IN THE BEGINNING, GOD CREATED.

VCO · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 178

I grew up in the 60s in Nebraska, Class of 1967 to be exact. During that decade and thereafter, teachers began intensely push Evolution into the minds of their students, saying that Evolution was a proven Science fact. When in REALITY, it has never been more than an unproven Theory; hence they are forever searching for missing links. Teachers in Grade Schools and High Schools were also victims of College Professors, who at that time would do ANYTHING, to prove the Bible wrong, and get Christianity out of our Public Schools. Sadly, some even stooped to deliberate hoaxes to try to convince the public that the missing link had been found. The professors involved probably justified what they were doing by telling themselves, "After all we know a real missing link will soon be found anyway." One such hoax embarrasses me, because it was perpetrated by a geologist from Nebraska, Harold Cook, and Henry Fairfield Osborn, a paleontologist. Their so-called "Missing Link" became know as the "Nebraska Man", but was later proven to be the teeth of an extinct peccary, a close relative to the pig.

The movement to GET GOD OUT of the Public Classrooms caused a great deal of heated debates, especially in the Mid-West. That led to the publishing of a book in 1968 entitled: "The Great Monkey Trial", based on the true story of the actual trial of the State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes (1925). Later that book was turned into a movie entitled: "Inherit the Wind". The amazing thing is, that the Judge's decision in the 1925 trial was that both Creationism and Evolution should be taught in the Public School. AS we all know, that was not good enough for the hard core Evolutionists, and efforts intensified to ban the teaching of Creation, like wolves that had gotten the smell of fresh blood.

Energized by the perceived win of 1925, Evolutionists, eagerly searched for a way to get the teaching of Creation totally banned in the Public Schools. Eventually they picked up on a phrase "separation of Church and State" used on page one of a letter written by Thomas Jefferson to the Congregational Church, of which he was a member. Sadly when it finally did get to the Supreme Court, according to the late Dr. James Kennedy, our Lawyers failed to examine page two, where President Jefferson, went on to explain what he meant by that phrase. It is true that President Jefferson did write: "there is an implied separation of Church and State written into the Constitution." However, on page two he explained that the "separation" is a one way barrier forbidding Government from becoming involved in the running of Churches, while at the same time protecting the right of Christians to be involved in the running of Government. So our Lawyers literally blew it! President Jefferson said it was a one way barrier, but because of the oversight on the part of our Christian Lawyers, it has been implemented as a two way barrier.

Armed with the "NEW" definition of "Separation of Church and State"; Evolutionist found it easy to get Bibles removed from the Public School Library (they were there when I went to High School), and the Ten Commandments that hung in the Public School hallways (they were there when I went to School). AND THUS, teaching Creationism completely disappeared out Public Schools with the threat of Jail Time or Fines for violators. As a result, every one of us that attended Public Schools, were influenced by the teaching of a Theory, as Scientific Fact; which it was not. Many of us Christians, including me began to try to find some middle ground to cling to, that fell between Biblical Creationism and the Scientific Theory of Evolution.

I came out of High School then, thinking that "Creation and Evolution" were the same words; it was just a matter of how you interpreted it. I had falsely convinced myself that Evolution was how God Created. And went about proud myself for coming to that false conclusion. After I became born again in 1978, and I began to seriously study the Bible, I was shocked at how quickly I proved my own theories wrong, and that Biblical Creationism and Evolutionary Theory are OPPOSITES.

Biblical Creationism is GOD the Father willed Creation, and the pre-Incarnate Christ did the will of God and Created instantaneously or in a very short amount of time, everything in its adult or mature state. Whereas for example, Scientists will look at a stalactites in a cave and figuring how long it takes those minerals in the water to pile up and harden, THEN make a estimate of how old that stalactites is based upon the PURE ASSUMPTION that there is no such thing as instantaneous Biblical Creation, and THEREFORE they ASSUME that the stalactites started as on drop of water at the top of the ceiling. NEVER in a million years would the "wisdom of unbelieving men" come to the conclusion that it is possible that God Created that stalactites 14 feet long. Scientist, who do not believe in GOD, will always automatically ASSUME the starting point or origin of everything is ZERO or NEAR ZERO, hence the Big Bang Theory, conveniently leaves GOD totally out of the picture. NOTHING in their natural minds can conceive a HOLY GOD so Powerful that He can Create everything that is, instantaneously from nothing.

