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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5037
Location: Missouri
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 Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:30 pm Post subject: WAS JESUS RESURRECTED? DEBATE |
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This Debate is between Abdulhakeem & HeKkLeR.
Read the rules & have at it! 
If the title doesn't suit you, I can change it.
Play nice, & enjoy!! |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Abdulhakeem,
Please state the opening remarks for your case...   |
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Abdulhakeem
Little Hamster
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:49 pm Post subject: |
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Aslam aleekum (or peace be upon you) Hekkler and all brothers and sisters,
As if you noticed the topic is "WAS JESUS RESURRECTED?" not "was Jesus risen?" because one could rise such as the daughter of Jairus in Luke 8, but still is not resurrected.
Therefore, hereunder are some of arguments from the Bible that Jesus was not resurrected;
Jesus said "Just as Jonah became a miraculous sign to the people of Nineveh, so the Son of Man will be a miraculous sign to the people living today." Luke 11:30
A) Jesus promised his killers of the Jews in Luke 11:30the miracle of Jonah which is Jonah surviving death according to the Book of Jonah where Jonah remained alive when thrown into the sea, inside the whale, and when thrown out the whale. Therefore, Jesus must have survived the death.
B) Jesus not appearing to his killers of the Jews according to Acts 10:41proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be immortal according to 1 Corinthians 15:52"the dead will be raised imperishable."
C) If the disciples, who were the closest to Jesus, did not believe Jesus rose (Mark 16:11,John 20:25-27) till Jesus appeared to them face-to-face, then Jesus would have made sure to appear to the Jews to prove to them he rose immortally as said to them "after three days I will rise" in Matthew 27:63.
D) Jesus body was not washed before it was wrapped with spices inside proving Jesus did not die because according to the Jewish Burial Customs, the dead body has to be first washed then wrapped even if the Sabbath was close or the body belonged to an evil person. Had the body of Jesus been washed, such an important piece of information would have been stated clearly as the quantity of the spices was mentioned in John 19:39.
E) The angel moving the stone according to Matthew 28:2not Jesus proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to 1 Corinthians 15:43"It is raised in power."
F) The stone removal happened FIRST on Sunday when it was still dark according to John 20:1THEN Jesus came out of the tomb on Sunday morning according to Mark 16:9proving Jesus needed the stone to be removed first to come out; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to Paul 1 Corinthians 15:43"it is raised in power."
G) Jesus using the phrase "flesh and bone" in Luke 24:39after he rose proves Jesus was still mortal because the phrase "flesh and bone" in the Bible is used for mortal beings. For instance, When God used the phrase "strike his flesh and bones" of Job, Job was mortal; therefore, Jesus was mortal when Jesus used the phrase "flesh and bones" in Luke 24:39after he rose.
H) Jesus saying to his disciples in Luke 24:39 "It is I myself" proves Jesus was still the same Jesus; therefore, Jesus was not transformed.
I) Jesus eating after he rose in Luke 24:43proves Jesus body was still natural; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because 1 Corinthians 15:43says "it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body."
J) Jesus not moving the stone according to Matthew 28:2proves Jesus was not equal unto angels; therefore, Jesus was neither resurrected nor immortal because Jesus in Luke 20:36"Nor they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels" which are spirits according to Hebrews 1:14.
K) Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not equal unto angels, which are spirits according to Hebrews 1:14. Therefore, Jesus, who was not equal unto angels, was not resurrected because Jesus in Luke 20:36"Nor they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels"
L) Jesus body did not decay in the grave according to Acts 2:31which read "his body would not rot in the grave." It is only the living body that does not decay in the grave for three days period because buried because Rigor mortis (the stiffening of muscles) and livor mortis (pooling of blood) take place within 12 hours of death.
M) Jesus saying after he rose "It was necessary for the Messiah to suffer" proves Jesus only suffered; therefore, Jesus did not die because the Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Luke 24:46 which means " to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
N) Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not a spirit ; therefore, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
O) Had Jesus been resurrected, Jesus would have asked the disciples to preach the resurrection but Jesus asked them to preach the commandments according to Matthew 28:20. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Wed Nov 14, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Abdulhakeem,
Your opening remarks are in italics. My answers are in blue. (scripture is "listed/centered")
A) Jesus promised his killers of the Jews in Luke 11:30the miracle of Jonah which is Jonah surviving death according to the Book of Jonah where Jonah remained alive when thrown into the sea, inside the whale, and when thrown out the whale. Therefore, Jesus must have survived the death.
 1) Speculation due to misunderstanding of the scriptures: Matthew 12:40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
Even more so, just as with Jonas while he was in the belly of the beast, the Son of man was faithful to God's will while He was in the heart of the earth. Even more faithful than Jonas, I might add, because Jesus not only kept His faith, but continued to preach the word of God to spirits in prison; a thing that Jonas could/did not accomplish while in the beast. Hence The Lord's words in Matthew 12:41 "and behold, a greater than Jonas is here."
B) Jesus not appearing to his killers of the Jews according to Acts 10:41proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be immortal according to 1 Corinthians 15:52"the dead will be raised imperishable."
2) Totally presumptuous claim. There is nothing there to debate against, because the claim is purely speculative due to misunderstanding the scriptures or total ignorance of the scriptures. "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him?" - 1 Corinthians 2:16
C) If the disciples, who were the closest to Jesus, did not believe Jesus rose (Mark 16:11,John 20:25-27) till Jesus appeared to them face-to-face, then Jesus would have made sure to appear to the Jews to prove to them he rose immortally as said to them "after three days I will rise" in Matthew 27:63.
