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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
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 Posted: Mon Oct 22, 2007 7:47 pm Post subject: |
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Kejonn: | Quote: | | Now, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he does only the will of God, then are the "two masters" in opposition to one another? No. |
I'm going to agree with Kejonn but put a simple but slightly different slant on what he stated above.
Jesus is God's son. Not God. However, he was given a great amount of authority over us by God. He is our leader, our teacher, our counselor and our judge as appointed by God. There is a hierarchy. You cannot go to God except through Jesus and likewise, you cannot go to Jesus except through his Father. That hierarchal balance was established by God himself. We do not worship Jesus and leave God out of the equation, therefore, we are not serving two masters. We are serving God by honoring both the Father and His Son as we were commanded. We are acting in obedience to God by reverencing Him and also reverencing His Son.
Love Luv 
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 4:25 am Post subject: |
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Jesus' revelation that "no one gets to the Father except through me" has always been true. He did not say "now there is a new way" he said "I am the way", not "Now I am the way". Jesus was expanding our cosmic consciousness, his revelation was new and previously unrevealed.
"I am the way, the truth and the life"
We now know that our creator Father has a creator Son through whom the world was made. The two of them are unified in oneness. Most Christians don't go behind the curtain of the mystery and question Jesus' teaching like inquisitors, we trust without needing to understand.
Anti Trinitarians would have us believe that our current Lord had a beginning in time, birthed from a women, translated as a human to heaven and given the powers of a God all because God the Father required a beautiful and friendly man to be murdered by a corrupt religion so that the Father could then forgive sin: which goes contrary to what the sacrificed man taught in his religious practice while alive.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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james
Grizzly Bear
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 738
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:43 am Post subject: |
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Composer2005 -
I do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine and I am not orthodox, but am a non-denominational Christian who tends to lean a little more toward the Pentecostal Way, with the exception, I do not believe tongues are evidence.
I am curious though, if none of three choices explains Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38 ( including the whole book) then what is the explanation ? Or how are we to explain what is a seemingly contradiction of scripture ? ( We know scripture does not contradict itself !) |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | Jesus' revelation that "no one gets to the Father except through me" has always been true. He did not say "now there is a new way" he said "I am the way", not "Now I am the way". Jesus was expanding our cosmic consciousness, his revelation was new and previously unrevealed.
"I am the way, the truth and the life"
We now know that our creator Father has a creator Son through whom the world was made. The two of them are unified in oneness. Most Christians don't go behind the curtain of the mystery and question Jesus' teaching like inquisitors, we trust without needing to understand.
Anti Trinitarians would have us believe that our current Lord had a beginning in time, birthed from a women, translated as a human to heaven and given the powers of a God all because God the Father required a beautiful and friendly man to be murdered by a corrupt religion so that the Father could then forgive sin: which goes contrary to what the sacrificed man taught in his religious practice while alive.
Colter |
The idea of a mediator is totally contradictory to the Jewish Bible. To think that Hashem came and changed His mind on this is ludicrous. Show me where a mediator was ever needed to reach G-d in the Jewish Bible. |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:58 pm Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | Kejonn: | Quote: | | Now, if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that he does only the will of God, then are the "two masters" in opposition to one another? No. |
I'm going to agree with Kejonn but put a simple but slightly different slant on what he stated above.
Jesus is God's son. Not God. However, he was given a great amount of authority over us by God. He is our leader, our teacher, our counselor and our judge as appointed by God. There is a hierarchy. You cannot go to God except through Jesus and likewise, you cannot go to Jesus except through his Father. That hierarchal balance was established by God himself. We do not worship Jesus and leave God out of the equation, therefore, we are not serving two masters. We are serving God by honoring both the Father and His Son as we were commanded. We are acting in obedience to God by reverencing Him and also reverencing His Son.
Love Luv |
Very good point.
If you'll allow me, I would like to compliment your thoughts if possible.
An example of the hierarchal relationship between God and Jesus is seen in the testimony of Joseph, as alluded to in Psalm 81 --
3 Blow the trumpet at the new moon, at the time appointed, on our feast day.
4 For this is a statute for Israel, an ordinance of the God of Jacob.
5 He established it for a testimony in Joseph, when he went throughout the land of Egypt
The feast spoken of is the Feast of Trumpets, which points to the triumphant return of Christ to take possession of the Kingdom God is giving to him. The Psalmist mentions in verse 5 that the truth of what this feast represents is seen in the testimony of Joseph, specifically when he "went throughout the land of Egypt." When was this?
