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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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 Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | I did make a mistake, and I see your point on my definition of Faith, just because I believe in the evidence given for the unseen, I sometimes interchange the words. Sorry for the confusion. |
No problem; it’s easily done. 
| james wrote: | You asked:
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question of how you proceed if there is missing evidence so that you are unable to completely verify a book from external evidence. What then?
After much thought, I had to examine the foundational belief for why I believe the Bible is without error, what was it that truely convinced me? And my answer is TRY IT. This is the only way for you yourself to be convinced is to live for God, live a Christian life, put to work the Biblical principals for living and see if there is not a change that comes about in your life. Put to test the promises of God and see if there not so.
I can look back at how my life was before and after and see evidence of a change that truely came about, changes that the Bible promises, a true peace from within, a pureness of love for others that I can not explain. Argenta I was a violent, angry person who did 7 1/2 years in prison for Attempted Murder and Assault and I enjoyed the rush from that anger, it was like a drug. Today I am nothing like that totally opposite and I give all the Glory to God and His Word for making a better person. All His promises are mine and He has fulfiilled them to me He has never left me nor forsaken me.
This is why I know the Bible is without error, because I live it and know it is the LIVING WORD OF GOD, just as applicable to life today as it was back then. And this is why I will never retract my statement.
Argenta the only way you can get the "evidence" you search for is to whole heartedly accept Christ into your heart and believe on Him. And His Word comes alive to you, it is then you will see how true and inerrant the whole Word of God is.
With Brotherly Love
james |
I am truly delighted that your life has improved so much and thank you for sharing your experience with us.
Although the Bible worked for you, the conclusions you draw may not be correct.
You say “what was it that truely convinced me? And my answer is TRY IT.” So your logic is, it worked for me therefore it must be true. Well no, it does not follow that it must be true because it worked for you. Consider one piece of evidence. Other Holy books have been shown to have similar effects, say the Koran or the Vedas. Because there are contradictions between these three books, the fact they all work cannot be because they are all true. It must be something else about belief or religious experience that has a beneficial effect for some people. It may even be that people can come to feel loved and valued through their religious experience. I don’t claim to know how this works but I know the Bible is not unique in its ability to transform people’s lives.
So it is a fallacy to say that because something works it must be true. I’ve heard Sam Harris explain it like this. You meet a short guy and he says, “Do you know I’m 6’ 2” tall?” Surprised you ask, “Why do you say that?” He says, “Well, it makes me feel better, I feel more confident, more important, more attractive. It makes me happier and I think I do better at work.” 
Your beliefs can completely change your attitudes and behaviour—and they don’t even have to be true!
You say, “This is why I know the Bible is without error…”
This just does not follow from the evidence you presented. You may find the Bible inspirational or beautiful or insightful but you cannot rationally claim it is inerrant. Imagine that the Bible has just one error and you are unaware of it. Would you still have experienced the transformation you described? I think you would have, so it cannot be the Bible’s inerrancy that helped you.
Your story is wonderful but it does not prove the Bible has ANY truth much less that it is inerrant (please note I am NOT claiming the Bible is totally false; I am just saying your test does not prove anything about its truth).
If you are to make a rational claim that the Bible is inerrant you need a better test. We have two test so far; contradictions and external evidence. Both of these are valid tests but, I’m afraid I cannot add your experience to the list because it just does not prove anything. Do you have anything else?
Love
Argenta
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John R Nolan
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Location: Elimbah, Qld. Australia
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: PROOFS 3 |
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[quote="Argenta"] | John R Nolan wrote: | | Now we find that what is sought, Argenta, is possibly a system, a means by which one can authenticate, to personal satisfaction, the inerrancy of any piece of literature. |
It may be a system or it may not be. I won’t prejudge it. What I am seeking is a way of testing a claim of inerrancy that would satisfy a rational, intelligent and impartial observer. And I’m seeking a way of testing that gives an answer “beyond reasonable doubt”—I appreciate that absolute proof is likely to be unattainable and not really necessary.
| John R Nolan wrote: | Whether your quest is to support a personal point of view, [snip]
Maybe later we can examine the prophecies that impress you in the Bible using my six tests but for now I’d like to get a conclusion on the inerrancy question. Do you have any other tests John?
Love
Argenta |
Very thought provoking questions you have for us, Argenta, and my personal ability to resolve your quandry is limited by my human-ness and the impossibility of imparting FAITH to one who may not have that characteristic as part of their inherent nature.