3) See the answer to "B".
D) Jesus body was not washed before it was wrapped with spices inside proving Jesus did not die because according to the Jewish Burial Customs, the dead body has to be first washed then wrapped even if the Sabbath was close or the body belonged to an evil person. Had the body of Jesus been washed, such an important piece of information would have been stated clearly as the quantity of the spices was mentioned in John 19:39.
4) John 19:39-40 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight.
Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. I will believe God's word over yours any and every day of the week for eternity.
E) The angel moving the stone according to Matthew 28:2not Jesus proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to 1 Corinthians 15:43"It is raised in power."
5) 1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.
F) The stone removal happened FIRST on Sunday when it was still dark according to John 20:1THEN Jesus came out of the tomb on Sunday morning according to Mark 16:9proving Jesus needed the stone to be removed first to come out; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to Paul 1 Corinthians 15:43"it is raised in power."
6) 1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.
G) Jesus using the phrase "flesh and bone" in Luke 24:39after he rose proves Jesus was still mortal because the phrase "flesh and bone" in the Bible is used for mortal beings. For instance, When God used the phrase "strike his flesh and bones" of Job, Job was mortal; therefore, Jesus was mortal when Jesus used the phrase "flesh and bones" in Luke 24:39after he rose.
See "*"
H) Jesus saying to his disciples in Luke 24:39 "It is I myself" proves Jesus was still the same Jesus; therefore, Jesus was not transformed.
7) Hebrews 13:8Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
I) Jesus eating after he rose in Luke 24:43proves Jesus body was still natural; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because 1 Corinthians 15:43says "it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body."
See "*"
J) Jesus not moving the stone according to Matthew 28:2proves Jesus was not equal unto angels; therefore, Jesus was neither resurrected nor immortal because Jesus in Luke 20:36"Nor they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels" which are spirits according to Hebrews 1:14.
8) 1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him.
K) Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not equal unto angels, which are spirits according to Hebrews 1:14. Therefore, Jesus, who was not equal unto angels, was not resurrected because Jesus in Luke 20:36"Nor they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels"
9) 1 Peter 3:22 Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him. See also "*"
L) Jesus body did not decay in the grave according to Acts 2:31which read "his body would not rot in the grave." It is only the living body that does not decay in the grave for three days period because buried because Rigor mortis (the stiffening of muscles) and livor mortis (pooling of blood) take place within 12 hours of death.
See "*"
M) Jesus saying after he rose "It was necessary for the Messiah to suffer" proves Jesus only suffered; therefore, Jesus did not die because the Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Luke 24:46 which means " to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
10) Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
N) Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not a spirit ; therefore, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
11) Ephesians 2:14 For He is our peace, Who hath made both One, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15 Having abolished in His flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in Himself of twain One new man, so making peace;
16 And that He might reconcile both unto God in One body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
18 For through Him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In Whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In Whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. See also "*"
O) Had Jesus been resurrected, Jesus would have asked the disciples to preach the resurrection but Jesus asked them to preach the commandments according to Matthew 28:20.
12) Again... total speculation that is very wrong."For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct Him?" - 1 Corinthians 2:16
Luke 24:45-48Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48 And ye are witnesses of these things.
Mark 16:15And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
1 Corinthians 1:23"We preach Christ crucified" 1 Corinthians 15:1-11 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that He was buried, and that He rose again the third day according to the scriptures:
5 And that He was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, He was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.
7 After that, He was seen of James; then of all the apostles.
8 And last of all He was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.
9 For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God.
10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
11 Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.
* For the letters "G", "I", "K", "N" Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood..."
1 Corinthians 15:50 "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God"
The blood of Jesus Christ was shed for the salvation of the world.
John 3:17 "God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved"
Matthew 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins."
Romans 5:9 "Being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him"
1 Peter 3:18 "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit"
The life of the resurrected body is in the Spirit of Christ, and no longer in blood.
The resurrected body of Christ contains flesh, bone and the Spirit of God.
James 2:26 "The body without the spirit is dead..."
Romans 8:11 "But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His Spirit that dwelleth in you"
1 Corinthians 15:42 "So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:"
44 "It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."
47-49 "The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly."
1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One.
And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in One. |
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Abdulhakeem
Little Hamster
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: |
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1) Arguments
1) The empty tomb proves Jesus was not resurrected for three reasons;
A) The angel moving the stone according to Matthew 28:2not Jesus proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to 1 Corinthians 15:43"It is raised in power."
B) The stone removal happened FIRST on Sunday when it was still dark according to John 20:1THEN Jesus came out of the tomb on Sunday morning according to Mark 16:9proving Jesus needed the stone to be removed first to come out ; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to Paul 1 Corinthians 15:43"it is raised in power."
C) The women , who were really eye-witnesses of Jesus on the cross and when was buried, went and told the disciples "they have taken the Lord" in John 20:2after the women had been told "he is risen" according to Matthew 28:7and after Jesus had appeared to them in Matthew 28:9. Jesus-was-taken according to John 20:2proves Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus-was-taken is not a sign of the resurrection body.