Genesis 41:38-46 --
38 And Pharaoh said to his servants, “Can we find a man like this, in whom is the Spirit of God?”
39 Then Pharaoh said to Joseph, “Since God has shown you all this, there is none so discerning and wise as you are.
40 You shall be over my house, and all my people shall order themselves as you command. Only as regards the throne will I be greater than you.”
41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, “See, I have set you over all the land of Egypt.”
42 Then Pharaoh took his signet ring from his hand and put it on Joseph's hand, and clothed him in garments of fine linen and put a gold chain about his neck.
43 And he made him ride in his second chariot. And they called out before him, “Bow the knee!” Thus he set him over all the land of Egypt.
44 Moreover, Pharaoh said to Joseph, “I am Pharaoh, and without your consent no one shall lift up hand or foot in all the land of Egypt.”
45 And Pharaoh called Joseph's name Zaphenath-paneah. And he gave him in marriage Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On. So Joseph went out over the land of Egypt.
46 Joseph was thirty years old when he entered the service of Pharaoh king of Egypt. And Joseph went out from the presence of Pharaoh and went through all the land of Egypt.
Here we have in Joseph and Pharoah a type of Christ and God. Odd as it is to refer to Pharoah as God, in this instance that is what it is. Egypt is the Kingdom of God that He is going to hand over to His son to rule. Here are some interesting points --
1. Pharoah approved of Joseph's character, v39
2. Because of this he exalted Joseph to a position within his house, to receive homage from all the people, v 40
3. Set Joseph over all the land of Egypt, v 41
4. Gave Joseph his own signnet ring (authority to speak and act on Pharoah's behalf), v 42
5. Clothed in garments of fine linen, v 42
6. Arrayed him in fine gold, v 42
7. Had all bow before Joseph, v 43
8. Gave Joseph all power in Egypt, v 44
9. Gave Joseph a new name, v 45
10. Gave Joseph a bride, v 45
Notice two additional interesting points that agree with your post...
1. Pharoah, though giving Joseph all this authority (which clearly shows a hierarchy in itself), told him "only in the throne will I be greater than you", v 40. A hierarchy remained though there was basically no distinction to the Egpytians. To them, Joseph was as Pharoah. To Joseph, Pharoah was still greater.
2. Pharoah gave Joseph his "second chariot", v 43. Another clear revealing of hierarchy.
Paul speaks of this hierarchy in relation to the Kingdom as well --
1 Corinthians 15 --
23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ.
24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power.
25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27 For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him.
28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
Sorry it was a little long, but I hope it was worth consideration.
2P |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | | The idea of a mediator is totally contradictory to the Jewish Bible. To think that Hashem came and changed His mind on this is ludicrous. Show me where a mediator was ever needed to reach G-d in the Jewish Bible. |
Moses.
The Aaronic Priesthood. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| TwoPutt wrote: | | towshab wrote: | | The idea of a mediator is totally contradictory to the Jewish Bible. To think that Hashem came and changed His mind on this is ludicrous. Show me where a mediator was ever needed to reach G-d in the Jewish Bible. |
Moses.
The Aaronic Priesthood. |
Were any of these need to reach G-d in prayer? I suggest you read Psalms... |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 6:29 pm Post subject: |
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| towshab wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | | towshab wrote: | | The idea of a mediator is totally contradictory to the Jewish Bible. To think that Hashem came and changed His mind on this is ludicrous. Show me where a mediator was ever needed to reach G-d in the Jewish Bible. |
Moses.
The Aaronic Priesthood. |
Were any of these need to reach G-d in prayer? I suggest you read Psalms... |
You asked for references in the Jewish Bible that spoke of a mediator. It is abundantly clear that Moses was a mediator between God and the children of Israel. Aaron, and his decendents after him, were as well. I suggest you read Genesis through Deuteronomy. |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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Two-Putt!
That post was not only not too long (the one about Joseph) it was incredibly interesting.
Thank you for pointing that out and making the connection between Joseph and the Pharaoh and God and Jesus.
It's an outstanding parallel.