None the less, this response may provide some options in analysis, or may demonstrate the inadequacy one has to satisfy your requests.
We will presume the onus for proof of guilt is on the prosecutions side, as with our law, and may we request that all evidence presented by the prosecution be open to critical analysis and validation using the criteria set by the prosecutor.
James, another contributor, suggested one need try the Christian walk to experience and comprehend the intricate, stimulating and amazing depths it offers, which is good, but, again, does not address the question, which is to establish inerrancy of your book.
Could I seek the qualifications, you as the author, have to make whatever claims are made in your book?
Would you provide me with indisputable proof that you have the ability to write such a book and claim inerrancy?
As a Christian, I have found it far more sensible and satisfying to challenge those who question the Book I believe is innerant, to conclusively prove where there is any fault in my chosen Book.
The onus is on the questioner to make a case, not on myself to prove anything.
On what basis are you asking readers of your book to accept your protestations as inerrant and what validation do you provide to allay the readers concerns that your data may or may not be established on questionable sources?
It would of course be essential for the reader to research the claims you have made in your book, in accordance with the criteria you have sugggested previously.
This has been done continuously to my chosen Book, by many scholars, religious fanatics and devils since Moses wrote the Law, which was pre-dated by the writings of Job, and has not ceased since.
Would your book have survived the many attempts at annihilation, which my Book has experienced, if it were even 100 years old, let alone 4,000 years?
One would then consult with others who may or may not be able to provide alternate information which may or may not validate the claims made in your book.
One would seek to establish if people considered your book worthy to die for; though that may be a questionable criteria; people having been known to murder, maim and destroy innocent bystanders, men, women and children, and themselves, for books, such as the koran, a book written by a man, without any vindication or evidence of authenticity.
Would you be prepared to give your life to testify to authenticate the innerancy of your book?
Millions of Christians, throughout the Dark Ages were murdered, in the most horrific ways, by religious fanatics, members of the church of Rome and the church of England, (see Foxes Book of Martyrs, Smuckers Glorious Reformations) solely because of their absolute belief in the innerancy of our Book.
Would you and your readers be willing to submit to the tortures and demonic destruction, at the hands of the 'church' as have those, (over 68,000,000 Christians) who were slaughtered by the 'church' and the monarchy during the Dark Ages?
Would your book have been the world's number one selling Book for at least 400 years?
If it were innerant, and satisfied the criteria now set, I may even buy a copy, but, as with any book, the onus is on YOU to prove your book is innerant, not me that mine is.
My friend, Argenta, I don't know if these thoughts will in any way provide what you seek, if not, I doubt there is much else one can offer to help you in your search.
God bless you and good luck.
I just find it easier to believe what has been, even as recently as the 1950's through to 1965, irrefutably vindicated by the Author of the Book I believe.
In love
John |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| John R Nolan wrote: | | Very thought provoking questions you have for us, Argenta, and my personal ability to resolve your quandry is limited by my human-ness and the impossibility of imparting FAITH to one who may not have that characteristic as part of their inherent nature. |
I’m afraid you’ve puzzled me a little John: you say your human-ness denies you the ability to determine if a book is inerrant yet you seem to be unshakeably convinced that your book IS inerrant. Why?
It seems you are asserting that there is no epistemological way to determine inerrancy of a book so you rely on faith. So for you, faith is a way to believe something that would be implausible through rational means. Is that your position John? If faith is a way of over-riding ones reason, I’m rather glad you do not have a way imparting it to me!
| John R Nolan wrote: | None the less, this response may provide some options in analysis, or may demonstrate the inadequacy one has to satisfy your requests.
We will presume the onus for proof of guilt is on the prosecutions side, as with our law, and may we request that all evidence presented by the prosecution be open to critical analysis and validation using the criteria set by the prosecutor. |
Remember, in a court, the prosecutor is the one who is making a claim that the defendant is guilty and therefore is responsible for proving that claim. You hold a belief (that the Bible is inerrant) and I am simply asking you why. It is obviously up to you to explain why you hold that belief. And it’s quite fair for me to critically analyse your reasons. You are making a claim—not me.
| John R Nolan wrote: | | James, another contributor, suggested one need try the Christian walk to experience and comprehend the intricate, stimulating and amazing depths it offers, which is good, but, again, does not address the question, which is to establish inerrancy of your book. |
True.
| John R Nolan wrote: | Could I seek the qualifications, you as the author, have to make whatever claims are made in your book?
