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StElsewhere
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 Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:21 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | Quote: | | I consider heterosexual ...people who are married and faithful to one spouse...as fulfilling the word of the LORD...and you? |
Then you must have a problem with Abraham, Isaac, ...
gee...there's a whole bunch in the OT that were married and not exclusive with one partner...  |
In the OT things were done differently...Jesus and the Apostles ...God blessed a multi-wife home of a righteous men...but with Christ in the NT ..the Apostles had to turn people away from such practices...but they knew it would take time to undo centuries of tradition....starting with establishing that Bishops should be the husband of one wife...They want to start with the top to set the new example...Putting away the old...beginning the new...
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;  |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 6:54 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Colter"]Forum,
An observation. Heterosexual Christain's find it quite easy to confess the so called sins of homosexuals because it's a diversion from getting honest about their own.
Have not ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God? or in you mind...homosexuality is NOT a sin?
They are oblivious to the teaching of Christ that such judgments and condemnation of people who were created Gay is an unforgivable sin because they are blocking their own forgiveness by their judgment on Gays.
If your contention is that Gays are BORN that way...I can see you point...that is exactly why the WOG says...We ALL must be BORN AGAIN...good point!...true or not...BTW: there is only one unforgivable sin... and calling a spade a spade is not it...
These same people who so violently speak against gays get a little more "humble" when speaking about their own shortcomings like lust, pride, greed, sloth, anger, jealously and the like, they are not quite so self righteous.
Dude/Dudette: What part of ALL HAVE SINNED that you think excludes homosexuals?
Some of them hates Gays because they have homosexual tendencies and actually hate themselves.
Funny you would say that...I've been in search of one person to tell me ..."What is so gay about being Gay?".. Do enlighten me!
They hide behind the so called "word of God" because they are moral cowards, they are of the ilk of the Pharisees who also hid behind the scripture when condemning Jesus.
I don't have to hide behind the WOG ...the WOG is just that...the WOG ...and it stands on its own...I stand ON the WOG...sorry it doesn't condone the lifestyle choice ...speaking of ilk... you seem to endorse....and no matter how you slice it or dice it ...to fit YOUR conception of the it should say... is notwithstanding.
Christianity is currently a house seriously divided and being overtaken by Islam as we have gone off in all directions away from the simple Gospel of faith and Love of Jesus. Rather then alienating yet another social group it would be better to return tho the unadulterated teachings of Jesus of Nazareth.
What you fail to comprehend...Jesus Christ is God... the same Jesus ho you want to never get angry or to bring judgment down upon...all who do evil in His sight...that same Jesus...was God when the OT law was established.
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Ever read:
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Judge not that you be not judged.
Filling judged...maybe you confuse it with "Conviction" ???? ....conviction is a GOOD THING!
Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: ... |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 7:53 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: | | Quote: | | I consider heterosexual ...people who are married and faithful to one spouse...as fulfilling the word of the LORD...and you? |
Then you must have a problem with Abraham, Isaac, ...
gee...there's a whole bunch in the OT that were married and not exclusive with one partner... |
In the OT things were done differently...Jesus and the Apostles ...God blessed a multi-wife home of a righteous men...but with Christ in the NT ..the Apostles had to turn people away from such practices...but they knew it would take time to undo centuries of tradition....starting with establishing that Bishops should be the husband of one wife...They want to start with the top to set the new example...Putting away the old...beginning the new...
1Ti 3:2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; |
So a Bishop needs to be blameless...like the Priests who are blameless who profane the sabbath?
Not given to wine, even though Paul chides timothy on having a little wine for his stomach sake...
I saw something:
Tts 3:15 All that are with me salute thee. Greet them that love us in the faith. Grace [be] with you all. Amen. [[[It was written to Titus, ordained the first bishop of the church of the Cretians, from Nicopolis of Macedonia.]]]
Tts 1:10 ¶ For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision:
Tts 1:11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake.
Tts 1:12 One of themselves, [even] a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians [are] alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;
Tts 1:14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth.
Now the commandment is to those who desire the office of a bishop...that they should have one wife.
what about those who don't desire the office?
can they have more than one?
And why was it ok then but not ok now...why did God change his mind even after he says he changes not?