Now, I have a lot of thinking to do because the church I am attending does believe in the Trinity and so I need to dig a little deeper and find out more about what the churches interpretation of the Trinity is and if it is in keeping with Gods word.
Thanks again,
Love, Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| james wrote: | Composer2005 -
I do not believe in the Trinitarian doctrine and I am not orthodox, but am a non-denominational Christian who tends to lean a little more toward the Pentecostal Way, with the exception, I do not believe tongues are evidence.
I am curious though, if none of three choices explains Matt 28:19 and Acts 2:38 (including the whole book) then what is the explanation ? Or how are we to explain what is a seemingly contradiction of scripture ? ( We know scripture does not contradict itself !) |
Re: Matt. 28:19 KJV - This passage makes no mention of the alleged co-eternity, co-equality or co-substance so hard pressed by the trinitarian.
The baptismal formula given here by Jesus is unique by naming the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.1 In the Acts of the Apostles and Paul's letter's the corresponding formula is simply "baptized into (the name of) the Lord Jesus." (Acts 2:28; 8:16; 19:5; Romans 6:3; Galatians 3:27). It can be inferred then that the latter formula was a type of "shorthand" for the fuller one in Matthew's account and that Jesus is the focus of "the Name" (Acts 4:12).
Jesus was given this name by God (Philippians 2:9-11; Hebrews 1:4) and therefore it was not his inherently but something given to him by the greater (John 14:28). The name was given to him after his crucifixion and therefore he didn't possess it from the beginning. This is why in Revelation 3:12 he calls it his "new name."
Likewise, in the verse beforehand Jesus said, "All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth." (Matthew 28:18). The Father is the one who has given him this power (John 3:35; 17:2; 1 Corinthians 15:28) and he could have done nothing without it (John 5:30; 8:28).
Why then are the three mentioned here together? The simple fact is that these three play an important role for a disciple.
"But it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has commissioned us; he has put his seal upon us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee." (2 Corinthians 1:21-22)
"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied." (1 Peter 1:2)
It is God the Father who has used Jesus Christ and his Spirit to work in the life of a believer. There is no equality here but God the Father as being superior by his working through Christ and the Spirit. (WRESTED SCRIPTURES by Ron Abel)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Footnotes:
This is the only place that the Holy Spirit could possibly be said to have a name.
Cheers! |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Oct 23, 2007 11:02 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Further to twoputts analogy of Joseph and the Pharoah may I also point out the following regarding God's later appointed mediator and intercessor Christ -
The EMPHATIC Diaglott Original Greek NT Text Interlinear ALPHABETICAL APPENDIX TO THE NEW TESTAMENT p. 313 reads: -
And the Word flesh became, and tabernacled among us, (and we beheld the glory of him, a glory as of an only-begotten from a father,) full of favor and truth. (John 1:14) EMPHATIC Diaglott Original Greek NT Text Interlinear 'Word for Word' (LHS)
And the † LOGOS became ‡ Flesh, and dwelt among us,—and ‡ we beheld his GLORY, a Glory as of an Only-begotten from a Father,—full of Favor and Truth. (John 1:14) EMPHATIC Diaglott Original Greek NT Text Interlinear (RHS)
The EMPHATIC Diaglott Original Greek NT Text Interlinear Footnotes, p. 313 Re: John 1:14 reads: -
14. Newcome in his Translation of the New Testament remarks, "Jesus the Son of God, is called the Word, because God revealed himself or his word by him." The following singular Eastern custom may perhaps illustrate the phraseology of the first part of this chapter. "In Abyssinia, there is an officer named Kal Hatze ; the word or voice of the king, who stands always upon the steps of the throne, at the side of a lattice window, where there is a hole, covered in the inside with a curtain of green taffeta. Behind this curtain the king sits; and speaks through the aperture to the Kal Hatze, who communicates his commands to the officers, judges, and attendants .- Bruce's travels (See: EMPHATIC Diaglott #14)
(Composer writes: Thus we can see that Jesus was not "the Word" but rather God's Word was "made manifest / manifested / reflected / revealed" THROUGH Jesus.)
