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StElsewhere
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 Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:53 am Post subject: Re: God cares? |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | firegreen wrote: | | i personally dont believe a word of this creation story, sounds a little far fetched for me. |
The creation story itself is fine as long as you read it as it was intended: metaphorically. |
Ditto!...every knee shall bow and every tongue confess...that Jesus Christ is LORD  |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 12:59 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | Hi firegreen,
And what I'm about to say is my opinion. And is not intended against anyone.
The one thing that you wrote that stuck out the most to me was that even animals have homosexual relations.
While this may be true, I believe that mankind should consider themselves more advanced than the animals.
And that the reason I believe man was told to not have homosexual relations is for the very reason that we see manifesting today. Disease to ones body.
The OT in my opinion has to do with the care and well being of the body, where the NT has to do with the heart and mind.
There is only a verse or two that gives warning about such relations that come from the heart and mind.
Can homosexuality cause a lack of growth in one's spiritual walk?
I don't know. But it may in others.
If I say to you, it's better for you to refrain from doing this because it may cause you physical death...then it is considered a "judgement" call on my part.
That I'm judging whether you have faith in God according to how you use your body. So that comes down to works of the law.
Is it because I don't believe you have faith? or is it because we have been told that this is not the right way to hmm..work your body?
Is it through compassion and concern that one doesn't want to see another take a chance on their health?
The same goes for prostitution, switching partners, because the chances of contracting a disease is far greater.
A lot of the laws in the bible are for our own good. So that we remain healthy and take less chances at getting diseases.
And maybe the fear of the old testament is exactly what we see today, millions of people infected and dying and so it was to be prevented at all cost. Not only for those who were not in that lifestyle, but those who were heading that way.
If I was to say, if you do this thing then you will be taken outside the camp and stoned. Would it deter you? would you fear for your life that you would be killed?
Yet that fear of being stoned may have saved your life from many years of sickness and disease...and the rest of the people would not have been subjected to it either.
I can understand the reasoning and the measures that were taken to prevent some awful things from happening. But the way some people go about explaining seems harsh and judgmental. But in fact sometimes you have to be tough to prevent a worse thing from happening.
Maybe putting the fear into someone is truly an act of love.
In the OT it does not say that if you are guilty that you will burn forever in hellfire. It says you will be stoned.
In the NT it is your mind that gets burned..the body profits nothing.
It's the conscience that is seared with a hot iron, because while doing something that seems good in ones own eyes, may not be good for the whole world.
If you knew that you were the first one to put this rapid disease into play...would you still do whatever it was you wanted to do..if you could see in the future all the men women and children being destroyed because of a personal desire...would you still do it?
And maybe this is where the conscience comes into play. That knowing that doing such things can cause such catasrophe later on..still find pleasure doing it anyways.
And my final opinion would be..
Do whatever it is you want to do, but please take every precaution to avoid taking chances with other peoples lives.
I am not your judge, I am your friend.
And only out of love do I warn you from what has already been witnessed by what has happened to others.
Mankind is supposed to be more intelligent than animalkind..
Let's not lower ourselves to the lusts of an animal. Maybe they don't get the diseases..but people sure do.
Just think about your neighbour...sometimes it could save your own life.
Peace
Lone
hey P123...I hear you man..
practice what I preach..  kick the habit..
some evils just don't appear as evil as others huh?
but it's all the same.. 
not much difference between homosexuality and smoking.
Both of them can kill you and those around you...
I'm listening..
God Bless
Lone |
[b]
Ditto...again!...Every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess...the Jesus Christ is LORD! Why counsel some one to do that which the end of is death? ... homosexuality is NOT the same as smoking...the WOG never states that smoking is or ever was an abomination8-) |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:13 am Post subject: |
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[quote="FFT"] | lone-traveler wrote: | | And that the reason I believe man was told to not have homosexual relations is for the very reason that we see manifesting today. Disease to ones body. |
There isn't some magical "Gay Disease" that only homosexuals get. They are subject to the same disease risks as heterosexuals.
The disease is: SIN
The problem is that many don't take precautions because hey, it's not like they're going to get their partner pregnant.
The wages of all sin is: DEATH
| lone-traveler wrote: | | A lot of the laws in the bible are for our own good. So that we remain healthy and take less chances at getting diseases. |
As I see it, you've got a logical disconnect going on here.
