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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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 Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:26 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | I gather from your response you do not believe the Bible. Your missing out on a wonderful life book, which not only covers everyone but has not one prophesy failed. Your examples are theoretical at best for your medical book gives different cures for different individuals, what works for one will not work for another. The Bible has one cure for all that has a 100% success rate,( something your medical book would not even dare to claim), Jesus Christ, who by the way fulfilled more OT prophsies than anyone could have counterfeited. There is not another like it, and there is no book that even remotely would dare to make the same claims as the Bible, which HAS PROVEN itself and been proven to be genuine test after test after test ................ |
james, I asked you how you can KNOW the Bible is inerrant. In effect, you reply is you know it is inerrant because it "cures" with 100% success rate. However, you don't say what it cures. And even if it were true that the Bible cures something with 100% success, does that mean the Bible is inerrant? No it does not!
Moreover, you make some claims that you need to justify. Let me list them:
"1.The Bible has one cure for all that has a 100% success rate."
What is your evidence? Does it cure an amputated leg. Does it cure cancer with 100% success rate. Please tell what your evidence is.
"Jesus Christ fulfilled more OT prophsies than anyone could have counterfeited."
That is just silly. What is the limit on the number of prophesies that could be counterfeited and how do you know?
"there is no book that even remotely would dare to make the same claims as the Bible."
Anyone can make claims if they are false. I will pay more attention if you can justify the claims you make about the Bible. Almost all religions have scripture and they ALL make claims somewhat similar to those you make for the Bible. Check out Bahá'í, Brahmanism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam etc etc.
"which HAS PROVEN itself and been proven to be genuine test after test after test"
Please let me have details of independent tests carried out.
I am anxious that you fully justify these extraordinary claims. If you cannot I trust you will apologise.
What would your view be if the Bible were found to contain one contradiction or one failed prophesy?
Love
Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 11:49 am Post subject: |
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The disease is S-I-N. Come unto Me all that are heavy burden and I will give you rest. Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. He is the perfect cure for what ails you, Him and HIm ALONE.
Have you ever tried to cure your sin problem with Jesus ???
If not what do you believe in ???????????
Yes, I accept your apology. No, I did not misunderstand what you said. |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | The disease is S-I-N. Come unto Me all that are heavy burden and I will give you rest. Christ took upon Himself the sins of the whole world. He is the perfect cure for what ails you, Him and HIm ALONE.
Have you ever tried to cure your sin problem with Jesus ???
If not what do you believe in ???????????
Yes, I accept your apology. No, I did not misunderstand what you said. |
james, I'll happily discuss my "sin problem" with you but first I must insist that you either justify your claims about the Bible or withdraw them. Since you obviously missed them, here are your claims again:
"1.The Bible has one cure for all that has a 100% success rate."
You have now admitted that it is only sin that the Bible can cure with 100% success rate. Nevertheless, please tell what your evidence is.
"Jesus Christ fulfilled more OT prophsies than anyone could have counterfeited."
That is just silly. What is the limit on the number of prophesies that could be counterfeited and how do you know?
"there is no book that even remotely would dare to make the same claims as the Bible."
Anyone can make claims if they are false. I will pay more attention if you can justify the claims you make about the Bible. Almost all religions have scripture and they ALL make claims somewhat similar to those you make for the Bible. Check out Bahá'í, Brahmanism, Confucianism, Hinduism, Islam etc etc.
"which HAS PROVEN itself and been proven to be genuine test after test after test"
Please let me have details of independent tests carried out.
You've got to focus james... let's take it step-by-step, justify your claims and we can move on to more interesting things.
Love
Argenta
_________________
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Fri Oct 19, 2007 9:50 pm Post subject: |
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The evidence is in the very scriptures themselves, ever read the bible ? The Just shall live by faith - Rom 1:17 ; so then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God - Rom 10:17 ; HEB 11:1 NOW FAITH IS THE SUBSTANCE OF THINGS HOPED FOR, THE EVIDENCE OF THINGS NOT SEEN.