Would you provide me with indisputable proof that you have the ability to write such a book and claim inerrancy? |
Returning to my original question, I’m afraid my book has many authors; they are all deceased and I’m not entirely sure who they all were anyway.
In any case, knowing who the author was does not help you to decide whether or not my book is inerrant. What if I say the author was Einstein or Aristotle, arguably two of the finest minds in human history. Would that help you decide my book was inerrant? Of course not—both great men have been shown to have made errors.
| John R Nolan wrote: | As a Christian, I have found it far more sensible and satisfying to challenge those who question the Book I believe is innerant, to conclusively prove where there is any fault in my chosen Book.
The onus is on the questioner to make a case, not on myself to prove anything. |
If someone claims your book has errors, I agree it is for them to demonstrate the errors but if you claim it is error-free it is up to you to demonstrate that it is.
| John R Nolan wrote: | | On what basis are you asking readers of your book to accept your protestations as inerrant and what validation do you provide to allay the readers concerns that your data may or may not be established on questionable sources? |
I am not asking anyone to believe my book is inerrant; check what I said,
| Argenta wrote: | | “If someone approached you holding a 1,000 page book in his hand and told you that the book had been written over several thousand years by many different authors and went on to claim that his book was inerrant, how would you validate (or invalidate) his claim?” |
| John R Nolan wrote: | | It would of course be essential for the reader to research the claims you have made in your book, in accordance with the criteria you have sugggested previously. |
I agree but we still haven’t resolved how to proceed in areas where we can find no evidence.
| John R Nolan wrote: | This has been done continuously to my chosen Book, by many scholars, religious fanatics and devils since Moses wrote the Law, which was pre-dated by the writings of Job, and has not ceased since.
Would your book have survived the many attempts at annihilation, which my Book has experienced, if it were even 100 years old, let alone 4,000 years? |
Let’s assume that many people over many years have examined my book and have been able to find no errors; does that make it inerrant. Absolutely not! Next week someone new may look at it and find an error. (I do accept though that such scrutiny would give you some justified confidence that the book is pretty good—but it would not prove inerrancy.)
To talk about the Bible for a moment, it is not true that all who have studied it have concluded that there are no errors. The book is highly controversial and many scholars, including Christian scholars, have found what they regard as errors. Perhaps we can talk about this later?
| John R Nolan wrote: | One would seek to establish if people considered your book worthy to die for; though that may be a questionable criteria; people having been known to murder, maim and destroy innocent bystanders, men, women and children, and themselves, for books, such as the koran, a book written by a man, without any vindication or evidence of authenticity.
Would you be prepared to give your life to testify to authenticate the innerancy of your book? |
As you point out John Muslims regularly destroy their own lives for the Koran. You are right, the fact that people are prepared to die for a book says nothing about its inerrancy.
| John R Nolan wrote: | | Would your book have been the world's number one selling Book for at least 400 years? |
The second best selling book of all time is Quotations from Mao Zedong the third best selling book is the Koran. You are not proposing that selling hundreds of millions of copies is indicative of inerrancy are you? Of course not, that makes no sense.
| John R Nolan wrote: | If it were innerant, and satisfied the criteria now set, I may even buy a copy, but, as with any book, the onus is on YOU to prove your book is innerant, not me that mine is.
My friend, Argenta, I don't know if these thoughts will in any way provide what you seek, if not, I doubt there is much else one can offer to help you in your search. |
If I were making that claim I would agree that the onus is on me to substantiate it but, of course, I am not. I asked the question because some Christians claim the Bible is inerrant, so I assumed they have a method for determining inerrancy. But it seems they do not (at least none has offered adequate tests so far).
Should I take it then that claims made by Christians that the Bible is inerrant (and similar claims made by Muslim for the Koran) are unsupported and worthless and should therefore be disregarded by thinking people?
If you agree with this conclusion, we could move on to other questions—I have several I’d like to ask you.
Love
Argenta
_________________
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 12:54 pm Post subject: |
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Argenta,
I do not know if you answered this question yet, please forgive me if it has already been asked, but what errors do you find in the Bible ?
It would be reasonable, it seems, that if a person is asking for proof that a book is inerrant, that such a person would have read this book and found descrepency's.