2) The Greek word for "resurrection" is anastasis according to Jesus in John 11:25"I am the resurrection (anastasis)" and the Greek verb is anastemi according to Jesus in Mark 12:25"When the dead rise (anastemi)." However, in reality Jesus rose (egerio) as Lazarus when he rose (egerio) according to John 12:1. Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected.
3) The women came to the tomb of Jesus to ANOINT JESUS AFTER HE WAS LAID according to Mark 16:1proves the women knew Jesus did not die because the women were real eye-witnesses when Jesus was laid in the tomb and anointing a dead body after laid is not allowed in the Jewish burial customs.
4) The women , who were really eye-witnesses of Jesus on the cross and when was buried, went and told the disciples "they have taken the Lord" in John 20:2after the women had been told "he is risen" according to Matthew 28:7and after Jesus had appeared to them in Matthew 28:9. Jesus-was-taken according to John 20:2proves Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus-was-taken is not a sign of the resurrection body.
5) Jesus saying to Mary "do not touch me" in John 20:17proves Jesus did not die because Mary went told the disciples Jesus was alive according to Mark 16:11which says "when they heard that he was alive and that he was seen by her, they did not believe."
6) Jesus saying to Mary "I did not go yet to my Father" in John 20:17proves Jesus did not die because it is a Jewish idiom that means still alive according to Genesis 15:15which says "But thou shall go to you fathers in peace; thou shall be buried in a good old age."
7) Jesus reaching the upper room according to Luke 24:35after the disciples though Jesus went first before them according to Luke 24:31proves Jesus was still mortal. Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be immortal according to 1 Corinthians 15:52.
8) After Jesus appeared to them and "their eyes were opened" in Luke 24:45then "they bowed to him" in Luke 24:52and Matthew 28:17,"but some doubted" Matthew 28:17.
9) Knowing the Gospel of John was the last written book in the New Testament in 90 AD while the resurrection was preached before 90AD, it remains a fact that the author of the Gospel of John WROTE, AFTER the disciples preached the resurrection, “They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead" according to John 20:9. And what is more important that if you read John 20:9and on, you will not find a verse which says that the disciples understood what it means “Jesus will rise from the dead" because "when they saw him, they bowed down to him, BUT SOME DOUBTED" according to Matthew 28:17.
2) Refutation
You saying "Even more so, just as with Jonas while he was in the belly of the beast, the Son of man was faithful to God's will while He was in the heart of the earth" is not true because there is nothing miraculous about a man staying three days DEAD. IT is miraculous if a man stayed three days ALIVE. Also, had the timing factor been what the sign of Jonah that Jesus was about, Jesus would have failed in fulfilling the prophecy he gave because Jesus promised to be for three days and three nights. However, Jesus was in the tomb for two days and two nights between Friday night and Sunday morning.
Jesus saying "FOR AS Jonah was a miraculous sign to the Nivivites SO ALSO will the Son of man be" in Luke 11:30 proves Jesus miracle is like Jonah's miracle, which is surviving death.
You quoting Matthew 12:41 "and behold, a greater than Jonas is here" refers to John the Baptist according to Matthew 11:11 where Jesus said " I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he."
In your course of commenting on my argument " Jesus not appearing to his killers of the Jews according to Acts 10:41proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be immortal according to 1 Corinthians 15:52"the dead will be raised imperishable" you said " Totally presumptuous claim" which is refuted by Acts 10:41 in which Peter said " He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead." Therefore, it is Biblical that Jesus did not appear except to his disciples not his killers according to Acts 10:41.
You quoting 1 Peter 3:22 "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him" is true because everything including Jesus because Jesus was subject to God as Jesus praying to God in Matthew 26:39 proves Jesus was still subject to God.
You quoting "Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" would have been applicable to Jesus if Jesus had not died.
You quoting "Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day" is true proving that Jesus only suffered; therefore, Jesus did not die because the Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Luke 24:46 which means " to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, Jesus rising from the dead does not proe Jesus died and was resurrected.
You quoting Paul words in Ephesians 2:14-22 to prove Jesus died and was resurrected is based on the Paul belief that the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50. However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not a spirit ; therefore, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
In your course of commenting on my argument "Had Jesus been resurrected, Jesus would have asked the disciples to preach the resurrection but Jesus asked them to preach the commandments according to Matthew 28:20" you said "total speculation that is very wrong" is refuted by Peter saying in Acts 10:42 " He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead."
You quoting Luke 24:45-48 to prove the existence of Jesus command to preach the resurrection is wrong as Jesus said in Luke 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" not that the resurrection should be preached.
You quoting "Mark 16:15" is not evidence of Jesus command to preach the resurrection because Mark 16:9-20 verses are not the words of Mark because they are insertions.
You quoting 1 Corinthians 1:23 and 15:1-11 are not the words of Christ as no where Jesus said go preach the resurrection.
You quoting "Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" proves Jesus did not die when blood and water came out according to John 19:34.
You quoting "1 Corinthians 15:50 "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" proves Jesus did not die because Jesus was flesh and blood after he rose as Jesus was eating after he rose to prove he was flesh and blood because no food, no blood circulation, and no life.
You quoting Paul's words in Romans 5:9 "Being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" contradicts words of Jesus in Matthew 19:17 saying "if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments."
