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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6046
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Tue Nov 06, 2007 6:08 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | The fallacy here is you thinking that animals has anything to do with right and wrong. |
It was an analogy to the logical fallacy you were using. That is, the fallacy of the undistributed middle.
You went:
unnatural = wrong
sin = wrong
unnatural = sin
I can show you exactly why it doesn't work with a similar argument:
sun = yellow
sunflowers = yellow
sun = sunflowers
Read more here.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | As far as cars and computers go, remember this: They are created from natural minerals that we harvested from the earth, that God created.  |
Homosexual activity is an act between (as you would see it) two beings that God created. You're really not doing yourself any favors here. |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:13 am Post subject: |
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| FFT, that is the crazy. I don't think you are even using logic at all. Chalk it up to your opinion. That is all you are doing, giving me your opinion. |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:28 am Post subject: |
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| Murder is also an act between two beings that God created. The only difference is that the one being murdered is not commiting the sin. If an unnatural thing is wrong, and sin is wrong, then it makes sense that an unnatural thing would be sin. That was no analogy. Just because God created them, does not mean that their actions are right. Your argument is poor. Just accept the fact that Homosexuality is biblically proven to be a sin. |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:11 pm Post subject: |
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FFT, you've got some kind of weird view of reading the Bible, if you can read Romans 1 (in any translation) and NOT take away from that that homosexuality is sin. My version uses words like, "perversion", "indecent acts", "shameful lusts", "unnatural", etc. When God uses language like that, he generally means you shouldn't do that. *smacks forehead* "It's perverted, shameful, unnatural, and indecent, but no worries, go right on ahead, it's not actually sin. I'm just sorta inclined to rather think it's not quite exactly what is natural."
See what I'm saying?
Romans 1:24 "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another."
And just 2 verses later, Paul is directly condemning homosexuality.
I mean, to anyone who is reading this with ANY intellectual honesty, this is game set match right here. Case closed. Homosexuality = sin. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6046
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:32 pm Post subject: |
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| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | FFT, that is the crazy. I don't think you are even using logic at all. |
Well, okay. You're just wrong, as I've demonstrated. 
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Chalk it up to your opinion. That is all you are doing, giving me your opinion. |
It's not my opinion that you used an undistributed middle fallacy to argue that unnatural = sin.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Murder is also an act between two beings that God created. The only difference is that the one being murdered is not commiting the sin. |
Exactly. It's not enough to say that if something's created of God it's natural.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | If an unnatural thing is wrong, and sin is wrong, then it makes sense that an unnatural thing would be sin. |
No it doesn't; that's an invalid argument. If hands have five digits and feet have five digits, then it makes sense that hands are feet.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | That was no analogy. |
No, it isn't. It's an argument, and a fallacious one at that. As I've been pointing out to you.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Your argument is poor. |
That's rich coming from someone that doesn't even realize that they're steadfastly using an invalid one.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Just accept the fact that Homosexuality is biblically proven to be a sin. |
See, if it's "proven" I shouldn't have to "just accept the fact." If it's proven, it should be demonstrable. It isn't.
| VikingMan44 wrote: | FFT, you've got some kind of weird view of reading the Bible, if you can read Romans 1 (in any translation) and NOT take away from that that homosexuality is sin. My version uses words like, "perversion", "indecent acts", "shameful lusts", "unnatural", etc. When God uses language like that, he generally means you shouldn't do that. *smacks forehead* "It's perverted, shameful, unnatural, and indecent, but no worries, go right on ahead, it's not actually sin. I'm just sorta inclined to rather think it's not quite exactly what is natural."
See what I'm saying? |
It's kind of a problem to argue that when people are born homosexual.
| VikingMan44 wrote: | | I mean, to anyone who is reading this with ANY intellectual honesty, this is game set match right here. Case closed. Homosexuality = sin. |
To Paul.
Remember, Paul also has some funny stuff about what women can and can't do.
See, if Jesus had ever said something about it, it would have more authority. The Greeks were gay all over the place, you'd think He'd've said something if He cared about it. |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:45 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | I retracted my accusation, at least to the point that I'm not accusing the NIV of simply being a "version" in the manner that the KJV is. |
Thanks for that. Though really, I don't care one way or the other. Like I said, it's the translation I've read since I was a kid, and I'll keep using it.
| FFT wrote: | | See, in my opinion, a faith untested isn't really faith at all. And absolutely I get entertainment out of people whose faith has never really been tested. So? |
Untested faith.... hmmm.
Pray that the faith of America is never tested, for then your social political agenda is really in trouble. Historically, when faith is tested, in any kind of meaningful way, faith multiplies, it THRIVES under fire. Will some fade away? Absolutely. And to those who do, they never really had faith at all, they had a temporarily convenient religious system that served their purposes for the time being. The rest? Their faith will harden into character shaping resolve of "Biblical" proportions.
I PRAY for the testing of the faith of America to get the church off it's lazy rear end and back about the Father's business. Your signature is so very right. The church in America IS exactly what you describe. And it's not what God wanted his church to be. For a view of the real church, go take a look at China, where in years past, being a Christian could literally get you killed.
| FFT wrote: | | VikingMan44 wrote: | | 1 Corinthians 2:14 "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." -NIV |
There are several of these convenient passages throughout scripture. They're pretty inconsequential |
See quote below.
| 2 Timothy 3:16 wrote: | | All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness |
Your position is that you have yet to change anyone's mind on the issue of homosexuality because of the biases and prejudices of those people. Yes?
Perhaps, the issue is NOT that those people are biased and prejudiced, perhaps it is that they see something that is spiritually discerned that you do not. You might see the 1 Cor 2 reference as "inconsequential", but in this instance, it is everything. If the Bible is truth, then all of it is equally true or none of it at all.