I know there are many waiting to type and claim, the age of the earth has been PROVEN. But I say, "ONLY IF the starting point is ZERO or NEAR ZERO, and the wisdom of men is greater than the POWER of God." Every ounce of so-called Scientific Proof is based upon the ASSUMPTION "that GOD did not Create it, therefore it had to of happened like this." And what does God think of "the wisdom of men"?

Isaiah 44:24-25 (NKJV)
24 Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, And He who formed you from the womb: "I am the Lord, who makes all things, Who stretches out the heavens all alone, Who spreads abroad the earth by Myself;
25 Who frustrates the signs of the babblers, And drives diviners mad; Who turns wise men backward, And makes their knowledge foolishness;

1 Corinthians 1:20-21 (NKJV)
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

1 Corinthians 1:27 (KJV)
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

1 Corinthians 2:5 (NKJV)
5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.

How do I know God Created very quickly in a very short amount of time? AND, Do I have any Biblical Proof? ABSOLUTELY, He gave us an example of how HE Creates with NUMEROUS witnesses. Did He Create in Stages? ABSOLUTELY, it took six days. Is a day to God the same as we know it? Probably not, because it does say in 2 Pet. 3:8 that ". . .with the Lord one day is as a thousand years . . ." Was he referring to what a day is like to us or to Him? That is a matter of speculation, however let's look at the example that proves Jesus is the Creator and how he Creates:

Genesis 1:1 (NKJV)
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Colossians 1:16 (NKJV)
16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.

Malachi 3:6 (NKJV)
6 "For I am the Lord, I do not change; Therefore you are not consumed, O sons of Jacob.

Hebrews 13:8 (NKJV)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

John 6:5-13 (NKJV)
5 Then Jesus lifted up His eyes, and seeing a great multitude coming toward Him, He said to Philip, "Where shall we buy bread, that these may eat?"
6 But this He said to test him, for He Himself knew what He would do.
7 Philip answered Him, "Two hundred denarii worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may have a little."
8 One of His disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, said to Him,
9 "There is a lad here who has five barley loaves and two small fish, but what are they among so many?"
10 Then Jesus said, "Make the people sit down." Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand.
11 And Jesus took the loaves, and when He had given thanks He distributed them to the disciples, and the disciples to those sitting down; and likewise of the fish, as much as they wanted.
12 So when they were filled, He said to His disciples, "Gather up the fragments that remain, so that nothing is lost."
13 Therefore they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves which were left over by those who had eaten.

AND Jesus did what? HE Created more fish, and more fish, and more fish; until the crowd that included 5000 men had eaten "as much as they wanted". And how long did it take Him to Create the fish? NOT millions of years. AND did He start by making single cell organisms that had to evolve for millions of years before they became fish? NO He Created adult size fish? AND how old would every Scientist today say those fish were after examining them, even under a microscope? NOT Created instantaneously a few moments ago. AND what would every unbelieving Scientist say the origin of those fish were? NOT Created, they would all say they evolved from single cell organisms, because they ALWAYS ASSUME that the ORIGIN of everything, is near ZERO. THUS, "WHAT WAS THE STARTING POINT?", IS THE MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION, in determining whether God Created or whether it just Evolved.

Personally, I think that the reason that hardcore Evolutionists fight so hard to prove "God Created" wrong; is that if they do not have to believe in Gen. 1:1, then they can pick and choose whatever else they do not want to believe is True in Scripture.
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Titus 2:13
VCO

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

Hi VCO,

Your conclusions are in full flight from the reality and facts of God's ordained laws of the sciences.

If your hypothesis were correct then God created the world in it's present state to appear as if it evolved, making it look like it is quite old. Why? to trick us? why did he violate his own mathmatical laws?

I think that there is another problem at work here, pride! Religious pride has prevented many religions from escaping from primitive superstition and growing along with scientific discovery. Religion is very adept at confessing the sins of others but terrified of confessing it's own stubborn weakness as an institution.

Like Rachel and her household God's, the Bible itself has been made into a fetish or household God because man wants the world to make sense, he wants to be comfortable in the world, his fears and insecurities betray him into reducing the world to understandable finite terms. He doesn't want to leave any room for "mystery", in the end he wants to control God as a theory rather than a quest.