You believe that it is "lawful" to be the husband of one wife...but we are not under the law true?
what about fornication and adultery in the OT?
did God bless those who were righteous to be able to sin and to be blameless?
I'm not pickin on you StElsewhere...just trying to get too the root of the matter..
hugs
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | Have not ALL sinned and come short of the glory of God? or in you mind...homosexuality is NOT a sin? |
Sin is to know the will of God and choose to do otherwise. If someone is born Gay (wired for same sex attraction) then telling them not to be Gay is like telling heterosexuals to not be heterosexual.
Just as the evolution of Judaism added all kinds of man made rules and sub catigories of rightiousness to the commandments so has Christianity added all kinds of rules to the Gospel of a faith based personal relationship with the Father. Have yea faith? then have it to yourself!
| Quote: | | Dude/Dudette: What part of ALL HAVE SINNED that you think excludes homosexuals? |
The part where you rationalize your hatred for them as some sort of service to diety.
| Quote: | | I don't have to hide behind the WOG ...the WOG is just that...the WOG ...and it stands on its own...I stand ON the WOG...sorry it doesn't condone the lifestyle choice ...speaking of ilk... you seem to endorse....and no matter how you slice it or dice it ...to fit YOUR conception of the it should say... is notwithstanding. |
The Son of God is the Word of God, always has been. Holy Men wrote the Bible, some more holy then others.
| Quote: | | What you fail to comprehend...Jesus Christ is God... the same Jesus ho you want to never get angry or to bring judgment down upon...all who do evil in His sight...that same Jesus...was God when the OT law was established. |
The OT law was established by men and written about in retrospect as if it was God talking. Jesus didn't act anything like the tyrant God of the OT. All that Mosses could get God to do was say I Am That I Am. The rest is evolved religion. The man made law of the OT had religious people stoning others to death for minor parking violations.....Jesus overruled such primitive behavior in one sentence, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Nothing more needed to be said!
| Quote: | Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Ever read:
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: |
dito
| Quote: | Filling judged...maybe you confuse it with "Conviction" ???? ....conviction is a GOOD THING!
Jhn 8:9 And they which heard [it], being convicted by [their own] conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, [even] unto the last: ... |
The word is "lving" and present with us.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:35 am Post subject: |
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So a Bishop needs to be blameless...like the Priests who are blameless who profane the sabbath?
Not given to wine, even though Paul chides timothy on having a little wine for his stomach sake...
Now the commandment is to those who desire the office of a bishop...that they should have one wife.
what about those who don't desire the office?
can they have more than one?
No...what you don't understand...polygamy was world wide from the beginning of time... Jesus and the Apostles were bringing a new way to live out from under the law...it meant that things had to change ...however slowly...
And why was it ok then but not ok now...why did God change his mind even after he says he changes not?
Did Christ not come to put away the old to establish the new?
In that which the law was weak...established He the new:
Hbr 10:9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.
The law...the first wife...was put away...and Grace...the new wife was established...therefore everything...all but keeping the Sabbath, and the Ten Commandments has been set aside... for the new ...By Grace are we saved through faith...no longer through sacrifice...
You believe that it is "lawful" to be the husband of one wife...but we are not under the law true?
There is Lawful...and the LAW...The LAW we are no longer under...is there not the lawful and the expedient? ...I am not using double -speak really!...read:
1Cr 6:12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.
Should one seek to be under the LAW again... after Christ has brought us out from under it? Why?
1Cr 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Meaning...you could follow it...the LAW but to what end?...if does not edify ... either the individual or the Body of Christ as a whole?
what about fornication and adultery in the OT?
Now there are something that carried over from OT to NT... anything sexual ...moral... were carried over... but the stoning that was allowed ...no ordered un der the Law...was NOT carried over...rcef: Jesus and the woman cauht in adultery...He personally ending the practice of stoning...did He not?
did God bless those who were righteous to be able to sin and to be blameless?
This question truly confuses me...I can't make heads nor tails of it..
I'm not pickin on you StElsewhere...just trying to get too the root of the matter..
No problemo....Sis...Let's get to the root...
hugs
I said no hugs...before...and no hugs now! LOL |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 8:48 am Post subject: |
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sorry missed the no hugs thing...
So if the OT law is gone then the law about man lying with man isn't in effect right?
or is only some of it ok and some of it not ok?
and then your going to give me the verse about men working with man that which is unseemly...
but it's only unseemly because it's a jewish fable according to the epistle of titus right?
I find it unseemly that Paul says he trevails in birth...seeing he is a man.
not only once but twice.
But now we need to take literally the part about men working with men, but not about Paul trevailing in birth.
there has to be some kind of consistancy doesn't there?
so are they using hypotheticals or did Paul really give birth?
no hugs
lone...
LOL..
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:18 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | FFT wrote: | | Do you choose who you're sexually attracted to? |
Yes! ...just as you do and everyone else does |
Really? You claim to have a choice in the matter of who you're sexually attracted to?
| StElsewhere wrote: | | You see there in lies the big difference between you and I ...I believe that the KJV is authorized by the True and Living God...as His written word given to mankind ... effectively bringing His written word out of the Dark Ages and our of the ancient languages...Into the marvelous light. |
And this is idolatry. The KJV was authorized by King James. Two English Bibles before it were "Authorized Versions."
| StElsewhere wrote: | | For that very reason you rarely see me use the word "BIBLE"... I have and always will refer to the 1611 KJV as the WOG... you don't have to...but hey!...that's me! |
Funny, the verses you quoted didn't look like this: "Thou shalt not lie with mankinde, as with womankinde: it is abomination."
| StElsewhere wrote: | | Evee wrote: | | Thinking that homosexuality is a choice shows that you are not learned in that area. Choosing whom you sleep with, if that's what you're talking about, that I agree is a choice. However, when a little girl notices another little girl on the playground thinking she's cute & a little boy noticing another little boy on the playground thinking that he's cute -- how can that be a choice? |
Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it.
What is the child being taught in the home? Heather has two Mommies?...or Daddy has a roommate? |
Two of my good friends are twins.
One is gay, the other is not.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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StElsewhere
Guest
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:23 am Post subject: |
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Sin is to know the will of God and choose to do otherwise. If someone is born Gay (wired for same sex attraction) then telling them not to be Gay is like telling heterosexuals to not be heterosexual.
So you say ... if one was "Born that way" ...then God made a mistake?...Look ...God only made one fluke...and it was a fish! ... So anyone who feels in their mind they were born that...fine ...that is why the WOG says we ALL must be "BORN AGAIN"...Read:
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
I see no exceptions for the homosexual...if you do please give chapter and verse!
Just as the evolution of Judaism added all kinds of man made rules and sub catigories of rightiousness to the commandments
True..that was against God and why Jesus came to do away with the Law...and establish Grace.
so has Christianity added all kinds of rules to the Gospel of a faith based personal relationship with the Father. Have yea faith? then have it to yourself!
| Quote: | | Dude/Dudette: What part of ALL HAVE SINNED that you think excludes homosexuals? |
The part where you rationalize your hatred for them as some sort of service to diety.
And whom do you claim I hate?
The Son of God is the Word of God, always has been. Holy Men wrote the Bible,
This is true
some more holy then others.
This you're gonna have to prove!
The OT law was established by men and written about in retrospect as if it was God talking.
And your authority for this is????
Jesus didn't act anything like the tyrant God of the OT.
Dude...Jesus Christ is the SAME OT GOD
Ever Read:
Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
The man made law of the OT had religious people stoning others to death for minor parking violations.....Jesus overruled such primitive behavior in one sentence, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Nothing more needed to be said!
True...but is this what you base your salvation on... that verse?
| Quote: | Hbr 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Ever read:
Eph 3:9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: |
The word is "lving" and present with us.
True again...and His name is Jesus Christ the Crucified!
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 642
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | I tell the truth about the WOG ...and I defend it fiercely... and for that I can nor will I ever apologize...If people are offended by the WOG...it is because the WOG cuts like a two-edged sword... not me! |
I can completely understand that. I defend fiercely as well.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Sis...there hasn't been one thing you have said that I have taken offense to on any level...I am surprised that you think you have been abrasive...you haven't...so no need to apologize...but I'll accept it if it means that much to you... |
Good to hear.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Evee...Look ... I call a spade a spade ...not an earth moving implement ...this is an adult forum and we all use shorthand ... and abbreviated terms |
I'll try to remember that it is an abbreviation b/c you're too lazy to type out the whole thing.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | Have you ever read?:
Tts 1:13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; |
Yes I have. Can we also turn that around on you?
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | I defend the WOG as best as the LORD has given me knowledge and understand to do so....I don't play with God or His word!...neither do I allow others to and let it go unchallenged. |
And I also defend the WOG as best as the Lord has given me knowledge & understanding. I do not play w/God & the word either. I try to understand it using the resources available to me. And what resources are those? Commentaries, history lessons about other cultures, science, God gave us all this knowledge. Do we just sit by & not use it to understand His word better? When are you going to realize that the WOG can be found in more than just one source? God does not stay silent after the pages are closed. He speaks through OTHER means. And that's to help us understand what He's trying to say when we read those words.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | If you want me to learn that which is contrary the WOG...NOT...but I do learn things everyday...I learned what QED means...Proud of me? |
If you take into account the cultures & ritualistic practices of those nations around Israel at the time these Leviticul laws were written, the text makes better sense & it is not contrary at all. Reading a text from the WOG w/o understanding the culture behind the words is reading the words on the page blindly. And it also can cause misinterpretation. You will come away w/one meaning when the text meant something totally different. I equate it to when Jesus was trying to talk to the Pharisees. They came away w/a different meaning than what Jesus intended.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | I would tell that teenage who ...when pass the age of 12 ...that they are responsible for their soul and is answerable to the One True and Living God ...that No matter how we think we are born ...no matter how we "feel"...there is right in the sight of the LORD and there is that which is sin... and that is why the WOG says we ALL MUST BE BORN AGAIN... and I would warn them about acting on such ungodly and unnatural impulses...and as far as alienating them...these days nearly nobody tell teens that there is anything that is WRONG or SIN...they are constantly bombarded with if you feel it ...just do it!... I would probably have done more to help when that teens sould then anything else they've learned from this cruel world...
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You do realize don't you that children start to be attracted to others younger than 12 years old?
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Me?... ohhh around 12...had my first kiss and my 13th birthday. |
Have you ever in your life been attracted to the same sex?
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | No... that is not what I am saying...with me having no knowledge of those languages...I can't independently confirm what they are putting forth as a "better" translation...as truth...do you you understand what I am saying?...a person fluent in Aramaic ...can tell me anything...can't they?...How do I know it's true? How do I do as the word say to do... "study to show thyself approved"?...Study Aramaic? Get real!...that is why my best choice to to stick with the tried and true...Good Ole KJ!...is it 100% ...verbatim? No...But it is the best the world has got going! |
Sorry, but this whole speech you gave just proved that you refuse to learn from others w/linguistic credits.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Good for you...but I don't want ANY teaching that is contrary what the WOG has to say...My faith is rock solid...I shall not be moved!...and That is just where these 52 years have planted me...and I am blessed for it. |
Go figure. So have I. And I disagree w/you on this subject. My faith is rock solid too. I stand on the firm foundation of Jesus Christ. God is my rock. It's a shame that if you would actually listen & learn from what others are saying, then you would see that the lessons we've learned aren't contrary to the WOG at all.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Look ...The WOG doesn't morph over time... understanding is increased in one of two ways ... in truth or in deception ...any doctrine that says the WOG doesn't condemn homosexuality is a LIE from the pit of hell...and Sis..if that offends you ...with all the love I have in me ... I don't care if it hurts...it is the truth...and it is an abomination in His sight...] |
This is your opinion & you're entitled to it. I don't agree.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Sooo the LORD told you that homosexuality is NOT an abomination before Him?... |
This would be the one.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Correct...but where do you read that we are to pick and choose the parts of the WOG we agree with ...and to discard the parts that rubs us the wrong way?...Ummm...I believe the "For God so loved the world..." part ...but the ..."Mankind is not to lay with mankind as with a women is an abomination"...part is not of my liking so I choose to ignore this ...This doesn't mean what it says it means...but the part about God loving everybody is... OH REALLY? |
It is you who say I'm ignoring this part or discarding it. I am not. You don't believe me. That isn't my problem. Discarding it would be to say, "To heck w/what it says, I'm doing what I want anyway." Finding out about the culture & rituals that were a part of other nations before I make a judgement on a WOG text is delving into the scriptures further, not discarding them.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Surely not...but the better question is Does Jesus know the person?...For in that day MANY shall say LORD, LORD...but I will say "Depart from Me I knew thee not". |
You don't know that & neither do I.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | As a man thinketh so is he! |
I agree. So no matter how hard a homosexual tries to "think" straight (which doesn't happen, believe me), they will always be homosexual. Sounds kind of bleak doesn't it? But thank God for the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | I'm assuming you're talking about a sexual "lifestyle" b/c other than that, there really is no difference between hetero vs homosexual.
Double -Speak! |
How so?
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Mea Culpa!...feel better?( |
Apology not meant. I should have known. The rolling eyes was a dead give-away. Next time just refuse.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Whatever |
Nice rebuttal. What are we in, grade school?
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | What is the child being taught in the home? Heather has two Mommies?...or Daddy has a roommate? |
In my home, all of us are as heterosexual as can be. Raised in church. Jesus Christ as our head of household. Tell me, how did the little sis end up homosexual? Shocker, homosexuals come from straight homes too. Can you believe it?
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Sure...and I do everyday... but when the so-call "Deeper" things are contrary to the written word...I choose to believe the word.. there is the big divide between you and I... |
Hmm...Now I don't believe the word. Interesting. After I have repeatedly acknowledged that I do believe the word. I just take away a different meaning than you do. So now, if I don't believe the way YOU do, I'm a liar & a fool. I have told you over & over & yet you refuse to see. I do not believe the knowledge I have acquired is contrary to the WOG. In fact, it gives a better understanding of it.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Yeah...Pharaoh rejected the word of the LORD and od hardened his heart ...or said better He turned him over to a reprobate mind... same thing...Beyond repentance! |
Hmm...this would compare if it was true that homosexuals turned against God like Pharoah did. But they (at least the ones that I know) don't. As a matter of fact, it was my homosexual sister who drew me closer to God. Imagine that.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | Why is it that people like you only speak of Jesus' love...but never His anger and judgment?...Does He not have the other side too? |
I do not only speak of Jesus' love & ignore His other side. I realize that I, along w/everyone else will be judged. But you know what? I'm not scared. B/C I know where my firm foundation stands & I know that I have lived my life acting on my faith. Isn't that what Jesus encouraged His followers to do? It seems that you're ignoring His love & only speaking of His anger & judgment.
| St. Elsewhere wrote: | | People are likely to say anything...and I sure you know that... it is no different than how a Catholic calls themselves "Christian"...They lie to themselves if that idol worshiping scarlet beast has anything but the full wrath and judgment of God coming to it... A Catholics Holy Father is the POPE...Not Jesus....So a homosexual can be in a pentecostal church shouting...speaking in tongues and testifying ... it is all about any god you want to call it...But not about The Only True and Ling God...Jesus the Christ! |
Ironically, I agree w/you on Catholicism, but that's for another thread. But it is not up to I to decide who is a "true" Christian & who is not. That is up to God to decide. I don't want to usurp His authority. 
_________________
Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The OT law was established by men and written about in retrospect as if it was God talking.
And your authority for this is???? |
My authority is the "God revealing life" of Jesus of Nazareth. He didn't follow OT law because neither he nor the Father wrote them.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: |
The OT law was established by men and written about in retrospect as if it was God talking. Jesus didn't act anything like the tyrant God of the OT. All that Mosses could get God to do was say I Am That I Am. The rest is evolved religion. The man made law of the OT had religious people stoning others to death for minor parking violations.....Jesus overruled such primitive behavior in one sentence, "let he who is without sin cast the first stone". Nothing more needed to be said! |
Even further, one should consider God's character in the OT. God kills Onan for not impregnating his sister in law? So, God is for brother in laws sleeping with sister in laws? And, yes, the bible does read that God blessed males with more than one wife. If these things are wrong, I believe they should be wrong per God's character immediately from the beginning. Especially if God's character is the same and neverchanging. These are things that lead me to believe that these are the beliefs and traditions of humans found in the bible. Presented as if by God, but really created by humans and found in the bible. Which translates as being from God because of it being in the bible. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 2:59 pm Post subject: |
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| summertime wrote: | | Even further, one should consider God's character in the OT. God kills Onan for not impregnating his sister in law? So, God is for brother in laws sleeping with sister in laws? |
There was a pretty good reason for that. The purpose of the law was to give your late brother a descendant. If he'd already had a kid or three the law wasn't applied.
Onan was killed for using the law to his advantage. Instead of impregnating his sister-in-law for his deceased brother, he was just trying to have as much sex with her as he could manage.
But this isn't really related to the point you were making which I actually agree with.
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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dabmci
Ferret
Joined: 27 Jan 2008
Posts: 116
Location: Wylie
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: |
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All this talk about God telling old testement people to have more than one wife and it was ok for men to sleep with men and women to sleep with women is just crazy. God's purpose for mankind was to populate the earth. If you say man made the rules about men not sleeping with men you have miss the point. God would not and should not have to speak on this because he Spoke in the Gen. Telling Adam that Woman was made for man and to be fruitful and populate the earth. Common sense people. How would this goal be met if God decided to created people that had a desire for the same sex. God gave each and everyone of us the ability to make choices just like the choice to eat from the tree of good and evil. We are born Man and Woman God said woman was made for man why is this so hard to understand. No matter how many wives OT people had that was not Gods intention and he did not look on that behavior and good behavior. If so that would be a contrdiction of what he said and what Jesus said. Come on people this is a subject we all sould be in agreement on. Just like all sin hate the sin not the sinner. Jesus was the teacher of that.
God Bless |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6096
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:35 am Post subject: |
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| dabmci wrote: | | All this talk about God telling old testement people to have more than one wife and it was ok for men to sleep with men and women to sleep with women is just crazy. God's purpose for mankind was to populate the earth. If you say man made the rules about men not sleeping with men you have miss the point. God would not and should not have to speak on this because he Spoke in the Gen. Telling Adam that Woman was made for man and to be fruitful and populate the earth. Common sense people. How would this goal be met if God decided to created people that had a desire for the same sex. God gave each and everyone of us the ability to make choices just like the choice to eat from the tree of good and evil. We are born Man and Woman God said woman was made for man why is this so hard to understand. No matter how many wives OT people had that was not Gods intention and he did not look on that behavior and good behavior. If so that would be a contrdiction of what he said and what Jesus said. Come on people this is a subject we all sould be in agreement on. Just like all sin hate the sin not the sinner. Jesus was the teacher of that. |
We've done far too well at the bolded bits, so what possible reason could there still be against homosexual behavior? What would God still have against it?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
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summertime
Rattlesnake
Joined: 21 Aug 2003
Posts: 444
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| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:20 pm Post subject: |
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| dabmci wrote: | | All this talk about God telling old testement people to have more than one wife and it was ok for men to sleep with men and women to sleep with women is just crazy. |
Gosh, I've been away from this forum far too long (smile). There is at least one verse I can think of in the bible that speaks to God giving a male bible character more than one wife. If I can remember where it is, I will post it. But I doubt that would do you justice although it would be there clear as day for you. Also, I can only speak for myself, and I did not say that God said it was ok for men to sleep with men. Back in those days, it was not okay, which is why you have references to it in certain places of the bible. However, men with men in those days was not about relationships, love, living together, and what today's gay relationships consist of as far as relationships go. Men with men was opposed in those days due to what their context was and represented: idolatry. That should not be hard to understand. But then again, I'm having to explain it for the millionth time (not literal), so I guess it's hard for some still to grasp.
| Quote: | | God's purpose for mankind was to populate the earth. |
I've heard this lots of times, so I'm used to hearing/reading it. I'm also used to responding to it. If you approach Genesis and the Creation story in just the way you described it, its purpose would indeed be to populate the earth. However, as I see it, the Creation story should not be approached this way. You miss things when you do. The point of the Creation story is not:
1. To say that only males should be with females.
2. To say that only females should be with males.
3. To say that heterosexual couples are the only acceptable unions to God.
4. To say that every heterosexual couple (ie. male/female union) should have children.
These things are not the point and intent of the telling of the Creation story. It's about creation and its story of being created. It is a story told by its author to convey how things came to be. How they came to exist. How we came to be and exist. It's not about how God wants only males to be with females. Think about it, if we were to take the story so literal as it is written then this is what we would have to conclude:
1. That all heterosexuals SHOULD have children and, thus, be fruitful and multiply.
2. That a marriage license is not necessary for marriage. Well, I actually agree with that one (smile).
3. That every male's wife literally came from his side or rib and then they became his wife or woman.
All of these are absurd to believe. Well, except the second one. And not just because I agree with it. I doubt that after, let's say, 20 years of marriage, a couple would not consider themselves married if they lost their marriage license and all proof of their marriage was lost in courts and such. I believe they would still consider themselves married. The Creation story is simply telling the reader how the author believed things came into existence. As far as the gay issue ties in here, Genesis is more about how humans need other humans. If you notice the story closely, God finds the adam lonely and in need of a companion. Now, notice how God creates animals AFTER noticing that the adam is alone and lonely. The creation of the animals was to be the solution for the adam's loneliness. God being God should have known that the animals would not do the trick. The text also has God STILL noticing the adam's loneliness after God brings the animal creatures to the adam. It's like God thought the animals would do the trick, but when God saw that it did not do the trick, God says, "The adam is STILL lonely". This is definitely a STORY written by a human telling how things came to be as seen via the author's eyes of life. It's a story!! The point that no animal cured the human adam of its loneliness and, therefore, ensuing the creation of another human for the adam shows that one point of the Creation story is how humans need humans. Yes, a female was created for the adam and not another male, but that is beside the main point. Besides, the image of God is BOTH male and female. God is Spirit and God's Spirit consists of both male and female characteristics. Similarly, we as humans have both masculine and female characteristics. Some more than others. Some males look feminine. Some females look masculine. Some males act feminine. Some females act more masculine. Some males have high girl like voices. Some females have low male like tones to their voice. It's all intertwined. We're all intetrwined in one way or another. And just as a text in the bible says how God does not look on the outward appearance (ie. race, gender, type of clothes, etc.), I find that God is not concerned about the outwardness of two people who come together in a union of love and commitment. Male and femaleness. Masculine and femininity are not JUST things associated with one's gender. It can refer to one's characteristics, manners, responses, feelings, etc. He may be like a woman in some way or she may be like a man in some way, but that's because God is both masculine and feminine since God's image is both male and female. We (humans) are made in God's image and if males AND females are made in God's image than that has to mean that God's image consists of both maleness and femaleness.
| Quote: | | God would not and should not have to speak on this because he Spoke in the Gen. Telling Adam that Woman was made for man and to be fruitful and populate the earth. |
It is your belief that it is God speaking in the Genesis story. If you read what I wrote above, you know that I don't believe that. A human wrote the story, not God.
| Quote: | | Common sense people. How would this goal be met if God decided to created people that had a desire for the same sex. |
This quote speaks about having children. The Creation story is not about who is capable of having children. As stated before, I view the story as making the point of answering the question of how things came to be. How did the world come to exist? How did humanity come to exist? Where did animals come from? Who made the sky and all things in it? The waters and the things that dwell therein? This is the intention, I believe, of the story. And, no, it was not written by God as I see it. If it were written by God then God would already know by verse 19 of chapter 2 that a sufficient helpmeet for the adam would be another human. Instead, the author has God first realize that the adam should not be alone (verse 18). Then implying an answer to the adam's loneliness, verse 19 has God creating animals. Hoping to end the adam's time alone. In verse 20, the author's view has God realizing that the animals were not suitable for the adam. If this were actually written by God, God would have created another human for the adam in verse 19 instead of animals after pointing out the adam's loneliness in verse 18. That's just how I see it. The adam's loneliness is pointed out and thereafter, animals are created. Why? For the adam and his loneliness. But the animals were of no sufficient cure for the adam and his loneliness. God would have known that if God had written this. A human author, on the other hand, can input creative license and try to make his story make sense. An author trying to explain God and why God does what God does. No human can really do that, but that does not stop us from trying to explain God. I think some of what we believe about God is true. Some of it, however, is not. The bible is the words of men about God. The only reason most Christians believe it is the Word of God is because it was taught to them from birth or from when they could first begin to understand. You don't know what you're taught until you're taught it. So, two persons of the same gender can manifest the male and femaleness of God's image and I believe God is okay with that since God's Spirit consists of both male and femaleness. And male and femaleness is not just limited to one's outward genitals or body. God's image was the beginning of the characteristics. Humanity was made in the image of those characteristics.
| Quote: | | No matter how many wives OT people had that was not Gods intention and he did not look on that behavior and good behavior. |
If I could show you a verse that implies that God blessed a man with more than one wife, what would you say next? |
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