Also I would like to mention this book was written by God, as we believe. He guided each man through His Spirit to pen what He wanted them to write. They were nothing more than Gods scribes. The author of the Bible is God and not 40 different men. This is what sets the Bible apart from any other book written. |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | I do not know if you answered this question yet, please forgive me if it has already been asked, but what errors do you find in the Bible ? |
This is difficult to answer as it depends on how you read the book. For example, if the creation story is read as literal truth there is quite overwhelming external evidence that it cannot be true. However, if it is seen as metaphor then I suspect its truth is just a matter of opinion.
There are plenty of errors and contradictions if you read the book literally but there is an army of apologists who argue that when it is not read literally, or when the words are assumed to have a different meaning from how we normally understand them, the contradictions go away.
Here is just one example:
Matthew 24:35 says that the earth will not last forever: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.” In different words, 2 Peter 3:10 confirms that the earth will not last forever: “The heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.” However, Ecclessiastes 1:4 insists that the earth will last forever: “One generation passeth away, and another generation cometh: but the earth abideth for ever.”
No doubt someone somewhere will have an "explanation" for this contradiction but when you read the explanations some of them are reminscent of someone claiming black is really white.
| james wrote: | | Also I would like to mention this book was written by God, as we believe. |
What evidence do you have for that belief?
Love
Argenta
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 5:33 pm Post subject: |
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| I do not know of any work in which a single thought, common goal, or a way of life could be compiled by 40 different authors living centuries apart, into ONE COMPLETE BOOK, and each work compliment the other so well. It compliments itself so well it seems as if it was written by a single author with a single thought. The cultural and social changes through the centuries would make this very difficult or even impossible. |
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John R Nolan
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Location: Elimbah, Qld. Australia
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| Posted: Sat Nov 17, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: Innerancy 4 |
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Again Argenta, you have put paid to the points made in my previous submissions, and the question posed by yourself may well be un-answerable, using the criteria as applied to a book written by yourself or others.
Yes, I do place my faith in a Book which cannot be irrefutably proven to be inerrant, though, to this date, no displays of error have been proven.
Yes, Christians can, by using our Book, wriggle our way out of any debate, being able to claim Diplomatic immunity, being emmisaries from another dimension, and it is just as well we can utilize such an out.
The book we are surmizing about, which was written by unknown authors, all of whom are now no longer accessible in this dimension, your mighty work, for which you are claiming inerrancy, is now impossible to authenticate, thus, if we are to believe it, we are to place trust in the integrity, wisdom and authority of those who wrote it.
For either you or I to board a plane, with intention of being flown to a distant location, is an act which requires faith in the aircraft, the pilot, ground crew, etc.
Yes, there are specific laws governing aerodynamics, thrust, combustion, gravity, which can be calculated, giving us information which, according to those relative laws will provide us with fast, safe travel betwixt two points.
That is, of course, allowing that there will be no unforseen changes to the relative laws applicable to flight, which, hopefully, will not be altered while we are airborne.
If there were to be a sudden change to the strength of gravity, we may find our laws are no longer applicable.
In fact, if we proceed beyond the gravitational field surrounding this planet, we discover that the law of gravity, aerodynamics and such undergo changes which negate the previously respected laws.
A French scientist, in the 1800's declared that if a vehicle exceeded the speed of 40 m.p.h. the vehicle would leave the face of the earth.
This law also has proven to be inaccurate, so we find that what ever laws we utilise to regulate our present situation, outside this dimension those laws no longer apply.
In analysing a piece of literature, such as your book, it is necessary for me to apply the laws of research, contemplation, deduction and faith, if I am to accept it as a book which is inerrant, but it will be necessary to allow a margin of possible error, on account of interpretation.
To irrefutably prove any piece of scientific research, any statements on any topic to be inerrant is impossible, thus Christians accept our Book, on faith in It's Author.
As you would understand, the Theory of Relativity is only relative in this dimension, and disappears once we delve into sub-atomic calculations, etc.
Albert Einstein, it is reported, stated that the only thing his work had done was prove there had to be a GOD.
Newton, as with many other scientists concede they are only playing with toys, elements, which have been provided from an "UNKNOWN?" Source.
So there is little chance either yourself nor I will ever be capable of proving inerrancy in any field, let alone Spiritual.
Have to go, will continue this later.
John |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:15 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | I do not know of any work in which a single thought, common goal, or a way of life could be compiled by 40 different authors living centuries apart, into ONE COMPLETE BOOK, and each work compliment the other so well. It compliments itself so well it seems as if it was written by a single author with a single thought. The cultural and social changes through the centuries would make this very difficult or even impossible. |
What other books complied by 40 different authors living centuries apart have you compared the Bible with? Have you looked at the Vedas and many other sacred Hindu texts? They are not one book (although they could be published as one book) but they seem to meet your other criteria. What do you think?
Love
Argenta
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 9:41 am Post subject: |
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| John R Nolan wrote: | | Again Argenta, you have put paid to the points made in my previous submissions, and the question posed by yourself may well be un-answerable, using the criteria as applied to a book written by yourself or others. |
You are very gracious.
| John R Nolan wrote: | | Yes, I do place my faith in a Book which cannot be irrefutably proven to be inerrant, though, to this date, no displays of error have been proven. |
This raises another question John. You have a book that you appear to be convinced is inerrant yet, by your own admission, you have no way to be sure that is true. The clincher for you is faith. Faith takes you from the rational position of not believing your book in inerrant to the non-rational position of being certain it is. Please explain how faith does this for you.
More precisely, how does faith serve reliably to distinguish truth from falsity?
| John R Nolan wrote: | | Yes, Christians can, by using our Book, wriggle our way out of any debate, being able to claim Diplomatic immunity, being emmisaries from another dimension, and it is just as well we can utilize such an out. |
Yes Christian wriggling can put worms to shame! But, of course, they are not uniquely guilty of that; I seem Muslims and Hindus wriggle very effectively too! I even heard a guy defending the existence of Father Christmas using similar techniques and guess what? No-one could find an argument that he could not wriggle around!
But underneath this is a more serious issue. The honest approach to enquiry is to go where the evidence takes you. This means you have to be prepared to change your mind (unless you are perfect you could be wrong). But the displays of wriggling we see from Christians are more consistent with seeking to defend a prejudice than honestly seeking the truth, don’t you agree?
I assume your “emmisaries from another dimension” remark is tongue-in-cheek but, if not, please explain what it means and how you know this.
| John R Nolan wrote: | | The book we are surmizing about, which was written by unknown authors, all of whom are now no longer accessible in this dimension, your mighty work, for which you are claiming inerrancy, is now impossible to authenticate, thus, if we are to believe it, we are to place trust in the integrity, wisdom and authority of those who wrote it. |
I don’t see how we could put trust in unknown authors. Even if we were foolish enough to do that we would still have no assurance of inerrancy.
| John R Nolan wrote: | | For either you or I to board a plane, with intention of being flown to a distant location, is an act which requires faith in the aircraft, the pilot, ground crew, etc. |
No faith is required when I board a plane. From your earlier comments it seems that you use faith as a way of believing something in the absence of evidence. I have plenty of evidence that allows me to be confident that I can board a plane with very low risk of an accident. For example, there is statistical evidence showing that flying is safer than driving a car.
| John R Nolan wrote: | A French scientist, in the 1800's declared that if a vehicle exceeded the speed of 40 m.p.h. the vehicle would leave the face of the earth.
This law also has proven to be inaccurate, so we find that what ever laws we utilise to regulate our present situation, outside this dimension those laws no longer apply. |
Your French scientist’s speculation was clearly not based on the Newtonian theory of gravity and undoubtedly would have been rejected by his peers. Did it appear in a scientific journal?
You state: “that what ever laws we utilise to regulate our present situation, outside this dimension those laws no longer apply.”
What is your evidence for believing this?
| John R Nolan wrote: | | In analysing a piece of literature, such as your book, it is necessary for me to apply the laws of research, contemplation, deduction and faith, if I am to accept it as a book which is inerrant, but it will be necessary to allow a margin of possible error, on account of interpretation. |
The issue of interpretation is very important. You cannot claim the Bible is inerrant without saying WHICH Bible and HOW you interpret the entire book. Without specifying these two factors we just do not know what it is that you are claiming is inerrant. There are a few dozen different published versions of the Bible. Comparing them I have found wording that materially changes meanings. So which Bible is inerrant? The Bible as it was originally written in Hebrew and Greek? Problem here is none of the original manuscripts survive so we cannot make any certain statements about them. So we must be talking about one of the copies or translations, but which one?
It gets even more difficult once we start talking about interpretation. Just about every verse of the Bible has been interpreted in more than one way over the years. So to state that you believe the Bible is inerrant you would have to specify a particular edition of a particular version and you would have to say what you understand each verse to mean.