"In olden times the fetish word of authority was a fear-inspiring doctrine, the most terrible of all tyrants which enslave men. A doctrinal fetish will lead mortal man to betray himself into the clutches of bigotry, fanaticism, superstition, intolerance, and the most atrocious of barbarous cruelties. Modern respect for wisdom and truth is but the recent escape from the fetish-making tendency up to the higher levels of thinking and reasoning. Concerning the accumulated fetish writings which various religionists hold as sacred books, it is not only believed that what is in the book is true, but also that every truth is contained in the book. If one of these sacred books happens to speak of the earth as being flat, then, for long generations, otherwise sane men and women will refuse to accept positive evidence that the planet is round". UB 55

There are many scientific facts which disprove the primitive story of young earth creation (debunk the stubborn pride of creationist, who forget that the poor in spirit are happy).

One would be the speed of light, a constant:

"Astronomical distances are sometimes measured in light years (the distance that light would travel in one year, roughly 9.46×1012 kilometres or about 5.88×1012 miles). Because light travels at a large but finite speed, it takes time for light to cover large distances. Thus, when we see the light of very distant objects in the universe, we are actually seeing light emitted from them a long time ago: we see them literally as they were in the distant past." Source Wiki

During the time when Genesis was written in Babylonian captivity there were several creation stories in existence. The ancients lived in such a different age that it's understandable that they would have these creation stories, however there is no excuse in this age to continue to teach such absurdity.

In all the pride of Bible worshippers it never occurs to them that God created and fostered the earth by way of evolution.

Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God."

The Barbarian · Hamster Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 86

VCO · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 178

VCO · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 178

AC · Newbie Alert Joined: 29 Sep 2007 Posts: 1

I have a few questions for the above posters, or anyone else for that matter:

1) If the universe is 15 - 20 billion years old, how do we know that the speed of light has been steady for that same amount of time.
If the speed of light has been "observed" for the last 100 or so years, would we in fact detect minute changes in that speed? Even if it has in that amount of time, why would one reasonably claim that because it has been constant for 100 or so years that we can assume that it has been constant throughout those 15-20 billion years? Isn't that a bold assumption?

2) How can radio metric dating be considered reliable for the same reason, especially since we do not know what mechanism causes it or controls it? What reason makes us believe that the world is in fact so old? A cataclysmic flood causing rapid deposition and erosion could cause many or all the formations that we see today.

3)

FFT · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:28 am Post subject:

[qutoe="AC"]2) How can radio metric dating be considered reliable for the same reason, especially since we do not know what mechanism causes it or controls it? What reason makes us believe that the world is in fact so old? A cataclysmic flood causing rapid deposition and erosion could cause many or all the formations that we see today.[/quote]Because if unstable atoms decayed at higher rates in the past it would have cooked the Earth?

Because there isn't any evidence for a worldwide cataclysmic flood?

The Barbarian · Hamster Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 86

The arrest of Scopes was faulty because the law prohibited teaching that God was not creator of man. Teaching evolution does not deny that. It merely teaches how man was created.

As you might know, young earth creationism is a doctrine of the Seventh Day Adventists. At the time of the Scopes trial, most creationists were Christians, and believed in a very old universe, as Bryan stated in the procedings.

Barbarian observes:
Nope. The Founders intended both freedom of religion and freedom from religion. In fact, if you read the Constitution, you'll find that freedom from religion comes first.

The Barbarian · Hamster Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 86

Colter · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 20 Mar 2007 Posts: 409

Forum,

The problem here is that people are making a God out of the Bible. It's easier to have faith in the Bible then to have faith in the indwelling spirit of God.

Fanaticism comes into play when people denigrate the mind that God gives man leaving him insecure about his own logic and susceptible to cultic mind control.

Primitive man was a myth maker, truth is compromised when it is woven into these ancient myths.

2000 years ago Tylenol would have been a "miracle" yet now we know how to do it. The so called miracles of Jesus may not be miracles to him at all but merrily an understanding of how to manipulate the laws of physics well beyond our understanding (but without violateing those laws).

Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God."

eleven · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:43 am Post subject:

Colter wrote:

The Barbarian · Hamster Joined: 24 Sep 2007 Posts: 86

Never define God in terms of what man cannot do.

Who knows what we'll be able to do in the future.

VCO · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Aug 2007 Posts: 178

FFT · Posted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject:

atoz · Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: