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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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 Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2007 10:22 pm Post subject: whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael. |
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| Steven3 wrote: |
I have a question which is not so much related to Mohammed but to the disagreements between the Quran and the Old Testament. Particularly, to start with one important one, whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael.
Now as I read the Quran text Mohammed does not make clear which son was to be sacrificed, but generally the Hadith says it was Ishmael
Now assuming you accept Hadith, doesn't this create a problem? The Quran, following the Jewish Old Testament, takes the stories of Isaac's descendants - Moses, David, Jesus, and not the descendants of Ishmael. Why?
God bless
Steven |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:00 am Post subject: Re: whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael |
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I’ll follow the following methodology:-
• First I’ll explain how it’s well known from Quran
• Second I’ll explain it from the OT
Yes the Quran doesn’t state explicitly that it’s Ishmael but the context of the verses does.
Surah 37.
Verse 100: Abraham prays to Allah for a righteous son.
Verse 101: Allah gives Abraham the good news of a forbearing son.
Verses 102-103: The son reaches the age of serious work and
Allah Commands Abraham to sacrifice that son.
Abraham and his son submit to the Will of Allah.
Verses 104-108: Allah rewards Abraham and his son for the
momentous sacrifice.
Verses 109-111: Allah sends "Peace and Salutations" to Abraham.
Confirms He rewards those who do right and
praises Abraham as His believing servant.
Most of people stop the story here but the story not finished yet
VERSE NO. 112: "And We gave him the good news of Isaac - a prophet, - one of the Righteous."
VERSE NO. 113 reads: "We blessed him and Isaac; But of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to themselves."
The end of Section Three of the Surah 37.
from all the above verses can tell you that the command from allah for the sacrifice came before Isaac was born and when Ishmael was of serious working age.
This is from Quran.
Then the Quran doesn’t follow the Old Testimony at all.
Also, it was will known fact for people of Arabia that it’s was Ishmael.
Generally, if the Hadith is well authenticated it’s never contradicts with Quran.
I hope this clears that the Quran says that it’s Ishmael.
I’ll explain in the next post that even it’s clear from old testimony that it’s Ishmael not Isaac. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| When was the Quran written? |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1413
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:08 pm Post subject: |
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around 600BC...
the fact that the Quran says Ishmael and the Old Testament says Isaac has nothing to do with what actually did or didn't happen...
I can write a book and claim it was transcribed to me by Gabriel claiming that Mickey Mouse was Abraham's first born...none of that makes it "true"...
weak argument to prove "the one true religion"...please try again 
_________________
Link to intro post of "who I am"
"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 7:36 pm Post subject: Re: whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael |
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Hi Abdelaleem | Abdelaleem wrote: | | Yes the Quran doesn’t state explicitly that it’s Ishmael but the context of the verses does. Surah 37. |
I have to say that to me I would read Surah 37:112 to agree with Genesis for 2 reasons:
1. because the Hadith commentary has not considered the problem that there are in fact 2 blessings on Isaac in Genesis - one before he was born, one after the sacrifice. From the words Surah 37:112 uses I would read Surah 37:112 to be quoting the second, adult, blessing on Isaac, not the one before he was born.
2. Mohammed's uncle was a Christian - who would know the story of Isaac not just from OT but from NT. It seems strange that Mohammed who expresses disagreement with his uncle's beliefs in other places would not make it clear that OT and NT were wrong, his uncle was wrong.
However I'm not a muslim so I have no right to contradict what Hadith says. My main question remains how do muslims cope with the genealogy following Isaac's descendants in the Quran?
Abraham
Isaac-----------Ishmael
Jacob
David
Solomon
Jesus
| Quote: | | Also, it was will known fact for people of Arabia that it’s was Ishmael. |
I didn't realize this. How many years after Mohammed is the first Hadith that the "son" was Ishmael not Isaac?
| Quote: | | I’ll explain in the next post that even it’s clear from old testimony that it’s Ishmael not Isaac. |
I look forward to that post 
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 2:37 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | around 600BC...
the fact that the Quran says Ishmael and the Old Testament says Isaac has nothing to do with what actually did or didn't happen...
I can write a book and claim it was transcribed to me by Gabriel claiming that Mickey Mouse was Abraham's first born...none of that makes it "true"...
weak argument to prove "the one true religion"...please try again |
Try 600 AD, you're off by a mere 1200 years.