It all boils down to this. To say you believe the Bible is inerrant is irrational because you have no test to validate your claim it is also meaningless because you are not specifying WHAT you believe is inerrant. So let me say this simply, the statement “I believe the Bible is inerrant” is simultaneously irrational and meaningless. Which is quite a feat! Don’t you agree John?
| John R Nolan wrote: | | To irrefutably prove any piece of scientific research, any statements on any topic to be inerrant is impossible, thus Christians accept our Book, on faith in It's Author. |
I was expecting this proposition to come up earlier but now that you’ve mentioned it, let’s consider it. This is the notion that the Bible must be inerrant because it is revelation from God. Since God is perfect, His word must also be perfect. Is that a fair summary of the argument?
Then I would just ask you to explain how you can KNOW that the Bible is revelation from God.
Love
Argenta
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james
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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Argenta,
The mythical accounts which are given of the origin of the Vedas are mutually conflicting, within it's own passages it plainly conflicts itself.
In some passages they are said to have been created by Prajapat, another will say it was created by Brahma, another by Gayatri, or by the goddess Sarasvati, or some other means all of which is from within its own text.
Not only that but mythology plays a big part of these writings and how much faith are we to put into myths ??
(Personally I am appauled at how women are to be treated according to these text) |
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John R Nolan
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Location: Elimbah, Qld. Australia
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| Posted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 4:47 pm Post subject: Inerrancy 7 |
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HEARING THEY MAY NOT UNDERSTAND
How does one prove the authenticity of the Bible?
What are the criteria one need apply to validate authenticate and prove the inerrancy, the absolute truth of the Bible, or any other book?
How does one verify that a book, whose readers claim it to be inerrant, is in fact so?
One may research the information provided within the book, compare it with data from other works, by a wide range of qualified specialists, on the topic being presented and assess whether the book you are reading is comparable in resolution to those of others who’s writing one trusts and believes to be reliable, honest, trustworthy authors.
One can, by reviewing historic records, determine if points being discussed are legitimate and verifiable by reference to time and place. Through accounts and observations by unbiased witnesses one may compile further information which may help ascertain the veracity of the book in question, but, how reliable are these witnesses?
In determining whether a book can be authenticated, or proven to be inerrant, at any level, in anyway, on the topic it addresses exposes an
editor or reader with an insurmountable problem, which we will address as we progress.
History, in itself, is, and has been since records were first taken, is completely under the control of those who control the media, the libraries, the education systems.
One may consider the order of the universe, nature, seasons, etc. to establish the need for a controlling force which keeps everything in order.
No doubt you are, Argenta, familiar with the chaos theory, and we are able to surmize that a shattered piece of glass, will not, of itself, return to its former state, nor is it likely to resolve its state of spacial chaos without external assistance.
That a seed of a specific genus knows to reproduce itself, in multiple numbers, without in any way changing its nature and character implies there is an inbuilt codification which inerrantly reproduces the specie.
Mango trees invariably produce mangoes, unless MAN starts playing around with the natural genetic code.
I believe you will agree with that, and, as we extend this concept, we find that any specie which has been genetically modified is NOT capable of natural, ongoing self perpetuation.
Could you please explain how this occurs?
What is the law and what power enforces the law causing each seed to bring forth according to its kind?
One could ask how gravity works? Is it a law that came into action of itself?
Man is atempting to date the universes, the age of the earth, to comprehend the incalcuable dimensions of the universes, where did they all come from?
Could any scientist irrefutably demonstrate how a seed from a plant can fall to the ground, die, be buried and yet, at an appointed time, for example Spring, germinate, grow and reproduce the plant of which it is a seed?
What tells a tree to drop its seed so they can be buried, to perpetuate its life?
How can a seed survive the freezing conditions of your Northern winters, and, even more relevantly, how are the fruits, which a fruit tree may produce over many years, able to fit inside one tiny little seed?
These are matters which a godless, scientific society strives to comprehend, without having to rely on an all powerful, omniscient GOD.
Why do I believe the Bible?
Because It provides answers my psyche requires and which no science books, history books nor any other psuedo spiritual books have been able give.
Let us continue a little further with our comments on the inerrancy of a book.
We have here a conundrum, as you have pointed out, man is inherently faulty in his knowledge and abilities to answer many questions; though, we have answered some, within the parameters of our environment.
Yes, flying, statistically is far safer than driving a motorcar and I much prefer to fly than use any other transport, but, flying in an aircraft is not without risk, nor, as we have seen in a recent accident in Asia, are the pilots without human failures, nor inerrant.
Providing evidence to support my belief the Bible is inerrant is dependant on my confidence in the Author, Who has stated that He cannot lie, that He is all knowing, omniscient, and that He controls all elements of His creation, purely through His spoken word.
There is no evidence to support my personal belief, it is my choice.
Through demonstrations of specific works, some call miracles, which have been performed, before many witnesses, in very public locations, GOD has displayed His powers for all who choose to look.
For myself these prove the Being performing those works has powers far beyond that of any man.
Could one ask when last, Argenta, you raised a person from the dead? Or when did you last heal some sufferer of cancer, blindness, epilepsy, etc.?
If neither yourself, nor any human beings you know are capable of performing such feats, it may be wise to examine the historic evidence which surrounded a specific ministry, in America and world wide, during the mid 1950's until 1965.
Though the Bible, (my choice is the King James, I use the Dr. Scofield notated version, and the Lamsa interpretation, as a reference point,) can be accused of errancy, in accuracy and all sorts of things, yet one has not seen any evidence, provided by scholars, scientists, philosophers nor charlatans which causes one to doubt Its authenticity.
In Scripture it is clearly explained that many are called but few chosen. We find Jesus stating, in a number of places, that the Scripture is NOT available for all to believe. Is.6:15-11; Mt.13:15; Mk.4:12; Acts 3:19, 28:27; provide a few points to support this.
Thus we need deduce many, and those may include yourself, Argenta, will never be able to understand Scripture, as they were not given the necessary facilities with which to see beyond this dimension and into the absolute which exists outside this sense limited, impoverished dimension we call time.
What is relevant is that I have no need to wriggle nor squirm my way out of anything.
In discussions with nuclear physicists, I have found it necessary to accept many of their points on faith, not having the knowledge and expertise, in that area which they have.
Faith DOES NOT serve to reliably distinguish anything, faith requires the ability to put aside one’s own faulty mental processing and step into a dimension where a superior Being provides the information, strength and wherewithal one has need of.
In my own life I have experienced things which can only be comprehended by accepting that some external force took steps to revive me, to heal me, to save me, in many dangerous situations. So I give thanks and continue on.
I call the Being Who provides for, protects and strengthens me is GOD.
I believe HE came to earth, expressed Himself in a physical form, that we could comprehend Him, and that He is the Source of ALL things.
I believe there is sufficient evidence to vindicate my belief, for, we are saved by FAITH, not knowledge, works, wisdom.
In fact, if you look to the account of what happened in the Garden at the beginning, (if you believe in a beginning,) you will see that it was man’s choice to partake of the tree of KNOWLEDGE, INSTEAD of FAITH: that screwed the whole process up.
Though it is impossible to convince any person my beliefs are true, it is really irrelevant. It is not my job to convert anyone, to insist any person believe what I believe, as Paul so aptly said, “We are fools for Christ’s sake”
Proof?
Neither you nor myself have any; opinions, we may abound in, and, we will, in the not too distant future, be able to address the Author of the Book personally, and I am sure he will be able to answer all your questions
In Christian love, John
Last edited by John R Nolan on Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total |
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John R Nolan
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 28 Sep 2006
Posts: 278
Location: Elimbah, Qld. Australia
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:48 am Post subject: Inerrancy 4 |
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[
Should I take it then that claims made by Christians that the Bible is inerrant (and similar claims made by Muslim for the Koran) are unsupported and worthless and should therefore be disregarded by thinking people?
If you agree with this conclusion, we could move on to other questions—I have several I’d like to ask you.
Love
Argenta[/quote]
Yes, Argenta, we will accept that there is no possible physical means to prove the Bible is inerrant, as with any other books, including your proposed masterpiece.
Your logic and thought process is commendable and it is unlikely you will ever get your search resolved.
There is no way we can prove the Bible is inerrant, and your point is taken.
That I chose to place my trust in a Book which cannot be proven inerrant is, in the final analysis, a personal choice based on my study, my experience and belief there is a superior power, Whom I call GOD, Who provided me with a manual to assist get through this messy, violent, insane dimension in which we are so briefly trapped.
Whether any other person believes It is irrelevant to myself.
An interesting point is that if the Bible, or any other book could be proven inerrant, everybody would be getting a copy and there would be no need for a judgement, as all would believe the same information.
Faith is "Reliance, trust in:belief founded on authority; spiritual apprehension of devine truth apart from proof; trust, loyalty; fidelity; honesty of intention" Oxford dictionary.
If there were no discrepancies in what we all believe there would be no use for Faith, and thus GOD'S expressed plan to save His children through FAITH, would be made void.
