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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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 Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:42 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Hi Dust,
Is that the best you have to offer in lieu of anything credible to support you, the answer is obviously yes!
False teachers in Christ's time falsely accused him of being 'sanctimonious as well' because they also, just like you now, just 'can't handle the Truth against your / their current misguided ideology.
Cheers!
Last edited by composer2005 on Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:07 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:02 pm Post subject: |
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| composer wrote: | | Is that the best you have to offer |
Yes, all I have to offer is my perspective. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:10 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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It's a pity for you that your 'current perspective' is carnally based and not Scripturally based as is the unambiguous Scriptural evidence against your current misguided ideology.
Cheers! |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 9:32 pm Post subject: |
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composer,
I recommend a spoonful of that medicine as well! |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 15, 2007 10:58 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Yes if you take your own advice then indeed 'at least a spoonful of the Truth (that currently evades you) a day, will chase your current (trinitarian) ideology away.
Cheers! |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 10:06 pm Post subject: |
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Look composer, today Christians are all in the same boat....we're trying to figure things out...beyond the milk of the word. You fighting against the trinity doctrine brings nothing to the table.....absolutely ZERO! You have no legitimate argument.
Give me something that I can at least pause to consider.....perhaps some deep philosophical thought that forces me to question the trinity. Because so far you, Steven, TBax, the Mormons, and all your non-trinitarian company have presented nothing of substance......and futhermore, to tell you the absolute truth composer, I sense that you are not truely sincere in your position.
There is only one true way.....the devil will come at you from a million different angles.....look at the anti-trinitarian company you are in.....you have nothing......nothing legitimate.
You and all these other anti-trinitarian groups that have cropped-up here in the end-times are simply fullfilling the biblical prophecy of end-time false teaching....period.
It's as plain as the nose on my face! |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:54 am Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Dust wrote: | | Look composer, today Christians are all in the same boat . . . |
That's your second biggest mistake Dust. The Christ Adelphians (and those like them) are NOT in your sinking ship / boat.
Their doctrine agrees enormously (more than any other group I am aware of) with legitimate Scripture. Mormons, trinitarians, J. W's, Muslems and a few others you mentioned are on a similar sinking ship to yours.
It is more than noticeable that you just can't present legitimate evidence using the Bible to try to support your current cause, but instead you come across with stuff like, "plain as the nose on my face, the spirit told me, I feel good about what I currently believe" etc. excuses etc.
What you need to do is substantiate your current ideology with legitimate Biblical and Historical evidence to support you and you either don't, or fail every time?
I realise your frustration at not having a legitimate Scriptural leg to stand on but hey! that's your problem, you just blindly (like Adam) stick to what YOU want to do or believe instead of (like Christ) heeding what God says.
| Dust wrote: | | Give me something that I can at least pause to consider.....perhaps some deep philosophical thought that forces me to question the trinity. |
Well I have pointed this out to you (and recently to Colter) but I shall do so again - The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Saul (later Paul) and personally commissioned him (Acts 26:15 — 18) KJV to teach Christ's God given Gospel (John 5:30) KJV
Thus Christ has the fullest and uttermost confidence in Paul's correct Gospel Teachings. Now the question becomes, "Did Paul or any of the Original Disciples / Apostles either teach 'the trinity' or believe 'that Christ was God?'
The unequivocal answer is NO! and your own trinitarian Scholar admits it. - Here read it again Dust -
The late Dr. W R Matthews, Dean of St Paul's Cathedral, wrote:
"It must be admitted by everyone who has the rudiments of an historical sense that the doctrine of the Trinity, as a doctrine, formed no part of the original message. St Paul knew it not, and would have been unable to understand the meaning of the terms used in the theological formula on which the Church ultimately agreed". (27) (My BOLD)
Or more recently:
"In order to understand the doctrine of the Trinity it is necessary to understand that the doctrine is a development, and why it developed. ... It is a waste of time to attempt to read Trinitarian doctrine directly off the pages of the New Testament". (28) (My BOLD)
27. "God in Christian Thought and Experience", p.180.
28. A & R Hanson: "Reasonable Belief, A survey of the Christian Faith, p.171-173,1980
I have the firmest footings to support me but you have a foundation of sand.
Now 'please' try and be mature about this. If you are able and get into providing something that actually supports your current ideology, as you continually see it collapse before you, God willing, you will eventually 'see the light?'