Get it yet ?!?!?
You still have not answered my Question about your belief, and the only thing "silly" is you trying to persuade me to join in your disbelief. ALL SCRIPTURE IS WITHOUT ERROR. If it wasn't true, that statement would not bother you so much. It also seems that your mind is already made up, so this is actually a senseless conversation we are having, interesting yet senseless. For no matter what evidence, justification or proof I bring before you, you will not accept it. You are not the first to try and definitely not the last. As a matter of fact, even though the answer is plainly in the above scripture, you will deny seeing it and respond that I have not proved my point to your liking. Oh well.....................next............................. |
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 7:58 am Post subject: |
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And unless for you to truely understand Biblical Christianity and know the infallibility of the Bible you have to WHOLE HEARTEDLY LIVE IT.
For Christianity is NOT a belief, NOT a religion, but it is a WAY OF LIFE, YOU LIVE IT.
The only way you would have any right to ask me to retract my statement, is if you truely and whole heartedly accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour and you lived a life which witnesses of His love, and then God forsook you. But this is impossible to happen for God promises "I will never leave you, nor forsake you." After all Christian means Christ-like, we follow Christ example of how HE LIVED !!!!!!!! And it by living this life according to scriptures we see evidence in our own life that the Word of God, the Holy Bible is ERRORLESS !!!!!!!
Yes, you need to live it and then you will know for yourself. |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:05 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | The evidence is in the very scriptures themselves, ever read the bible ? ...[snip]...Get it yet ?!?!? |
Is this your answer james? Are you being serious or making fun of Christians? I hope not, that would be impolite on this forum.
Let's reprise this. I asked you to justify four extraordinary claims about the Bible.
FIRST CLAIM:
"1.The Bible has one cure for all [sin] that has a 100% success rate."
Your answer is (I paraphrase) "It must be true because The Bible says so"
SECOND CLAIM:
"Jesus Christ fulfilled more OT prophsies than anyone could have counterfeited."
Your answer is (I paraphrase) "It must be true because The Bible says so"
THIRD CLAIM
"there is no book that even remotely would dare to make the same claims as the Bible."
Your answer is (I paraphrase) "It must be true because The Bible says so"
FOURTH CLAIM
"which HAS PROVEN itself and been proven to be genuine test after test after test"
Your answer is (I paraphrase) "It must be true because The Bible says so"
So you have no external evidence for any of these claims but you believe them totally because the book you are judging makes these claims. I don't know how to break this to you james but that is just simple-minded. Does this mean you believe that any claims made by all books must be true? Can you not see how silly that is?
Do you see how similar that is to this classical and foolish circular argument?
1. God wrote the Bible
2. The Bible says God exists.
3. Therefore God does exist.
So either your logic is very weak or there is more evidence to support your four claims that you have not offered yet. Which is it?
| james wrote: | | You still have not answered my Question about your belief, and the only thing "silly" is you trying to persuade me to join in your disbelief. |
I have promised to answer your question when you have justified your four claims and I will stick to that promise. And don't jump to conclusions--you do not know whether I am a disbeliever or not nor do you know whether I am trying to convert you to anything. I wonder if this is something else you choose to believe without evidence james?
| james wrote: | | ALL SCRIPTURE IS WITHOUT ERROR. If it wasn't true, that statement would not bother you so much. |
This another non sequitur james. Furthermore, you have no knowledge whether or not I am bothered by your wild claims. In fact I am interested to understand what evidence you have. If you have good evidence I will believe what you have to say. Unfortunately, you have only demonstrated lack of evidence and lack of logic. Pity.
Give yourself some time to think about it and see if you can do better.
| james wrote: | | It also seems that your mind is already made up, so this is actually a senseless conversation we are having, interesting yet senseless. For no matter what evidence, justification or proof I bring before you, you will not accept it. |
It's simple, give me sound external evidence and I'll believe it.