I see another short study submitted has appeared, though the relevance to our discussion is no longer of import.
Thank you for your tenacity, your point is taken; we cannot prove the Bible, nor any other book is 'inerrant' as long as we are in this dimension.
I look forward to any further questions you may have or comments you may make on the topic; then, as you suggested some time back, we can move on to other matters.
Thank you again for your debate and I concede your point of debate proven and your thoughts most stimulating and uplifting
In Christian love
John |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6365
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 6:36 am Post subject: |
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Without faith there could be no doubt.
And those who have no faith are the very manifestations of our own fruits of doubtfulness.
Those who have no faith are the seeds which we have sown with doubt and now reap of it's rewards.
It is not the fault of the faithless that they are so, but the manifestation of the truth of the doubters which have sown them.
Some are sown with doubt for the very reason of showing those who have faith or doubt what their own labours have produced.
You are the prodigy of the seed which has been sown.
and faith and doubt in either case can be administered by those who plant, those who water, and those who weed the garden.
If one was sown with faith, then is it possible for that one to become wholly doubtful?
If one was sown with doubt, it is possible for that one to become wholly faithful?
When a seed is sown, it isn't the end result of seed itself which was sown that appears, but the fruit which it becomes when it is full grown.
There are two seeds...one is faith and one is doubt.
And both are sown together so that one can be made manifest to the other for the purpose of seeing faith and doubt manifested before the eyes of the sowers of those seeds.
There is no fault in the seeds themselves, there is no fault in the fruit itself. There is no fault in the sower, or the waterer...
It is simply truth manifesting itself.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:33 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | The mythical accounts which are given of the origin of the Vedas are mutually conflicting, within it's own passages it plainly conflicts itself.
In some passages they are said to have been created by Prajapat, another will say it was created by Brahma, another by Gayatri, or by the goddess Sarasvati, or some other means all of which is from within its own text. |
I agree there are conflicts but do you not also see them in the biblical account?
Genesis 1 order of creation:
Heavens and earth
Light
Night & Day
Sky (with water above)
Dry land, seas
Vegetation
Stars, sun and moon
Water creatures
Birds
Land animals
Male and female humans
One must marvel at how light and night and day were created without a sun.
We may also feel he overdid it a bit with the heavenly bodies that were created to help humans work out the seasons and the passage of days and years—10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ stars (the huge majority of which we cannot see with the naked eye) in a universe at least 14.7 billion light-years across (light travels at 300,000 kilometres/second); seems he got carried away!
But there is a slightly different version in Genesis 2:
Plants (I think)
Human male
Land animals and birds
Human female
I think your words were "mutually conflicting" but the Bible manages it in successive chapters of Genesis--not in separate books!
| james wrote: | | Not only that but mythology plays a big part of these writings and how much faith are we to put into myths ?? |
Fascinating question. Why do you assume the Hindu books are based on myth and the Judeo Christian Bible is not? Both accounts are clearly contradicted by scientific evidence. Hindus certainly put their faith in myths and so do you!
| james wrote: | | (Personally I am appauled at how women are to be treated according to these text) |
Again I agree james. But is the Bible any better?
1. SUBORDINATION
1 Timothy 2:11-14
11 Let a woman learn in quietness with all subjection.
12 But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.
13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve;
14 and Adam was not beguiled, but the woman being beguiled hath fallen into transgression:
1 Corinthians 14:34
Let women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says.
Colossians 3:18
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.
2. INEQUALITY
A man can arbitrarily divorce a woman (but not the other way round)
Deuteronomy 24: 1
When a man taketh a wife, and marrieth her, then it shall be, if she find no favor in his eyes, because he hath found some unseemly thing in her, that he shall write her a bill of divorcement, and give it in her hand, and send her out of his house.
A woman must be a virgin when married but not a man
Deuteronomy 22:20-21
20 But if this thing be true, that the tokens of virginity were not found in the damsel;
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the harlot in her father's house: so shalt thou put away the evil from the midst of thee.
And perhaps my “favourite”, if a man rapes a woman he has the right to marry her provided he pays 50 shekels!
Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
No james, these books are not nice. They were of their times when women were subject to and often the property of men. Just like the slaves…
Love
Argenta
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:37 pm Post subject: |
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John, Your marathon posts demand a considered reply, so I'm afraid I'll have to leave it until I have a little more time. I'll get back to you!
Argenta
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God is man's deadliest invention |
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