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| How should we treat Pakistan? |
| Should we invade and treat Pakistan like Iraq? |
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| Should we overlook Musharraf's little picadillos and support him indefinitely? |
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| Should we go to the UN and begin a series of sanctions? |
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| Author |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 5:52 am Post subject: Pakistan: invade and install demccracy? |
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Musharraf is a dictator who has consistently refused to allow democracy in Pakistan. He has refused to really extend the fight against known terrorists that he agrees are within his country. Pakistan definitely has nuclear weapons, unlike Iraq. Pakistan is the location where many of the terrorist get their training.
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Last edited by 45degreeN on Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:27 am; edited 1 time in total |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 8:22 pm Post subject: |
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Boss,
I couldn't vote on your poll because you didn't create one that reflected all likely viewpoints.
I think we should invade Pakistan, but not try to make it like Iraq. We should invade them because they shamelessly harbor our enemy. The purpose of a military is for defense only, not for social engineering.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus
Blessed art thou among women |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 5:54 am Post subject: |
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We did of course invade Iraq and the results are the results. I would suggest that the results would be far worse than Iraq since Pakistan has nuclear weapons.
But would they use them?
Anyone else want to try?
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: |
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I couldn't vote. What option should someone choose if he believes that any form of military intervention or the usual UN sanctions are likely to be useless or make things worse?
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 7:46 am Post subject: |
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You're right on this one I forgot to include that option on this forum and I cant seem to go back and correct it.
Is there anyone that we can trust to run Pakistan the way we want it run? To drive the Taliban out and restore peaceful democracy and otherwise do our bidding in south Asia? Maybe even catch Bin Laden and send him to us for trial.
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: |
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| 45degreeN wrote: | Is there anyone that we can trust to run Pakistan the way we want it run? To drive the Taliban out and restore peaceful democracy and otherwise do our bidding in south Asia? Maybe even catch Bin Laden and send him to us for trial.
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Good question. I presume by "we" you mean people in (presently) democratic countries. There may be two diametrically opposing things in your wish list here. Restoring democracy means letting the people make up their own minds about leadership. Leadership by the people and particularly for the people. Running Pakistan the way we want it run means leadership for us. We probably cannot have both unless we and the Pakistani people are of one mind on most of the issues.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 11:38 am Post subject: |
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Well Plotinus it seems in Iraq the US is desiring the same sort of government as we have modeled on what we do.
In Pakistan we seem to let them flounder with their emergency state and a dictator and so far not even consider invading. Musharraf is not a democrat at all has no consideration for any other point of view imprisons the opposition. Hasn't really done much against the Taliban and accepted billions of dollars for his military. So far he hasn't used poison gas on his citizens like Saddam. Maybe the only exceptional difference.
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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Yes, that is true about Pakistan. The reason may be that government for us (the west) has always trumped government for the people (them) in the foreign policy of western powers.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 2:28 pm Post subject: |
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Is that also why we in the west have consistently tried to turn those other governments into imitation of ours.
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Plotinus
Lion King
Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1051
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 10:21 am Post subject: |
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IMHO, the attempts to turn countries into imitation of western democracies are half hearted at best. Consider Eric Margolis' recent comment on Pakistan:
| Eric Margolis wrote: |
My Pakistani sources report growing unrest in the 619,000-man armed forces. Senior commanders, recently promoted by Musharraf after pre-approval by Washington, support him. But they are increasingly dismayed by the threat of a clash with civilians.
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Original source is here.
Client states cannot really be imitations in the true sense, because they are clients and not properly autonomous.
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One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.
Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7. |
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2673
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 12:59 pm Post subject: |
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This is reminiscent of the Roman empire.
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: |
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Hey 45degreeN  | 45degreeN wrote: | | This is reminiscent of the Roman empire. |
Exactly, which is why a 4th option would have been good 
| Quote: |
* Should we invade and treat Pakistan like Iraq?
* Should we overlook Musharraf's little picadillos and support him indefinitely?
* Should we go to the UN and begin a series of sanctions?
* Should we do as Paul says, pray for Nero, and leave politics to God. |
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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saintmichaeldefendthem
Big Lion
Joined: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 979
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 5:51 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Should we do as Paul says, pray for Nero, and leave politics to God. |
Umm, Paul didn't say that. Christians are always called to be involved in the political process. Jesus said we are the salt and light of the world. If salt loses its flavor, then it no longer seasons food and its usefulness is at an end, much like a Christian who doesn't want to be involved in the world around him.
Christians stopped the barbaric gladiator events. That's right. They began protesting these events in which people died purely for the entertainment of the crowd and Caesar. A monk even jumped into the arena to put a stop to it and he was martyred; his blood was shed to bring even more attention to the macabre nature of these events. Eventually public interest began to wane and the events died out altogether.
This is what Jesus meant when he called us to be the light of the world.....and salt....and a shining city on a hill.
Benedicta tu in mulieribus |
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