Love
Argenta
_________________
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 8:20 pm Post subject: |
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Romans 1:18-23 (things by Him are clearly seen, those who can't look into the world and see evidence of Him must then be considered blind) All the world shows evidence of the existence of God, it is not just because the Bible says so.
1 Cor 1:23-31; Is 55:8-9 (so much for "your logic") I would not at all mind being classified as ignorant and unlearned such as Peter and John. Acts 4:13
As for why I am concluding that you are a non-believer 2 Tim 2:14-15; you give no scripture and you rely on logic. Christians live by faith, not a demand for "evidence", although your evidence is all around you. Matt 27:40-43 " If thou be the Son of God come down off of the cross and we will believe" John 20:29 "blessed are they that have NOT SEEN and yet have believed" |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Oct 20, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | Romans 1:18-23 (things by Him are clearly seen, those who can't look into the world and see evidence of Him must then be considered blind) All the world shows evidence of the existence of God, it is not just because the Bible says so. |
james, you are overlooking your four claims. This is evidence for the existence of a god and is not evidence for any specific god. It is not evidence for the inerrancy of the Bible so it's just not relevent to our discussion.
I'll happily discuss the implications of this statement too once you have justified your wild claims about the Bible or retracted them. So have you got anything else or is it retraction time?
By the way don't be afraid to retract a claim you have made. I have done it several times on this forum and I regard it as a learning experience that benefits me. Just think about your claims, and if you really do not have sound relevent evidence to support them, just come right out and say so. I'm sure we will all think the more of you if have the courage to admit your blunders.
| james wrote: | | As for why I am concluding that you are a non-believer 2 Tim 2:14-15; you give no scripture and you rely on logic. Christians live by faith, not a demand for "evidence", although your evidence is all around you. Matt 27:40-43 " If thou be the Son of God come down off of the cross and we will believe" John 20:29 "blessed are they that have NOT SEEN and yet have believed" |
Thank you james, that is the first piece of real evidence you have offered. You suggest as evidence of my non-belief that I demand evidence whilst Christians live by faith. It is true that I demand evidence and this IS evidence of my outlook on life but it does not conclusively make your point. I think it is true that MANY Christians rely on faith and disregard evidence but not ALL Christians. There are many Christians, I suspect millions of them, who live by a combination of faith and evidence. Most commonly, where there is evidence they are guided by it. Where there is not, they rely on faith. So your evidence can only suggest that I MIGHT be a non-believer. It would be unreasonable to draw firm conclusions from it.
There is another possibility too. I might be a Muslim. As a Muslim I would rely on faith as regards Islam but would demand evidence for Christian claims, in much the same way that Christians demand evidence for Muslim claims and generally find Muslim evidence inadequate. But if you would grant me a small aside question, if faith is sufficient reason to believe in Christianity why do you not accept Islam on faith also (I'm assuming you don't)?
So now you are getting the idea of using evidence, let's see your evidence for your four Biblical claims and settle this matter.
Love
Argenta
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 901
Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 3:45 am Post subject: |
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In only your opinion I have not answered. I have answered your request for "evidence" and yet you choose not to accept it nor see it set right before you.
Choosing not to accept evidence because it may put a "crimp" in what you believe, or refusing to see it as such because it does not favorably sit well with you does not annal the fact it is evidence. I cannot be persuaded to retract a statement that I have proven just because you do not wish to accept nor see what is set before you.
If you are sick and need medication, sometimes there is no evidence that the medication will cure or not have side affects, you in faith take the medication and the evidence comes AFTER you have taken. Sometimes this takes awhile.
Has Mohammad resurrected or are they still waiting by his tomb ?
If Mohammad was a great Prophet what prophecy's of his have been made and fulfilled ?
Christ has resurrected.