You quoting the words of Peter1 Peter 3:18 "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" would have been true if Jesus was a spirit after he rose because the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50. However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not a spirit ; therefore, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
You quoting "1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One" is not enough because 1 John 5:7 was deleted in the Revised Standard Version because it is an insertion. |
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HeKkLeR
King Kong
Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2277
Location: Europe
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| Posted: Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Abdulhakeem wrote: | 1) Arguments
1) The empty tomb proves Jesus was not resurrected for three reasons;
A) The angel moving the stone according to Matthew 28:2not Jesus proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to 1 Corinthians 15:43"It is raised in power." |
This proves nothing. I already gave you scripture that shows that Jesus has authority over the angels: meaning authority over everything they do. The angel that moved the stone was under the authority of Jesus.
| Quote: | | B) The stone removal happened FIRST on Sunday when it was still dark according to John 20:1THEN Jesus came out of the tomb on Sunday morning according to Mark 16:9proving Jesus needed the stone to be removed first to come out ; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be raised with power according to Paul 1 Corinthians 15:43"it is raised in power." |
Again and again and again. It does not matter how many times you write the same exact thing. This issue has been desolved and resolved. Jesus Christ, the Lord, has authority over the angels, as scripture so very clearly states.
| Quote: | | C) The women , who were really eye-witnesses of Jesus on the cross and when was buried, went and told the disciples "they have taken the Lord" in John 20:2after the women had been told "he is risen" according to Matthew 28:7and after Jesus had appeared to them in Matthew 28:9. Jesus-was-taken according to John 20:2proves Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus-was-taken is not a sign of the resurrection body. |
The women stating their opinion holds no weight over the truth. For the truth was later revealed to them, and destroyed their doubt:
John 20:15-16Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
| Quote: | | 2) The Greek word for "resurrection" is anastasis according to Jesus in John 11:25"I am the resurrection (anastasis)" and the Greek verb is anastemi according to Jesus in Mark 12:25"When the dead rise (anastemi)." However, in reality Jesus rose (egerio) as Lazarus when he rose (egerio) according to John 12:1. Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected. |
Another great error due to ignorance of the scriptures. Jesus was not risen as Lazarus was. There is a great difference.
Jesus is the firstborn from the dead.
Collossians 1:18And He is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things He might have the preeminence.
| Quote: | | 3) The women came to the tomb of Jesus to ANOINT JESUS AFTER HE WAS LAID according to Mark 16:1proves the women knew Jesus did not die because the women were real eye-witnesses when Jesus was laid in the tomb and anointing a dead body after laid is not allowed in the Jewish burial customs. |
Not knowing the mind of the women (who did not have the Holy Spirit), you surely do not have authority to speak on their behalf. Yet, the Holy Bible does state that things that are not alive are to be anointed.
Exodus 30:22-32Moreover the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
23 Take thou also unto thee principal spices, of pure myrrh five hundred shekels, and of sweet cinnamon half so much, even two hundred and fifty shekels, and of sweet calamus two hundred and fifty shekels,
24 And of cassia five hundred shekels, after the shekel of the sanctuary, and of oil olive an hin:
25 And thou shalt make it an oil of holy ointment, an ointment compound after the art of the apothecary: it shall be an holy anointing oil.
26 And thou shalt anoint the tabernacle of the congregation therewith, and the ark of the testimony,
27 And the table and all his vessels, and the candlestick and his vessels, and the altar of incense,
28 And the altar of burnt offering with all his vessels, and the laver and his foot.
29 And thou shalt sanctify them, that they may be most holy: whatsoever toucheth them shall be holy.
30 And thou shalt anoint Aaron and his sons, and consecrate them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office.
31 And thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel, saying, This shall be an holy anointing oil unto me throughout your generations.
32 Upon man's flesh shall it not be poured, neither shall ye make any other like it, after the composition of it: it is holy, and it shall be holy unto you.
| Quote: | | 4) The women , who were really eye-witnesses of Jesus on the cross and when was buried, went and told the disciples "they have taken the Lord" in John 20:2after the women had been told "he is risen" according to Matthew 28:7and after Jesus had appeared to them in Matthew 28:9. Jesus-was-taken according to John 20:2proves Jesus was not resurrected because Jesus-was-taken is not a sign of the resurrection body. |
An exact repetition of your letter "C" above. Are you just copy-and-pasting this stuff from a website? If you are, I would be grateful if you at least took the time to proofread your copied arguments so as not to waste too much of my time. Thanks.
| Quote: | | 5) Jesus saying to Mary "do not touch me" in John 20:17proves Jesus did not die because Mary went told the disciples Jesus was alive according to Mark 16:11which says "when they heard that he was alive and that he was seen by her, they did not believe." |
I do not follow your logic here. What does the disciples not believing Mary have to do with Jesus telling Mary "Touch Me not"?? And again, nothing is proven here except for your ignorance of the topic.
| Quote: | | 6) Jesus saying to Mary "I did not go yet to my Father" in John 20:17proves Jesus did not die because it is a Jewish idiom that means still alive according to Genesis 15:15which says "But thou shall go to you fathers in peace; thou shall be buried in a good old age." |
Not only are you ignorant of the resurrection and God's word... but you use an ignorant version of the bible for your misunderstandings. I beg of you to NOT use the Fenton bible and Moffet translation, for they are very much corrupted and lead you to further ignorance and misunderstandings.
Please try and refrain from those translations and attempt to use others such as the KJV, NIV, Amplified, or even the NLT. If you need help, then you can find these versions/translations online at one source: www.biblegateway.com.