Though I am curious about something. What are the other passages that you think are "inconsequential"?
Last edited by VikingMan44 on Wed Nov 07, 2007 2:00 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Who do you think Paul got that from? I wanted to say that I read your little website you sent me to, and I did not do that at all. The things mentioned on the website were rediculous, what I said makes sense, and is the truth. It is backed up by bible. That is where I got it from. |
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VikingMan44
Goldfish
Joined: 24 Oct 2007
Posts: 60
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | VikingMan44 wrote: | | I mean, to anyone who is reading this with ANY intellectual honesty, this is game set match right here. Case closed. Homosexuality = sin. |
To Paul.
Remember, Paul also has some funny stuff about what women can and can't do.
See, if Jesus had ever said something about it, it would have more authority. The Greeks were gay all over the place, you'd think He'd've said something if He cared about it. |
Ahhhhhhh. So now the argument has shifted, has it not? You place less emphasis on the writings of Paul.
Your admission is that Paul does indeed say that homosexuality is sin.
Like I said before. Either the whole thing is truth, or none at all. If God is who he said he was, he would have safe guarded one of his most important mechanisms of communication with man.
Thus, if Paul said homosexuality = sin, God said it. Because the word of God was written with human hands, through the impulse of the Holy Spirit. |
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Ben Chalfant
German Shepherd
Joined: 29 Oct 2007
Posts: 332
Location: Kansas
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Well said, Vike! |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6046
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 4:05 pm Post subject: |
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| 2 Timothy 3:16 wrote: | | All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness |
Funny, that sounds exactly like what I'm doing.
| VikingMan44 wrote: | Your position is that you have yet to change anyone's mind on the issue of homosexuality because of the biases and prejudices of those people. Yes?
Perhaps, the issue is NOT that those people are biased and prejudiced, perhaps it is that they see something that is spiritually discerned that you do not. |
Certainly possible. I don't suspect that 1 Corinthians 2:14 is talking about the text of the Bible, though.
| VikingMan44 wrote: | | Though I am curious about something. What are the other passages that you think are "inconsequential"? |
The other verses which make similar statements. "You can't understand this because you don't believe it" nonsense.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | Who do you think Paul got that from? |
He doesn't really say, so I'd be hesitant to make any claims of fact.
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | I wanted to say that I read your little website you sent me to, and I did not do that at all. The things mentioned on the website were rediculous, what I said makes sense, and is the truth. |
I really don't see why you aren't getting this. More than once now you've made this argument:
Unnatural = wrong
Sin = wrong
Unnatural = sin
This is the fallacy of the undistributed middle. If you considered that valid, you should also consider this valid or you are a hypocrite:
Hands = five digits
Feet = five digits
Hands = feet
| Ben Chalfant wrote: | | It is backed up by bible. That is where I got it from. |
If that's actually the case, why didn't you quote where the Bible says that that which is unnatural is wrong and sin?
| VikingMan44 wrote: | | Ahhhhhhh. So now the argument has shifted, has it not? You place less emphasis on the writings of Paul. |
Anyone that places more emphasis on them isn't really getting the point.
| VikingMan44 wrote: | | Your admission is that Paul does indeed say that homosexuality is sin. |
For the sake of argument.
It in no way says that homosexuality is sin. What the passage does say is that God turned idol worshippers into homosexuals as punishment. Tell me. If you one day woke up and were no longer attracted to women but instead only men, would you be particularly happy?
| VikingMan44 wrote: | | Like I said before. Either the whole thing is truth, or none at all. |
I heartily disagree. I don't think the Bible is "truth" but I'm not one to throw the baby out with the bathwater. There is a decent moral message in the Bible—the New Testament at least. I'm perfectly fine with the idea of "be chill to each other." It's just got some of its facts incorrect.
| VikingMan44 wrote: | | If God is who he said he was, he would have safe guarded one of his most important mechanisms of communication with man. |
Does that include translating it into a series of different languages? |
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Abenadar
Tadpole
Joined: 11 Sep 2007
Posts: 16
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 2:04 am Post subject: |
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Agree with the opinions or not, the description of the fallacy stands.
It is only better for all involved to refine one's argument so that it is both logical and persuasive. |
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Loveall
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Mon Nov 12, 2007 11:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Fallacy doesn't seem to matter. I read the thread, but I still think Homosexuals are sinners. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6046
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:21 am Post subject: |
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Why? If you've read the thread and refuse to be reasonable that simply makes you prejudiced.
If you can't come up with a rational argument why something is a sin, calling it a sin is intellectually dishonest. |
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Loveall
Tadpole
Joined: 12 Nov 2007
Posts: 23
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: |
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| I am shocked that a "so called Christian website" is tolerating the idea that Homosexuality might be ok. How horrible! Why is it, that humans are the only ones that do this? If it is natural, then how come animals don't do it? I do know that in some rare occasions, dogs have been known to try, but let's try to remember that they are dogs. In general, animals do not do this. This debate is not worth the effort. The answer is = Homosexuality is an abomination. |
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james
Bear
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 690
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| Posted: Tue Nov 13, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject: |
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Loveall,
I do agree with you for the most part. But we must remember that Christ dwelt with sinners and it is as sinners we come to Him. In no way or manner can we " clean ourselves up" and then come to Christ. We let the SCRIPTURES do the convicting and God does the revealing (2 Tim 2:24-26). Our place is to scatter seed (scriptures) and when they hit fertile ground GOD will give them growth. And I believe all FFT is asking for is the scriptures to back up your statements. There are also many different types of beliefs here and not just Christianity, many sites contain Muslem debates. Please be patient (again 2 Tim2:24-26)
God bless, your brother in christ james |
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