Christ has fulfilled the Prophecy's. |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:30 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | In only your opinion I have not answered. I have answered your request for "evidence" and yet you choose not to accept it nor see it set right before you. |
Oh dear james, I would love for us to conclude this discussion either in agreement or, at least, agreeing to disagree after both of us had proffered sound evidence and valid logical arguments. Unfortunately the concepts of sound evidence and valid logical arguments seem to be beyond you at the moment.
But I would still love for us each to understand the other's point of view, so let me look at your argument in a little more detail.
Your point above is that you have provided evidence but I have chosen not to accept it. OK let's explore that. To keep things simple, we will consider just the first of the four claims I asked you to justify:
FIRST CLAIM:
"1.The Bible has one cure for all [sin] that has a 100% success rate."
You said:
“1. The evidence is in the very scriptures themselves, ever read the bible?”
IT is not logically possible for the evidence of this claim to be in the Bible itself. For example, part of your claim is that it has 100% success rate. This can only be known by reviewing each attempted cure and determining that there were no failures. So nothing the Bible can say could possibly show that this, in fact a valid claim.
Let me give you a simple analogy. If I wrote a book that claimed I would make it rain every Thursday, would you believe it because my book says it? Of course, you would not. So how could you determine if it is true? You would have to look at historical weather reports from around the world. And if these reports show that since I published my book it has rained every Thursday all around the world you would have good reason to believe this claim. However, this is inductive logic which can only give you a probability of being correct—not certainty. You could not practicably check every weather report, every week in every place on the earth since my book was published, so it is still possible that I had some failures that you have missed. Therefore, your belief should be that my claim is probably true as you could find no exceptions.
The same is true for the Bible. Does it have a 100% success rate for curing sin? The problem here is that it is impossible to find out about every attempt at curing sin—you just cannot get the evidence—there will be millions of cases over thousands of years and the evidence is just not available. However, you may be able to find evidence of a few thousand cases and find that in 100% of your sample the Bible proved correct. This, again would be inductive logic and therefore would not give you certainty; just a probability of being correct.
To claim that the Bible has 100% success rate at curing sin and that you are certain this is true is vacuous—it is impossible to verify this claim to certainty.
Interestingly, claims like these are much easier to disprove than to prove. If anyone can find just one case where the Bible failed to cure sin, your claim would be found to be in error and your certainty misplaced.
Of course, I am conscious that you have made a poorly-defined claim. What does 100% success at curing all sin mean? What is sin and how do we know when it is cured? You really do need to define these points at the outset or we may both be thinking about different things. So what are your definitions of sin and cure?
| james wrote: | | Choosing not to accept evidence because it may put a "crimp" in what you believe, or refusing to see it as such because it does not favorably sit well with you does not annal the fact it is evidence. |
Try not to speculate james. In this case you are completely wrong. I find great pleasure in being proved wrong because I feel I have learned something. My problem with your evidence was simply that it was vague and could not possibly justify your claim (even if it had been precise). To me this is not a question of one-upmanship or of clinging to my beliefs; it is a question of discovering the truth. I hope you now understand the nature of the evidence required to justify your claims. So what evidence do you have or would you prefer to retract?
| james wrote: | | If you are sick and need medication, sometimes there is no evidence that the medication will cure or not have side affects, you in faith take the medication and the evidence comes AFTER you have taken. Sometimes this takes awhile. |
And sometimes the medicine kills you! Personally, I prefer to take medicine that that been proven safe and effective in laboratory and field trials. Clearly so do most people which is why almost all countries have very strict laws regarding the safety and efficacy of medicines.
But maybe I’m taking this point too literally? Perhaps you mean that you prefer to take the Bible on faith so there is no need for evidence. Is that your point? I really have no problem if this is your position. You just have to say that you believe your four claims on faith and have no evidence and that’s the end of our debate. Your claims might still be wrong but the fact that you chose to believe on faith shows that you are not interested in whether they are true or false so there is not point in my engaging you in debate.
