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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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 Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:37 pm Post subject: "Lord God" |
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I think part of the reason the Trinity arose is that the Septuagint fell out of favor with Jews. Because of this, the Christians who knew little of the significance of YHVH removed the letters from the Septuagint and replaced them with "kurios", thus making for the first instance (as best as I can tell) of YHVH being referred to as "Lord". And this trend continued as English Bibles started translating YHVH or "Y'hovah" as LORD. Now move on to the NT where Yeshua is Lord ("kurios")....
However, we have ample evidence of the phrase "LORD God", or "YHVH Elohim" in the OT ("kurios theos" in the Septuagint?). Here then is the "test": Is Yeshua ever called "kurios theos" in the NT?
_________________
Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:36 am Post subject: Re: "Lord God" |
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| kejonn wrote: | | I think part of the reason the Trinity arose is that the Septuagint fell out of favor with Jews. Because of this, the Christians who knew little of the significance of YHVH removed the letters from the Septuagint and replaced them with "kurios", thus making for the first instance (as best as I can tell) of YHVH being referred to as "Lord". And this trend continued as English Bibles started translating YHVH or "Y'hovah" as LORD. |
Hi Kejonn,
This is not actually accurate. The replacement of YHWH in the Septuagint was a Jewish Tradition. As I understand it the Jews became superstitious about the name YHWH and to prevent it from being blasphemed they forbid anyone from speaking it or writing it. The Septuagint was written in Alexandria, Egypt by 70 Jewish Priests who were commissioned by King Ptolemy to translate the scriptures into Greek so that he could understand it. If you visit a few Judaism websites you will find that most still uphold this ancient tradition of men by using the term Lord and when writing God they write G-d.
| kejonn wrote: | Now move on to the NT where Yeshua is Lord ("kurios")....
However, we have ample evidence of the phrase "LORD God", or "YHVH Elohim" in the OT ("kurios theos" in the Septuagint?). Here then is the "test": Is Yeshua ever called "kurios theos" in the NT? |
Last year my mum came to me with excitement and said, "Do you remember when we were Catholics how we had a crucifix with YHWH on the signpost at the top to the cross." I said to her, "No it wasn't. It said INRI." My mum was a little disappointed to hear me say this but had to agree that I was right. But she went digging on the internet and found the following:
And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was near to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Joh 19:19-20
LATIN = Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm
GREEK = Iesous Nazoraios Basileus Ioudaios
HEBREW=Yeshua Hanozri Wemelech Hajehudim.
Maybe the chief priests had a far deeper problem with the title on Jesus' Cross then what we have previously realized. And maybe it was the Lord's will that Pilate refused to change it:
Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written. Joh 19:21-22
Cheers
Bitterlily
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:40 am Post subject: Re: "Lord God" |
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| bitterlily wrote: | | kejonn wrote: | | I think part of the reason the Trinity arose is that the Septuagint fell out of favor with Jews. Because of this, the Christians who knew little of the significance of YHVH removed the letters from the Septuagint and replaced them with "kurios", thus making for the first instance (as best as I can tell) of YHVH being referred to as "Lord". And this trend continued as English Bibles started translating YHVH or "Y'hovah" as LORD. |
Hi Kejonn,
This is not actually accurate. The replacement of YHWH in the Septuagint was a Jewish Tradition. As I understand it the Jews became superstitious about the name YHWH and to prevent it from being blasphemed they forbid anyone from speaking it or writing it. The Septuagint was written in Alexandria, Egypt by 70 Jewish Priests who were commissioned by King Ptolemy to translate the scriptures into Greek so that he could understand it. If you visit a few Judaism websites you will find that most still uphold this ancient tradition of men by using the term Lord and when writing God they write G-d.
| kejonn wrote: | Now move on to the NT where Yeshua is Lord ("kurios")....
However, we have ample evidence of the phrase "LORD God", or "YHVH Elohim" in the OT ("kurios theos" in the Septuagint?). Here then is the "test": Is Yeshua ever called "kurios theos" in the NT? |
Last year my mum came to me with excitement and said, "Do you remember when we were Catholics how we had a crucifix with YHWH on the signpost at the top to the cross." I said to her, "No it wasn't. It said INRI." My mum was a little disappointed to hear me say this but had to agree that I was right. But she went digging on the internet and found the following:
And Pilate wrote a title, and put it on the cross. And the writing was, JESUS OF NAZARETH THE KING OF THE JEWS. This title then read many of the Jews: for the place where Jesus was crucified was near to the city: and it was written in Hebrew, and Greek, and Latin.
Joh 19:19-20
LATIN = Iesvs Nazarenvs Rex Ivdaeorvm
GREEK = Iesous Nazoraios Basileus Ioudaios
HEBREW=Yeshua Hanozri Wemelech Hajehudim.
Maybe the chief priests had a far deeper problem with the title on Jesus' Cross then what we have previously realized. And maybe it was the Lord's will that Pilate refused to change it:
Then said the chief priests of the Jews to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. Pilate answered, What I have written I have written. Joh 19:21-22
Cheers
Bitterlily |
Any evidence of what you claim about the Hebrew, Latin, and Greek?
_________________
Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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bitterlily
Big Pit Bull
Joined: 15 Jul 2007
Posts: 398
Location: Australia
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:46 am Post subject: Re: "Lord God" |
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| kejonn wrote: | | Any evidence of what you claim about the Hebrew, Latin, and Greek? |
Evidence as in what? 
I don't have the actual inscription from Jesus cross no, but I do know for a fact that the crucifix in our house had the letters INRI.
I google searched and found an example of the crucifix we used to have:
http://www.themostholytrinity.org/images/crucifix.jpg
_________________
In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. He that believes on me, as the scripture has said, out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Joh 7:37-38
As a lily among thorns, So is my love among the daughters. Son 2:2 |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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BL,
Well, there's 1 out of 3...now on to the Latin and Hebrew  .
_________________
Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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Monothiest
Tadpole
Joined: 06 Sep 2007
Posts: 25
Location: new york
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:22 am Post subject: |
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Kejonn, I think you hit the nail on the head here.
I think the rendering of "LORD" instead of God's actual name and Jesus being our Lord was involved in the confusion.
We can tell that Jesus and Almighty God are two seperate beings. Jesus is THE SON OF GOD (so simple but so polluted) "one like a son of man" in Dan 7 presents himself to the "Ancient of days" who is the Almighty. And ofcourse psalm 110.1 "YHWH (or YHVH) said to my Lord, 'Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies beneath your feet'". The two beings are distinguished all of the time in scripture. Sarah called Abraham Lord, that did not make him her God? Bathsheba called David Lord aswell.
I'm sorry for ranting, My point is (I think) that we really need an understanding of the the culture and language of the bible and the people in it. Lets look at scripture without any preconcieved ideas or doctrines and see how it really presents God and Jesus. |
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