 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
|
 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 7:01 pm Post subject: |
 |
|
Hi Argenta | Argenta wrote: | | Thank you for all this lone. But your contradictory definitions confirm my point and leave me with many questions. |
You can click www.blueletterbible.org yourself and see how the word nephesh is used:
http://cf.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H05315&Version=kjv
The Bible is a collection of 66 books written over 1500 years in various genres and three languages. It's inevitable that there will be some movement in the meaning and use of any word.
But "soul" nephesh, fundamentally means life - in man and animals, not plants. Figuratively the "soul" of a man can mean the heart or mind.
In the Bible the soul is mortal and all creatures die - inherent immortality is not a Bible concept, except for God 1Tim6:16, except:
1. in the eschatological sense of Matt10:28 where Christ says fear not those who can kill the soul/life (in this time), but fear God who can destroy the soul/life (in the future) in Gehenna.
2. There is also one verse Rev6:9 which gives the Greek, Platonistic, sense of soul as "immortal dead people" - the "souls under the altar" in John's vision.
These two verses are usually taken as the foundation verses for the immortality of the soul - although taken literally they would appear contradict the rest of the uses of "soul" in Bible. I'm not sure if there may be a third immortal soul verse.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Steven3 wrote: | | These two verses are usually taken as the foundation verses for the immortality of the soul - although taken literally they would appear contradict the rest of the uses of "soul" in Bible. I'm not sure if there may be a third immortal soul verse. |
We should probably distinguish three nodes on the spectrum of immortality and mortality for a soul (psuche, nephesh):
1. That the soul is irrevocably extinguished at death.
2. That the soul is immortal but can be destroyed.
3. That the soul is intrinsically immortal. In this view, even God cannot destroy a soul.
The first and second interpretations are compatible with certain biblical passages. The third is the Platonic view, which is I believe not supported directly anywhere in the bible. However, by the sixth century AD the third view was emerging as a consensus opinion from the battle between Christianity and non-Christian neoplatonism. I suggest that Rev 6:9 is interpretation 2, which is not particularly Platonic. As I suggested to Argenta, I think interpretation 2 may have emerged from another battle: between Judaism and Zoroastrianism in the Persian empire of the second temple period.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:59 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi Argenta,
| Quote: | | Thank you for all this lone. But your contradictory definitions confirm my point and leave me with many questions. |
just sharing the definition of "soul" from the blue letter bible. thought it might help.
hugs
lone |
Thank you lone. It does help to show that whilst the Bible uses the term it does not demonstrate a coherent understanding of it.
Love
Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:37 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Plotinus wrote: | | Argenta wrote: |
I find it perplexing that you can comment on the qualities and functions of a soul without knowing how to define it or what it is.
|
Fair enough. But the belief ... |
Hi Plotinus, I find myself in much agreement with your points--I won't even resist your Loki's fallacy challenge too strongly... 
I do think there is a big difference though between the beliefs of "everyday" Christians and the beliefs of Theologians, philosophers and scientists on this matter. All the Christians (and Muslims) that I know personally believe passionately that humans have a soul though they do not know what it is or where it is or how it works and have no evidence for believing it. Oh well...
Love
Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1049
Location: Canada
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 8:19 am Post subject: |
|
|
| Argenta wrote: | | I do think there is a big difference though between the beliefs of "everyday" Christians and the beliefs of Theologians, philosophers and scientists on this matter. All the Christians (and Muslims) that I know personally believe passionately that humans have a soul though they do not know what it is or where it is or how it works and have no evidence for believing it. Oh well... |
Yes, it is true that there is a difference between the beliefs of "everyday" Christians and theologians, etc. Similarly, the "everyday" people might tell you that Newton discovered gravity too, which of course he didn't.
As far as the soul is concerned, one might simply understand it is as the "mind's I" to use Hofstader's expression. However, one understands it one can then believe it exists (unless one's name is Dennett  ).
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3255
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
|
| Posted: Sun Oct 28, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: Re: What is a soul? |
|
|
| wayfarerfound wrote: | Dear Friends,
Recently a new fall show was advertised where the main character had his soul sold to the devil by his parents. So, in consideration of the subject, what is a soul? |
A soul is a combination of a physical body, and the life-force, from God (Breath of Life).....
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
So, if there is no body...there is no soul.
If the body exists, without the life force in it....there is no soul.
And God DID NOT create any such thing, as man having an 'immortal soul', within man.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
JimD
Bear Cub
Joined: 05 Nov 2007
Posts: 638
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:38 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| lone-traveler wrote: | Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.
Luk 1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
I'm thinkin that the soul is the spirit...
hugs
lone |
I'm thinkin you are on the right track but is this scripture saying one body and one breath (spirit in most translations) = one soul? if this is true then a soul is a complete person with a body and a spirit, if you read the scripture with this in mind it makes sense almost 100% of the time. What do you think?
The problem is the scripture in a few places refers to a spirit as a soul even though the body is dead, could this be because all spirits are ultimately going to be reunited with an imperishable body that will live forever in hell or heaven?
Just one more thing (Columbo)
Smile. Could it be that departed spirits are referred to as souls because they already posses this imperishable body?
I will shut up after a while Jesus had this body, Moses and Elijah had it?
(edited by Nobby) Just put all your info in one post |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Loveall
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:13 am Post subject: |
|
|
| A soul is the entity that resides in the body of a human being. It is you, it is me. The soul is our actual self. The body being our temple. Not too hard. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:41 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Hi guys
the basic teaching of the OT is
dust + ruakh = nefesh
nefesh - ruakh = dust
body + breath/spirit (same word) = soul/life/being (all same word)
soul/life/being (all same word) - breath/spirit (same word) = dead body
* important to note that in the Bible "souls" can be "living" like Adam, Gen2:7, or "dead", such as Numbers 6:6 (Hebrew text).
This OT paradigm is confirmed in 1Co15 where Paul says "Adam became a living soul". Of course, inevitably, body/flesh, spirit/breath and soul/life also have figurative uses beyond the mere Genesis creation sense. Though a figurative use "my soul is weary" doesn't mean a supernatural use "their souls are in heaven" [not from Bible].
When Paul says, uniquely, 1Th5:23 I think, "whole body spirit and soul" he's talking about resurrection when the dead (who are not in heaven, John 3:13 etc) will be raised and given bodies like Christ's glorious post-resurrection body, but it includes the character of the person, the identity, personality, life, as well.
The only verse in the whole 66 books against the above is the "souls under the altar" vision in Revelation. If that symbol of talking dead souls is read literally then Gen 3:3,19 Ps6:5 and all the other hundreds of OT and NT verses that say death is sleep must all be ignored. For each of us to choose the one verse that agrees with what we want to believe, or the 1000s of verses that disagree with what we want to believe........ 
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
theseldomscene
Banned
Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
|
| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 6:03 pm Post subject: |
|
|
no at all...since JESUS said all who believe in HIM shall never die...matter of fact sounds like you missed quite a few verses there stephen ...i have seen you lose this discussion may times here already  ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
