I don't believe so. |
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galen
Ferret
Joined: 22 May 2005
Posts: 115
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Wed Mar 12, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject: |
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With the coming of the greater, the lesser went away.
Or was superceded. |
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