They had Disney World in the middle east? Did the Jews build it too? You should thank the Jews for such a fun place for kids. |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael |
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| Steven3 wrote: | Hi Abdelaleem | Abdelaleem wrote: | | Yes the Quran doesn’t state explicitly that it’s Ishmael but the context of the verses does. Surah 37. |
I have to say that to me I would read Surah 37:112 to agree with Genesis for 2 reasons:
1. because the Hadith commentary has not considered the problem that there are in fact 2 blessings on Isaac in Genesis - one before he was born, one after the sacrifice. From the words Surah 37:112 uses I would read Surah 37:112 to be quoting the second, adult, blessing on Isaac, not the one before he was born. |
It’s two different blessings.
First bless : [100] "O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!" ,[101] So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
Then the story of sacrifice [102-107] Allah praised him with
[108] And We left (this blessing) for him among generations (to come) in later times:
[109] "Peace and salutation to Ibrahim!"
[110] Thus indeed do We reward those who do right
[111] For he was one of Our believing Servants.
Please note that this is the end of the story of sacrifice .
To summarize :-
Allah blessed him with a good news to have a boy
He is tested to scarify with this boy
Another story begin:
[112] And We gave him the good news of Ishaq - a prophet - one of the Righteous.
[113] We blessed him and Ishaq: but of their progeny are (some) that do right, and (some) that obviously do wrong, to their own souls.
In [112] Allah said “And” it means something different than the previous one. We use “And” to describe a series of incidents. So, it’s something new from the previous one. The new blessing is Isaac. So Ishmael first and then Isaac
| Steven3 wrote: | | 2. Mohammed's uncle was a Christian - who would know the story of Isaac not just from OT but from NT. It seems strange that Mohammed who expresses disagreement with his uncle's beliefs in other places would not make it clear that OT and NT were wrong, his uncle was wrong. |
No one of Mohamed’s uncles was Christian.
Regarding the surrounding people knowledge, the opposite is right. All Arabs at that time know that Ishmael was the sacrifice simply because Ishmael is the father of all Arabs in Mecca.
| Steven3 wrote: | | However I'm not a muslim so I have no right to contradict what Hadith says. |
It’s not a problem at all Hadith is different from Quran. Quran is what Allah said to Gabriel then from Gabriel to Mohamed. Too many Moslems memorized Quran. Then it’s written as is.
The Hadith, is what Mohamed said from his own, what he did? What he eat, dressed, acted , behaved, interact, sleep…?
Hadith is a story told to another and so forth. Some Hadith can be rejected because the people told it were not trusted, liars, un honest, inaccurate , forgets
| Steven3 wrote: | My main question remains how do muslims cope with the genealogy following Isaac's descendants in the Quran?
Abraham
Isaac-----------Ishmael
Jacob
David
Solomon
Jesus |
We must add to them Moses, Joseph and his 11 brothers,,,,
They are all profits peace up on them all. They were messengers. We love them exactly the same as Mohamed. They all preached with Allah who created the world. Only one God no son, no relatives, Nothing like him, almighty.
Our believe is not accepted if we don’t believe them all.
Allah said in Quran 2:136 Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Ishaq, Ya'qub, and the Tribes, and that given to Musa and 'Isa, and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam)."
Ya'qub = Jacob, Tribes= Joseph and his 11 brothers, Musa= Moses, Isa= Jesus
| Steven3 wrote: | | Quote: | | Also, it was will known fact for people of Arabia that it’s was Ishmael. |
I didn't realize this. How many years after Mohammed is the first Hadith that the "son" was Ishmael not Isaac? |
I’m sorry I mistyped as I used “it was will known fact” the correct statement is
It was well known fact for people of Arabia at that time when Mohamed was alive that the sacrifice was Ishmael. Also, you should know that Ishmael who established Mecca and he build “Kabba” with Ishmael. Ishmael is the father of all Arabs in Mecca
| Steven3 wrote: | | Quote: | | I’ll explain in the next post that even it’s clear from old testimony that it’s Ishmael not Isaac. |
I look forward to that post
Steven |
I’ll do for sure but after we close this point in the Quran |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1413
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2007 7:25 pm Post subject: |
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So is Ishmael the ram which was caught in the bush?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 6:27 am Post subject: Re: whether Abraham was tested to sacrifice Isaac or Ishmael |
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Hi Abdelaleem
Thanks for your response | Abdelaleem wrote: | It’s two different blessings.
First bless : [100] "O my Lord! grant me a righteous (son)!" ,[101] So We gave him the good news of a boy ready to suffer and forbear.
.................