Let’s try to resolve this issue in a friendly manner james. This means please stop speculating about my beliefs and motives and make an effort to get your mind around the logic. I promise you that I am being honest and striving to find the truth and I will assume the same for you.
Love
Argenta
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james
Lion
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: |
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If I am understanding you correctly, then we would need to start from the beginning, and then the discussion would have to start from the stand point of proving the very existance of God apart from the Bible or any other system of belief.
Also I do apologize for answers which were sarcastic or unfounded accusation as to what your beliefs may or may not be. I had no right and I am sorry. |
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Argenta
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | If I am understanding you correctly, then we would need to start from the beginning, and then the discussion would have to start from the stand point of proving the very existance of God apart from the Bible or any other system of belief.
Also I do apologize for answers which were sarcastic or unfounded accusation as to what your beliefs may or may not be. I am sorry. |
Your apology is accepted and, I too apologise in case you feel I was short with you.
Where we need to start depends on what you are trying to establish. For example, I have recently engaged in a debate with lone-traveller on the question of whether the Bible can be considered a source of authoritative truth. In that case I do think you need to start with the existence of God since it is necessary for God to exist in order to believe that the Bible is authoratative truth. If you'd like to see my view on how you could establish that the Bible is authoratative truth, Click Here.
You are trying to justify your claim that | james wrote: | | The Bible has one cure for all [sin] that has a 100% success rate. |
To be rigorous about this you would have to:
1. Define "all sin"
2. Define "cure"
3. Define "100% success rate" (This is not as obvious as it may seem. For example, what needs to happen for someone to be counted as seeking a cure in the first place?)
Then you would have to find evidence that your claim is true. Of course this is horrendously difficult to do. Where would you get evidence from (you obviously cannot use Bible verses)? For practical reasons you'd only be able to take a sample of cases and infer the general claim. So if you could find 1,000 cases and they all resulted in cure of sin, you could fairly argue that your claim is validated. You claim is not proved of course, because there may be some failures (past or future) that you did not include in your sample. If you found 10 cases in your sample of 1,000 where sin was not cured you would have to change your claim to "The Bible has one cure for all [sin] that has a 99% success rate".
If you wish to be taken seriously as a scholar there's still more you would need to do. Firstly, take steps to ensure that your sample was not biased. For example, if you found all your examples in a book by a devout Christian called "How the Bible cures sin" you would not be taken seriously.
Secondly you should publish your results (and all your workings) to independent experts (not your buddies  ) for them to challenge. If they can find nothing wrong with your work, you will start to be taken seriously.
Thirdly, you would encourage other scholars to repeat your research using different data. If they arrive at the same conclusions as you, you are on your way to becoming an accepted scholar.
Phew! It is a lot of hard work to make a claim that will be taken seriously isn't it? But this is exactly how science works and that is why we can be quite confident (but not certain) about scientific claims that have been through this rigorous process.
You may not think it is feasible to do any of this work but I just want you to understand why I was skeptical when you made four claims that are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to justify.
So it is over to you. If you'd like to take a stab at justifying your claims I'd be fascinated to see your results but if not you should think about doing the honourable thing.
Love
Argenta
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Loveall
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:46 am Post subject: |
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Argenta, Hi.
Just reading through this thread, and I must say, you seem very smart. I have a problem though. Where is your faith? Do you believe in something? For all your smarts, you are lost, confused. James is not going to convince you of the fact that the bible is infallible because you have no faith in it. Those of us who trust God know to trust His Word simply because he tells us to. If you walk with him, then he speaks to your heart, we don't need anymore proof than that. You must get past your scientific view of everything, and bring back your childlike faith. Did anyone ever teach you when you were a child that Jesus loves you? Do you have anything you believe in? How do you know that no amputee has ever been miraculously healed? Have you asked every single one that has lived? 2000 years roughly since Jesus walked the earth, healing and forgiving sins. Surely he has healed at least one. But how would you know? |
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