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 3:55 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | The idea of a mediator is totally contradictory to the Jewish Bible. To think that Hashem came and changed His mind on this is ludicrous. Show me where a mediator was ever needed to reach G-d in the Jewish Bible. |
To have seen Jesus was to have seen the Father, that's representation/revelation, not mediation. We are on a long journey, one which goes well beyond this life as we make our way inward to Paradise, the geographical location of the eternal God, Father of our Lord.
Jesus taught of a direct and personal relationship with God wherein man repents (if he was in need of it) and then in faith seeks to find and do the will of God as a personal experience.
In Jesus' religion (not Peter and Pauls post resurrection NEW GOSPEL) man saught forgiveness from the Father and went on to personally experience forgiveness as he forgives others. In Jesus' religion forgiveness was/is a real experience, in Pauls Christian religion forgiveness is theoretical and based on primitive human sacrifice to influence an unchangable God.
One of the great blunders of early Christian writers and theologians was to organize Christianity around Judaism, as if it is a seamless transition from one to the other. Jesus' religion was quite different from Judaism, his revelation of the Father is far superior to the concepts of the OT God.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 8:02 am Post subject: |
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| luvnlife wrote: | Two-Putt!
That post was not only not too long (the one about Joseph) it was incredibly interesting.
Thank you for pointing that out and making the connection between Joseph and the Pharaoh and God and Jesus.
It's an outstanding parallel. |
You're most welcome. That was a study I did a few years back that helped solidify my rejection of the trinity doctrine. |
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towshab
Labrador
Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 6:25 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | Quote: | | The idea of a mediator is totally contradictory to the Jewish Bible. To think that Hashem came and changed His mind on this is ludicrous. Show me where a mediator was ever needed to reach G-d in the Jewish Bible. |
To have seen Jesus was to have seen the Father, that's representation/revelation, not mediation. We are on a long journey, one which goes well beyond this life as we make our way inward to Paradise, the geographical location of the eternal God, Father of our Lord. |
When you pray, do you end your prayers with "in Jesus' name" or anything similar? Then you have used Jesus as your "middle man" to G-d. This is totally foreign to Jewish scripture.
| Quote: | | Jesus taught of a direct and personal relationship with God wherein man repents (if he was in need of it) and then in faith seeks to find and do the will of God as a personal experience. |
Why would I need another man to have a relationship with Hashem? I used to think so back when I was a Christian, but that is certainly not the case.
| Quote: | | In Jesus' religion (not Peter and Pauls post resurrection NEW GOSPEL) man saught forgiveness from the Father and went on to personally experience forgiveness as he forgives others. In Jesus' religion forgiveness was/is a real experience, in Pauls Christian religion forgiveness is theoretical and based on primitive human sacrifice to influence an unchangable God. |
I can almost agree here. Forgiveness was already available before Jesus hit the scene though.
| Quote: | One of the great blunders of early Christian writers and theologians was to organize Christianity around Judaism, as if it is a seamless transition from one to the other. Jesus' religion was quite different from Judaism, his revelation of the Father is far superior to the concepts of the OT God.
Colter |
Haha, so you are admitting that YHVH and the god of Christianity is a different god. Good for you, at least you are honest enough to admit you worship an idol.
Zec 8:23 Thus says the LORD of hosts: In those days ten men from the nations of every tongue shall take hold of the robe of a Jew, saying, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.'"
Glad I already found my robe. Maybe you should look for one before that day? |
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Luvnlife
Lion King
Joined: 22 Feb 2007
Posts: 1200
Location: US
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| Posted: Wed Oct 24, 2007 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hello Two-Putt; I know I already told you this but the post regarding Joseph and the Pharoah & quoted the verses from 1 Cor 15 was outstanding and made a very compelling argument.
I was wondering if you would mind copying that post to another thread: Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> The Trinity Discussion.-> Trinity: Biblically supported?? I say NO WAY!!!
It's more solid proof that the Trinity is incorrect.
I have already posted multiple verses that show the Trinity doctrine is false including several stating that there is ONE GOD. (These verses do not say one GODHEAD they say one GOD). There are verses that say that we are not to worship other Gods and many other verses stating that Jesus is the Son who has come to do his Fathers will. Matt 19:17 says "And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."
I would appreciate it if you would share that post on the thread I mentioned above as I am thinking of taking the information on that post to my Pastor to clarify who he believes Jesus is.
Thanks,
Love, Luv
_________________
Matthew 6:21
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
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