In [112] Allah said “And” it means something different than the previous one. We use “And” to describe a series of incidents. So, it’s something new from the previous one. The new blessing is Isaac. So Ishmael first and then Isaac |
I should have said that Genesis contains actually 3 blessings, 1 on Ishmael (Genesis 16&17), 2 on Isaac. Have you compared word for word the 3 blessings in Genesis with the 2 blessings in this Surah. Muhammed appears to me to be quoting the 2 Isaac blessings and not the 1 Ishmael blessing. Have you put the texts side-by-side and made your own comparison?
* (Do you have an Arabic copy of Genesis you can access?
http://www.biblegateway.com/bible?language=arabic http://www.arabicbible.com/bible/*Female with a Nice Mullet*.htm )
| Steven3 wrote: | | No one of Mohamed’s uncles was Christian. |
Sorry, I was told Waraqa Ibn Nawfal was a Christian? I have read Islamic sources claiming Waraqa Ibn Nawfal as a pure "uncorrupted" student and teacher of the Injil? Anyway, forget Waraqa Ibn Nawfal, even so Muhammed obviously had interreaction with Arab Christians and Jews, because Muhammed says so himself in the Quran - so why when writing this Surah does he not name the son as Ishmael? Why did he leave it to Hadith to make clear? Muhammed must know he was teaching opposite to Jews and Christians so why not make the difference clear?
| Quote: | | Regarding the surrounding people knowledge, the opposite is right. All Arabs at that time know that Ishmael was the sacrifice simply because Ishmael is the father of all Arabs in Mecca. |
I am very interested, and I would love to see historical evidence for this please - if there is documentary evidence (papyrus or manuscript) that belief that Ishmael was the sacrifice which predates the Hadith, then you are right. The earliest Hadith which gives this commentary on the Surah, as far as I can see from the date given on the muslim website, is 120 years after Muhammed, so is not proof of what Arabs in Mecca believed before Muhammed.
Please do not misunderstand  - I would not doubt that there are documents saying that Ishmael was father of all Arabs in Mecca (Genesis also says Ishmael is the father of many Arab nations), but I am hoping to see a document earlier than Hadith which says that Ishmael was the son nearly sacrificed.
| Quote: | | Steven3 wrote: | | However I'm not a muslim so I have no right to contradict what Hadith says. |
It’s not a problem at all Hadith is different from Quran. Quran is what Allah said to Gabriel then from Gabriel to Mohamed. Too many Moslems memorized Quran. Then it’s written as is.
The Hadith, is what Mohamed said from his own, what he did? What he eat, dressed, acted , behaved, interact, sleep…?
Hadith is a story told to another and so forth. Some Hadith can be rejected because the people told it were not trusted, liars, un honest, inaccurate , forgets |
That's what I understood - Hadith to muslims are like Early Christian writers like Clement or Barnabas to Christians. We do not claim they are inspired.
But in this case we have a problem  - a major part of Muhammed's prophecy about the Arab people (the sacrifice of Ishmael) but the name of Ishmael is not found in the Quran text regarding the blessing - the son is not named, and immediately after the son is named as Isaac. So in this case the reliability of that Hadith is important, is it not?
| Quote: | | Steven3 wrote: | My main question remains how do muslims cope with the genealogy following Isaac's descendants in the Quran?
Abraham
Isaac-----------Ishmael
Jacob
David
Solomon
Jesus |
We must add to them Moses, Joseph and his 11 brothers |
Of course, you are right. I am just concentrating on the royal line. Through Judah, David, Solomon, as in Matthew 1. But yes Moses, Joseph and his 11 brothers are also prophets in Quran and in the Bible.
The problem is these prophets mentioned in the Quran are all descendants of Isaac, not Ishmael. So how can the promise to Abraham be about Ishmael?
| Quote: | | It was well known fact for people of Arabia at that time when Mohamed was alive that the sacrifice was Ishmael. Also, you should know that Ishmael who established Mecca and he build “Kabba” with Ishmael. Ishmael is the father of all Arabs in Mecca |
I don't doubt that Ishmael built Kabba, Gen17:20 says he will be father of 12 princes. But I am curious to see dated documentary evidence earlier than that Hadith that Muhammed meant Ishmael. As I said I'm not a muslim so I'm quite happy to continue discussion with 100% acceptance that the Surah does mean Ishmael, it's simply curiousity that's all. If there is no evidence earlier than the Hadith it's not a problem, but you sound as if you know there is.
| Quote: | | Steven3 wrote: | | Quote: | | I’ll explain in the next post that even it’s clear from old testimony that it’s Ishmael not Isaac. |
I look forward to that post
Steven |
I’ll do for sure but after we close this point in the Quran |
No need. I'm happy to concede the point - I will accept the Hadith are right and Muhammed does mean Ishmael, then we can proceed.