Cheers! |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| composer2005 wrote: | The Christ Adelphians (and those like them) are NOT in your sinking ship / boat.
Their doctrine agrees enormously (more than any other group I am aware of) with legitimate Scripture. |
We see how Scripture is divided differently, among folks, right here in these forums. So one story apparently appears good to you (the christadelphian story), another story appears good to someone else, and so-on....
The scriptural evidence for or against the trinity doctrine has been debated for centuries by men who were probably much smarter and more holy than us. As I look back on these debates, it's easy to see that it is trinity beliefs that have endured and been with the GROWING body-of-Christ.
Utilizing a little common sense, let's look at the Body-of-Christ vs. Arius on the matter of trinity beliefs.
How do we know that the Council of Nicaea was part of the body-of-Christ? Because it's this same conuncil and/or the next generation of it, that God used to canonize the Holy Bible. The very Bible that we hold so dear today. If God had used the Arians to canonize and send out His Holy Word to the whole world, then we would know that it is the Arians who were part of the body-of-Christ.
| composer2005 wrote: | Well I have pointed this out to you (and recently to Colter) but I shall do so again - The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Saul (later Paul) and personally commissioned him (Acts 26:15 — 18) KJV to teach Christ's God given Gospel (John 5:30) KJV
Thus Christ has the fullest and uttermost confidence in Paul's correct Gospel Teachings. Now the question becomes, "Did Paul or any of the Original Disciples / Apostles either teach 'the trinity' or believe 'that Christ was God?' |
Obviously the body-of-Christ vs. Arius debate delt with Paul's writings, which, as you should know, are used both for and against the doctrine. Now, what you are actually saying is that Paul did not use the specific words used by the Council of Nicaea. Fine, point well taken, but the principles of the trinity doctrine are/were seen in the writings of Paul, and the rest of the Bible, by the body-of-Christ. I myself see them in these same writings. Now, as to the verbage of the stated trinity belief, these did not need the establishment of a formal statement or creed, until Arius and/or those like him pushed the point.....and, as I have stated, once the point was pushed, and the doctrine was clearly and formally written, God selected those who wrote the doctrine, to canonize and send out His Word to the ENTIRE WORLD, just as they were commissioned to do.
Thus we have THE END of the Arian story....which is now being ressurected here in the end times under various code names, as it were, and it comes in a variety of flavors as well.
Not only is the Father/Son/HolySpirit concept (pertaining to the trinity), as outlined in the NT and really the entire Bible, spiritually discerned....it makes sense when all things are logically considered. |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | composer2005 wrote: | The Christ Adelphians (and those like them) are NOT in your sinking ship / boat.
Their doctrine agrees enormously (more than any other group I am aware of) with legitimate Scripture. |
We see how Scripture is divided differently, among folks, right here in these forums. So one story apparently appears good to you (the christadelphian story), another story appears good to someone else, and so-on....
The Scriptual evidence for or against the trinity doctrine has been debated for centuries by men who were probably much smarter and more holy than us. As I look back on these debates, it's easy to see that it is trinity beliefs that have endured and been with the GROWING body-of-Christ. |
You mean you belong to the 'GROWING trinitarian body of christ guided by and historically founded upon the trinitarian holy spirit that imposed Laws of torture and death against those that would not yield to it. oh that one, yuck!
| Dust wrote: | Utilizing a little common sense, let's look at the Body-of-Christ vs. Arius on the matter of trinity beliefs.
How do we know that the Council of Nicaea was part of the body-of-Christ? Because it's this same conuncil and/or the next generation of it, that God used to canonize the Holy Bible. The very Bible that we hold so dear today. If God had used the Arians to canonize and send out His Holy Word to the whole world, then we would know that it is the Arians who were part of the body-of-Christ. |
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. 15 Therefore [it is] no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works. (2 Cor. 11:14 - 15) KJV
| composer2005 wrote: | Well I have pointed this out to you (and recently to Colter) but I shall do so again - The Lord Jesus Christ appeared to Saul (later Paul) and personally commissioned him (Acts 26:15 — 18) KJV to teach Christ's God given Gospel (John 5:30) KJV
Thus Christ has the fullest and uttermost confidence in Paul's correct Gospel Teachings. Now the question becomes, "Did Paul or any of the Original Disciples / Apostles either teach 'the trinity' or believe 'that Christ was God?' |
| Dust wrote: | | Obviously the body-of-Christ vs. Arius debate delt with Paul's writings, which, as you should know, are used both for and against the doctrine. Now, what you are actually saying is that Paul did not use the specific words used by the Council of Nicaea. Fine, point well taken, but the principles of the trinity doctrine are/were seen in the writings of Paul, and the rest of the Bible, by the body-of-Christ. I myself see them in these same writings. Now, as to the verbage of the stated trinity belief, these did not need the establishment of a formal statement or creed, until Arius and/or those like him pushed the point.....and, as I have stated, once the point was pushed, and the doctrine was clearly and formally written, God selected those who wrote the doctrine, to canonize and send out His Word to the ENTIRE WORLD, just as they were commissioned to do. |
The trinitarians 'commissioned themselves' by imposing Laws of torture and death on those that stood in its ungodly way. God in His wisdom enabled His Original and non-trinitarian Gospel to be proclaimed to the few that truly embraced it (e.g. Christ Adelphians), despite those who did their utmost to corrupt it by their deeds.
Cheers! |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| Dust wrote: | | How do we know that the Council of Nicaea was part of the body-of-Christ? Because it's this same conuncil and/or the next generation of it, that God used to canonize the Holy Bible. The very Bible that we hold so dear today. If God had used the Arians to canonize and send out His Holy Word to the whole world, then we would know that it is the Arians who were part of the body-of-Christ. |
Anyone holding to this idea needs to read Metzger:
The canon of Arius and Athanasius was identical, indicating that the canon was established well before Nicea.
Pseudepigraphic and apocryphal material, both OT-Apocrypha and NT-Pseudepigrapha, did continue to circulate in some Trinitarian circles. Particularly favoured by Clement of Alexandria http://www.ntcanon.org/table.shtml
Back to the subject, the Trinity is disproved by Christ having died. God cannot die.
God bless
Steven |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:19 pm Post subject: |
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| composer2005 wrote: | The trinitarians 'commissioned themselves' by imposing Laws of torture and death on those that stood in its ungodly way. God in His wisdom enabled His Original and non-trinitarian Gospel to be proclaimed to the few that truly embraced it (e.g. Christ Adelphians), despite those who did their utmost to corrupt it by their deeds.
Cheers! |
Hi Composer,
Good morning  Couple of suggestions
1. While I appreciate that you're using your own term of faith Christ Adelphian, and not the denominational name Christadelphian, I'm a little concerned that anyone searching for the name on this forum is only going to find sparring, and so I'd suggest to all of us on this and other threads that we all not bandy around denominational names casually, or names that are over-similar. I realise that certain individuals like to provoke by throwing labels, but the thing to do is turn the other cheek and concentrate on presenting Bible verses. As you have done.
2. Regarding bringing up history/persecution, I don't think you will get far on this line of reasoning. Those who take the view that the majority is right inevitably must also believe that God has commissioned the church to use force in repressing "false teaching", so making general or specific reference to the poisoning of Arius, persecution of Socinians in the 16th-18th Century, etc.etc., only adds to the conviction that if the church persecuted Arians, then that proves that God is behind the Trinity. What we need to do instead is to challenge the foundation of the assumption that God sanctions force, violence, in the preservation of his word. And the way we can do that is by demonstrating NT verses that (a) the true church is not to use force, and (b) Paul prophesied a falling-away.
God bless
Steven |
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Dust
Growing Lion
Joined: 10 Sep 2004
Posts: 883
Location: All over the western U.S.
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: |
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| Steven3 wrote: | | Paul prophesied a falling-away. |
Hello Steven, I must say I like the initial tone of your last post, however, it kind of fell-away a bit at some point. I detect a little bitterness in amongst the soothing tone.
Anyway, regarding the falling-away, wouldn't you consider the Protestant Reformation the restoration of this falling-away? |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2007 12:03 am Post subject: trinity discussion |
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Thanks Steven3,
I appreciate your modus operandi and to explain mine in this Topic, is that by pointing out that the only way trinitarians could 'spread their gospel' was by foul means not fair i.e. their doctrine was obviously introduced to those they wanted to encourage to become fellow trinitarians but was considered 'flawed and unscriptural' by them according to legitimate Biblical examination and so they turned to violence and atrocities to convince them what a loving and non-violent trinitarian god they had to offer.
Thank you |
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