Anyway, the correct scripture reads:
John 20:17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
| Quote: | | 7) Jesus reaching the upper room according to Luke 24:35after the disciples though Jesus went first before them according to Luke 24:31proves Jesus was still mortal. Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be immortal according to 1 Corinthians 15:52. |
I have no idea of what you are talking about.
Luke 24:31And their eyes were opened, and they knew Him; and He vanished out of their sight.
Luke 24:35And they told what things were done in the way, and how He was known of them in breaking of bread.
| Quote: | | 8) After Jesus appeared to them and "their eyes were opened" in Luke 24:45then "they bowed to him" in Luke 24:52and Matthew 28:17,"but some doubted" Matthew 28:17. |
Luke 24:45Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
Luke 24:52And they worshipped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
Matthew 28:17And when they saw Him, they worshipped Him: but some doubted.
You seem to have things confused (of course you do). Yet, let me help you out here. The Matthew 28:17 account happened before the Luke 24:52 account. To be more specific, the Matthew and Luke accounts coincide here:
Luke 24:36-45And as they thus spake, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 And He said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39 Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself: handle Me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have.
40 And when He had thus spoken, He shewed them His hands and His feet.
41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, He said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42 And they gave Him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43 And He took it, and did eat before them.
44 And He said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45 Then opened He their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
| Quote: | | 9) Knowing the Gospel of John was the last written book in the New Testament in 90 AD while the resurrection was preached before 90AD, it remains a fact that the author of the Gospel of John WROTE, AFTER the disciples preached the resurrection, “They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead" according to John 20:9. And what is more important that if you read John 20:9and on, you will not find a verse which says that the disciples understood what it means “Jesus will rise from the dead" because "when they saw him, they bowed down to him, BUT SOME DOUBTED" according to Matthew 28:17. |
I already took care of your Matthew 28:17 mix-up. But as for: | Quote: | | if you read John 20:9and on, you will not find a verse which says that the disciples understood what it means “Jesus will rise from the dead" |
So? Scripture DOES say:
John 20:30And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book:
| Quote: | 2) Refutation
You saying "Even more so, just as with Jonas while he was in the belly of the beast, the Son of man was faithful to God's will while He was in the heart of the earth" is not true because there is nothing miraculous about a man staying three days DEAD. IT is miraculous if a man stayed three days ALIVE. Also, had the timing factor been what the sign of Jonah that Jesus was about, Jesus would have failed in fulfilling the prophecy he gave because Jesus promised to be for three days and three nights. However, Jesus was in the tomb for two days and two nights between Friday night and Sunday morning. |
If you want to debate that Jesus was even resurrected at all, then stay with that for the moment. Once your other wave of evidence (I use the term loosely) is crushed, we can come back to this.
| Quote: | | Jesus saying "FOR AS Jonah was a miraculous sign to the Nivivites SO ALSO will the Son of man be" in Luke 11:30 proves Jesus miracle is like Jonah's miracle, which is surviving death. |
No. I already addressed that. And again, your bible translation is a very bad and faulty one. It does not state "miraculous". And you saying that there is nothing miraculous about a man staying three days dead, while alive in the Spirit, then resurrecting on the third day and ascending to heaven at the right hand of God... is amazing.
| Quote: | | You quoting Matthew 12:41 "and behold, a greater than Jonas is here" refers to John the Baptist according to Matthew 11:11 where Jesus said " I tell you the truth: Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he." |
No. That is your faulty opinion according to you misunderstanding the scripture... which is pretty funny and marvelous... seeing as how it is right in front of your face.
| Quote: | | In your course of commenting on my argument " Jesus not appearing to his killers of the Jews according to Acts 10:41proves Jesus was not resurrected because the resurrected will be immortal according to 1 Corinthians 15:52"the dead will be raised imperishable" you said " Totally presumptuous claim" which is refuted by Acts 10:41 in which Peter said " He was not seen by all the people, but by witnesses whom God had already chosen—by us who ate and drank with him after he rose from the dead." Therefore, it is Biblical that Jesus did not appear except to his disciples not his killers according to Acts 10:41. |
What I stated was a "totally presumptuous claim" is your saying that Jesus not appearing before the Jews that killed Him is proof of Jesus not being resurrected. Wow! You even misundertood that easy thing. Typical... yet normal for you, it seems.
| Quote: | | You quoting 1 Peter 3:22 "Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto Him" is true because everything including Jesus because Jesus was subject to God as Jesus praying to God in Matthew 26:39 proves Jesus was still subject to God. |
Uhm. Thank you for telling me that I was correct. I know that, though. The bible tells me that in 1 Corinthians 15:27-28.
| Quote: | | You quoting "Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever" would have been applicable to Jesus if Jesus had not died. |
It is applicable to Jesus whether you like it or not, or believe it or not.
| Quote: | | You quoting "Luke 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day" is true proving that Jesus only suffered; therefore, Jesus did not die because the Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Luke 24:46 which means " to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, Jesus rising from the dead does not proe Jesus died and was resurrected. |
Let me ask you something , here: How can you only read the first part of that passage, and totally ignore the rest of that passage? It is not so long of a passage that your attention span should take a huge dent. I mean, it is only one sentence in which Jesus Christ Himself says that He must suffer, and rise from the dead the third day. How can He rise from the dead if He does not die?
| Quote: | | You quoting Paul words in Ephesians 2:14-22 to prove Jesus died and was resurrected is based on the Paul belief that the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50. However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not a spirit ; therefore, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50. |
The Ephesians 2:14-22 passages explain how Christ Jesus reconciled flesh and Spirit unto God in one body: A new man. I left it there for you to read. Maybe you did not understand. But maybe... perhaps... now you will gain an understanding of it if you read those passages again? Try it out...
| Quote: | | In your course of commenting on my argument "Had Jesus been resurrected, Jesus would have asked the disciples to preach the resurrection but Jesus asked them to preach the commandments according to Matthew 28:20" you said "total speculation that is very wrong" is refuted by Peter saying in Acts 10:42 " He commanded us to preach to the people and to testify that he is the one whom God appointed as judge of the living and the dead." |
Hmmm... and I guess the verses before that one, and including that one... and after that one did not interest you? Let me help you out, then:
Acts 10:34-43Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
35 But in every nation he that feareth Him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with Him.
36 The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (He is Lord of all:)
37 That word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;
38 How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with Him.
39 And we are witnesses of all things which He did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
40 Him God raised up the third day, and shewed Him openly;
41 Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before God, even to us, who did eat and drink with Him after he rose from the dead.
42 And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is He which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43 To Him give all the prophets witness, that through His name whosoever believeth in Him shall receive remission of sins.
Do you know what "remission of sins" means? It means that Jesus Christ died for our sins, and that the blood of Jesus Christ was shed for our sins, and that we are now justified by the blood of Christ Jesus that was shed for our sins, because Jesus Christ is our mediator, Who was resurrected by God the Father, and is the firstborn from the dead, through Whom we are saved from God's wrath against our sins, and with Whom those that believe in Him will share as brothers and sisters in His inheritance with eternal life.
That is what "remission of sins" means, and that is what He instructed His disciples to preach, and that is what is written by His Apostles in the Holy Bible, the Word of God. Get it? Got it? Good!
Luke 24:46-47And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
| Quote: | | You quoting Luke 24:45-48 to prove the existence of Jesus command to preach the resurrection is wrong as Jesus said in Luke 24:47 "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem" not that the resurrection should be preached. |
See answer above!
| Quote: | | You quoting "Mark 16:15" is not evidence of Jesus command to preach the resurrection because Mark 16:9-20 verses are not the words of Mark because they are insertions. |
What? Anyway, see the answer above.
| Quote: | | You quoting 1 Corinthians 1:23 and 15:1-11 are not the words of Christ as no where Jesus said go preach the resurrection. |
Again. See the answer above.
| Quote: | | You quoting "Leviticus 17:11 "For the life of the flesh is in the blood" proves Jesus did not die when blood and water came out according to John 19:34. |
?? You are making no sense here. You are just saying silly things to sound repetative and to add volume to your arguments.
tsk tsk tsk
| Quote: | | You quoting "1 Corinthians 15:50 "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God" proves Jesus did not die because Jesus was flesh and blood after he rose as Jesus was eating after he rose to prove he was flesh and blood because no food, no blood circulation, and no life. |
Prove where it states, anywhere in the Holy Bible that Jesus Christ was "flesh and blood" after He rose from the dead.
| Quote: | | You quoting Paul's words in Romans 5:9 "Being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him" contradicts words of Jesus in Matthew 19:17 saying "if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments." |
Again, you are just saying things that do not make any sense. Of course, it is because you cannot truly refute what I stated. 
| Quote: | | You quoting the words of Peter1 Peter 3:18 "Being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit" would have been true if Jesus was a spirit after he rose because the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50. However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not a spirit ; therefore, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50. |
I answered this stuff above, as well as before. You seem to be using your ignorance of the scriptures to justify your illegitimate arguments.
You must be really getting desperate. 
| Quote: | | You quoting "1 John 5:7-8 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost: and these three are One" is not enough because 1 John 5:7 was deleted in the Revised Standard Version because it is an insertion. |
What revised standard version? It is surely in my KJV, and is also noted in my NIV. Which "Revised Standard Version" are you speaking of? |
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Abdulhakeem
Little Hamster
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:25 am Post subject: |
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Dear Brother,
The sign of the resurrection according to Jesus in Luke 20:36 is the resurrected will be equal unto angels as Jesus "Neither they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels."
So the question is : WAS JESUS EQUAL UNTO ANGELS AFTER HE ROSE?
Let's see!
I had to reuse some of the same arguments.
MAIN ARGUMENTS
The resurrected according to Jesus will be equal unto angels in Luke 20:36 as Jesus said "Neither they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels." However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not equal unto angels, which are spirits according to Hebrews 1:14. Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected.
Also, the resurrected according to Jesus will be immortal because the resurrected will be equal unto angels in Luke 20:36 as Jesus said "Neither they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels." However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" proves Jesus was not equal unto angels, which are spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Therefore, Jesus was neither immortal nor resurrected.
According to the Bible, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45 because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
However, Jesus was flesh and bone after he rose as Jesus said in Luke 24:39 "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" proving he was not spirit; therefore, he was not resurrected because as above-proven the resurrected will be a spirit with no flesh and bone.
REFUTATIONS
You saying "The women stating their opinion hold no weight over the truth" is wrong because when the women said "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb" in John 20:2, they were not assuming because they were really eyewitnesses when Jesus was on the cross and when Jesus was laid in his tomb.
Had the women been stating their opinions when saying Jesus was taken, the Gospels writer of John would have stated it clearly that they were wrong because John 11:11-13mentioned how the disciples misunderstood the words of Jesus. But John in the case of Jesus-was-taken did not mention the women were wrong at all.
You saying "For the truth was later revealed to them, and destroyed their doubt" is refuted when realizing that the women after Jesus met Mary, Mary went to the disciples telling them Jesus was ALIVE in Mark 16:11. Of course, Jesus was ALIVE not after he had died but after he had suffered according to Luke 1:3 who said "after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." The Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Acts 1:3 means "to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
You saying "Jesus was not risen as Lazarus was. There is a great difference. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead" would have been true if Jesus was spirit because the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
You saying "Not knowing the mind of the women (who did not have the Holy Spirit), you surely do not have authority to speak on their behalf" is true, but the women after Jesus met Jesus, Mary went to the disciples telling them Jesus was ALIVE according to Mark 16:11. Of course, Jesus was ALIVE not after he had died but after he had suffered according to Luke 1:3 who said "after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." New International Version. The Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Acts 1:3 means "to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
You saying "Yet, the Holy Bible does state that things that are not alive are to be anointed" is true, but not after three days laid in tomb.
Jesus saying to Mary "do not touch me" in John 20:17 proves Jesus still got hurt because Jesus did not die yet; therefore, after Jesus met Mary, Mary went to the disciples telling them Jesus was ALIVE according to Mark 16:11. Of course, Jesus was ALIVE not after he had died but after he had suffered according to Luke 1:3 who said "after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." The Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Acts 1:3 means "to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
You saying "Please try and refrain from those translations and attempt to use others such as the KJV, NIV, Amplified, or even the NLT. If you need help, then you can find these versions/translations online at one source: www.biblegateway.com.
Anyway, the correct scripture reads" is no problem because the verses I quoted are from versions available at www.bibles.net, www.crosswalk.com, www.bible.cc.
In John 20:17, the word "ascended" means also "gone" because two translations ( Bible in Basic English and God Words Translation) at least in www.crosswalk.com, www.bible.cc use the word "gone" instead of "ascended" as follows;
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told her, "Don't hold on to me. I have not yet gone to the Father. But go to my brothers and sisters and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, I go up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
You saying "The Matthew 28:17 accounts happened before the Luke 24:52 account" is wrong the disciples worshipping Jesus did not happen twice, rather, once after Jesus appeared according to Matthew 28:17 and Luke 24:52 then the doubting took place as Matthew 28:17 says "when they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted."
You saying "your bible translation is a very bad and faulty one. It does not state "miraculous" is refuted by realizing that the New Living Translation, New International Version, and the Amplified versions, which you have recommended to me, use either "miraculous sign" or "miracle" in Luke 11:29 & 30 for the word "sign".
You saying "That is your faulty opinion according to you misunderstanding the scripture" is not my opinion; rather, what the scripture that says that " Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he" including Jesus because Jesus was among those born of women according to Matthew 11:11.
You saying "It is applicable to Jesus whether you like it or not, or believe it or not" is a circular reasoning refuted by 1 Corinthians 15. The resurrected according to the Bible will be a spirit as 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Jesus after risen "became a life-giving spirit" because as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" where the resurrection will be.
Your question to me "How can He rise from the dead if He does not die?" is answered by knowing that Jesus rising does not mean Jesus was resurrected because the daughter of Jairus rose according to Luke 8:55 ,but still did not experience death even before rising according to Luke 8:52.
You saying "The Ephesians 2:14-22 passages explain how Christ Jesus reconciled flesh and Spirit unto God in one body" is true, but the resurrected will have a spiritual body, which is a spirit. After Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:44"It is sown a physical body and it is raised a spiritual body", Paul went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
The way to Salvation according to the direct words from the mouth of Jesus was through actions as Jesus said "If you want to enter into life, keep the commandments" according to Matthew 19:17. So the remission of sins was by keeping the commandments as Jesus said in John 14:15 "If you love me keep the commandment."
Your request "Prove where it states, anywhere in the Holy Bible that Jesus Christ was "flesh and blood" after He rose from the dead" is answered by Luke 24:41-43 which read "he asked them "Do you have anything here to eat?" They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence." Jesus eating after he rose in Luke 24:43 proves Jesus body was still natural with flesh and blood; therefore, Jesus was not resurrected because 1 Corinthians 15:43 says "it is sown a natural body and raised a spiritual body." King James Version. |
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Abdulhakeem
Little Hamster
Joined: 18 Oct 2007
Posts: 78
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| Posted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Abdulhakeem wrote: | Dear Brother,
The sign of the resurrection according to Jesus in Luke 20:36 is the resurrected will be equal unto angels as Jesus "Neither they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels."
So the question is : WAS JESUS EQUAL UNTO ANGELS AFTER HE ROSE?
Let's see!
I had to reuse some of the same arguments.
MAIN ARGUMENTS
The resurrected according to Jesus will be equal unto angels in Luke 20:36 as Jesus said "Neither they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels." However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" in Luke 24:39 proves Jesus was not equal unto angels, which are spirits according to Hebrews 1:14. Therefore, Jesus was not resurrected.
Also, the resurrected according to Jesus will be immortal because the resurrected will be equal unto angels in Luke 20:36 as Jesus said "Neither they can die anymore for they are equal unto angels." However, Jesus saying after he rose "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" proves Jesus was not equal unto angels, which are spirits in Hebrews 1:14. Therefore, Jesus was neither immortal nor resurrected.
According to the Bible, the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45 because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
However, Jesus was flesh and bone after he rose as Jesus said in Luke 24:39 "For a spirit has no flesh and bone as you see me have" proving he was not spirit; therefore, he was not resurrected because as above-proven the resurrected will be a spirit with no flesh and bone.
REFUTATIONS
You saying "The women stating their opinion hold no weight over the truth" is wrong because when the women said "They have taken the Lord out of the tomb" in John 20:2, they were not assuming because they were really eyewitnesses when Jesus was on the cross and when Jesus was laid in his tomb.
Had the women been stating their opinions when saying Jesus was taken, the Gospels writer of John would have stated it clearly that they were wrong because John 11:11-13mentioned how the disciples misunderstood the words of Jesus. But John in the case of Jesus-was-taken did not mention the women were wrong at all.
You saying "For the truth was later revealed to them, and destroyed their doubt" is refuted when realizing that the women after Jesus met Mary, Mary went to the disciples telling them Jesus was ALIVE in Mark 16:11. Of course, Jesus was ALIVE not after he had died but after he had suffered according to Luke 1:3 who said "after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." The Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Acts 1:3 means "to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
You saying "Jesus was not risen as Lazarus was. There is a great difference. Jesus is the firstborn from the dead" would have been true if Jesus was spirit because the resurrected will be a spirit because 1 Corinthians said 15:45 went on to say "the last Adam (Jesus) was a life-giving spirit" after he rose proving that the term "spiritual body" in 1 Corinthians 15:44 means spirit according to 1 Corinthians 15:45because "flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" according to 15:50.
You saying "Not knowing the mind of the women (who did not have the Holy Spirit), you surely do not have authority to speak on their behalf" is true, but the women after Jesus met Jesus, Mary went to the disciples telling them Jesus was ALIVE according to Mark 16:11. Of course, Jesus was ALIVE not after he had died but after he had suffered according to Luke 1:3 who said "after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." New International Version. The Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Acts 1:3 means "to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
You saying "Yet, the Holy Bible does state that things that are not alive are to be anointed" is true, but not after three days laid in tomb.
Jesus saying to Mary "do not touch me" in John 20:17 proves Jesus still got hurt because Jesus did not die yet; therefore, after Jesus met Mary, Mary went to the disciples telling them Jesus was ALIVE according to Mark 16:11. Of course, Jesus was ALIVE not after he had died but after he had suffered according to Luke 1:3 who said "after his suffering, he showed himself to these men and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive." The Greek word of "suffering" is " Pascho" which is used by Jesus in Acts 1:3 means "to be affected or have been affected" according to the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon. Therefore, "suffering" or "Pascho" means only undergoing pain not death the KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon.
You saying "Please try and refrain from those translations and attempt to use others such as the KJV, NIV, Amplified, or even the NLT. If you need help, then you can find these versions/translations online at one source: www.biblegateway.com.
Anyway, the correct scripture reads" is no problem because the verses I quoted are from versions available at www.bibles.net, www.crosswalk.com, www.bible.cc.
In John 20:17, the word "ascended" means also "gone" because two translations ( Bible in Basic English and God Words Translation) at least in www.crosswalk.com, www.bible.cc use the word "gone" instead of "ascended" as follows;
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus told her, "Don't hold on to me. I have not yet gone to the Father. But go to my brothers and sisters and tell them, 'I am going to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"
Bible in Basic English
Jesus said to her, Do not put your hand on me, for I have not gone up to the Father: but go to my brothers and say to them, I go up to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.
You saying "The Matthew 28:17 accounts happened before the Luke 24:52 account" is wrong the disciples worshipping Jesus did not happen twice, rather, once after Jesus appeared according to Matthew 28:17 and Luke 24:52 then the doubting took place as Matthew 28:17 says "when they saw him, they worshipped him, but some doubted."
You saying "your bible translation is a very bad and faulty one. It does not state "miraculous" is refuted by realizing that the New Living Translation, New International Version, and the Amplified versions, which you have recommended to me, use either "miraculous sign" or "miracle" in Luke 11:29 & 30 for the word "sign".
You saying "That is your faulty opinion according to you misunderstanding the scripture" is not my opinion; rather, what the scripture that says that " Among those born of women there has not risen anyone greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he" including Jesus because Jesus was among those born of women according to Matthew 11:11.
You saying "It is applicable to Jesus whether you like it or not, or believe it or not" is a circular reasoning refuted by 1 Corinthians 15. The resurrected according to the Bible will be a spirit as 1 Corinthians 15:45 that Jesus after risen "became a life-giving spirit" because as it says in 1 Corinthians 15:50 "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God" where the resurrection will be.
Your question to me "How can He rise from the dead if He does not die?" is answered by knowing that Jesus rising does not mean Jesus was resurrected because the daughter of Jairus rose according to Luke 8:55 ,but still did not experience death even before rising according to Luke 8:52.
You saying "The Ephesians 2:14-22 passages explain how Christ Jesus reconciled flesh and Spirit unto God in one body" is true, but the resurrected will have a spiritual body, which is a spirit. After Paul said in 1 Cori |
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