As I said :
My problem is these prophets mentioned in the Quran are all descendants of Isaac, not Ishmael. So how can the promise to Abraham be about Ishmael? 
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:16 am Post subject: |
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I have an alternative explanation, one which no doubt will be unpopular but it needs to be said.
The story of Ishmael is the story of Abraham forsaking his old ( but common practice in his day) of sacrificing the first born Son. These practices continued on in various forms among the tribal people of that day. Moses was able to lead his followers away from human sacrifice by substituting animals instead. It is an example of the ordinary evolution of man made religion.
One only need to follow the evolution of Judaism after Christ to understand that there is a natural evolution inside of religion which coincides with societies evolution and enlightenment. Religion does often lag behind but it does reluctantly liberalize. Case in point, Judaism eventually gave up the practice of stoning people to death for a multitude of man made rules and social/religious regulations.
The second problem is that during the Babylonian captivity the Jews completely rewrote their history, they took ordinary secular history and transformed it into miraculous history, making themselves a "special race" of Gods chosen people on earth. The OT still contains fragments of truth but is basically a work of exaggerated fiction. All religions which rely on story telling suffer from this practice; fact and fiction combined to inspire men.
Abraham is NOT the only father of the modern day Jews nor is Ishmael the only Father Islam.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 7:40 am Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | I have an alternative explanation, one which no doubt will be unpopular but it needs to be said.
The story of Ishmael is the story of Abraham forsaking his old ( but common practice in his day) of sacrificing the first born Son. These practices continued on in various forms among the tribal people of that day. Moses was able to lead his followers away from human sacrifice by substituting animals instead. It is an example of the ordinary evolution of man made religion.
One only need to follow the evolution of Judaism after Christ to understand that there is a natural evolution inside of religion which coincides with societies evolution and enlightenment. Religion does often lag behind but it does reluctantly liberalize. Case in point, Judaism eventually gave up the practice of stoning people to death for a multitude of man made rules and social/religious regulations.
The second problem is that during the Babylonian captivity the Jews completely rewrote their history, they took ordinary secular history and transformed it into miraculous history, making themselves a "special race" of Gods chosen people on earth. The OT still contains fragments of truth but is basically a work of exaggerated fiction. All religions which rely on story telling suffer from this practice; fact and fiction combined to inspire men.
Abraham is NOT the only father of the modern day Jews nor is Ishmael the only Father Islam.
Colter |
Did the Urantia aliens tell you this? Will you be among the next people to ready themselves to board a spaceship? Don't drink any kool-aid it can be dangerous. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:31 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Did the Urantia aliens tell you this? Will you be among the next people to ready themselves to board a spaceship? Don't drink any kool-aid it can be dangerous. |
No, the celestial beings that met with Abraham at Mamre did:
Genesis 18
1And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground.
....but should I expect to be treated any better then you treated your own prophets?
* there are no "spaceships" in the UB, only seraphic transport. Would you prefer "chariots of fire"?
* they are only "aliens" if we don't know who they are
But really, I will shut up so as not to mess up a good conversation here. Steven created another thread to talk about the UB.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:04 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: |
Did the Urantia aliens tell you this? Will you be among the next people to ready themselves to board a spaceship? Don't drink any kool-aid it can be dangerous. |
Dear towshab and all,
I ask you with all what you love, let us not take the conversation out of it's track. This thread is only for Ishmael - Isaac
I promise you'll find it interesting I'm enjoying as I feel it'll lead us to the truth.
Regards |
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Abdelaleem
Big Goldfish
Joined: 27 Oct 2007
Posts: 66
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| Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: |
The second problem is that during the Babylonian captivity the Jews completely rewrote their history, they took ordinary secular history and transformed it into miraculous history, making themselves a "special race" of Gods chosen people on earth. The OT still contains fragments of truth but is basically a work of exaggerated fiction. All religions which rely on story telling suffer from this practice; fact and fiction combined to inspire men. |
Colter,
I love you very much. What you said should be written by Gold. Now I can say I get benefits from exchanging thought with others in this forum.
I know what you’ve said very much but I wouldn’t expect that too many Christians know it. I read it in Arabic references but I don’t have the others reference.
What Colter said now is my basis to build my case against the OT story.
Thanks Colter.
Steven
I’ll consider what Colter said as a basis of my case. For sure it’s not the evidence but it’s an introductory that I would say it. Now Colter cut it short. OK
Regards
Dear All,
Please don’t take us outside the main discussion to discuss this point. OK.
Regards |
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that is what I meant but thanks for clarifying 