Homos want you to think they are just like everyone else...
Why are there diseases in the first place?
Ever read:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | because we rebel against good teaching.
And I'm not getting into the animal sacrifices..
There's a lot in those laws that no one is willing to honestly look at and see what doing or not doing certain things mean in the long term.
They weren't meant to give people a right to hammer and kill people with stones, but to deter them from harming themselves or the community in some way.
Some laws God says he gave that were not good. There are laws in there that only are there to weed out those that follow them because they are easily led into whatever they're told. And others are for real and true correction and teaching.
Why did God tell them not to combine wool and linen...
There are meanings within this that have nothing to do with the wool and the linen..but when you start pulling apart the threads you are given a deeper understanding than the clothes themselves.
A lot of the laws were given for "sign" what to stay away from and beware of...and it also kept them seperate from the world around them.
How many other peoples were seperating wool and linen? probably not many if any.
The wool belongs to the sheep and the linen belongs to the priests. The priests were given the linen because they were not supposed to sweat....no sweat, keep cool...
They were there to calm the sheep..the sheep sweat it out and the priests kept their cool..LOL..
You can take any law and say..what the heck was that for? that's stupid...ok but because we don't understand why they were given or how they were applied, then to us they become nothing more than someones way to dictate and rule with no common sense in mind.
But some of them understood. Some of them knew that the laws represented them. If they could read the writing, they might be able to see themselves..alas many just saw what was written and didn't apply it to themselves.
I believe that's why God gave them the law. So that by it and through it, it would be a witness of themselves and who they were.
As you go on through the bible and you watch the temple being built, you can see how they were deteriorating on the inside even though they were glorious on the outside.
Ahh..FFT so hard to look under the writing and see the heart of the matter.
where were the diseases to begin with? where did they come from?
A lot of the food laws of clean and unclean came into play here. They didn't have the "science" we have today.
A lot of the diseases were already in the world around them.
God didn't cause Aids or any other diseases. But man creates the diseases themselves by eating and doing things that are not good for the body to eat and do.
If a monkey has a unique disease only within that kind, and another kind goes and messes with that monkey, then they have the ability to contract whatever that mankey has.
I don't know where Aids come from..I'm only going by the stories I've heard...But if the law said do not lie with a beast it is an abomination...maybe somebody knew huh?
And if that monkey hadn't been messed with, which by the way was unclean because it didn't meet the requirements of clean meats..then it may have never gotten started.
But because somebody decided to do something outside the "norm", then well, could be that what happened was what was trying to be avoided.
There are a lot of sexual diseases. And if they are between the two in contact alone. Then it stops there and goes no farther.
But if adultery, fornication, promiscuity, prostitution..whatever..occurs, then the chances of those diseases being spread like fire are increased.
Isn't this commonsense? Am I blowing it all out of proportion?
maybe it's just the way how I can see a snowball turning into a mountain..
Hugs..Emperor.. 
Lone |
OMG...must every post be cathartic?  |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:36 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | lone-traveler wrote: | | where were the diseases to begin with? where did they come from? |
Yes, this is where I see a logical disconnect in your thinking.
| lone-traveler wrote: | | God didn't cause Aids or any other diseases. |
And this is where you seem to be disconnected.
This is God we're talking about, remember. Do you believe that God did not create the various diseases on Earth, or at least allow them to be created? |
What you get wrong is the sequence of events...it is man's sin that brings disease upon themselves:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
Recompense means : Just rewards...some diseases are created in man ...by himself...with direct causation being the doing of that which is unseemly before the LORD...and the rest are either pestilence or some man-concocted release...But NOT for the righteous
Psa 91:1 He that dwelleth in the secret place of the most High shall abide under the shadow of the Almighty.
Psa 91:2 I will say of the LORD, [He is] my refuge and my fortress: my God; in him will I trust.
Psa 91:3 Surely he shall deliver thee from the snare of the fowler, [and] from the noisome pestilence.
Psa 91:4 He shall cover thee with his feathers, and under his wings shalt thou trust: his truth [shall be thy] shield and buckler.
Psa 91:5 Thou shalt not be afraid for the terror by night; [nor] for the arrow [that] flieth by day;
Psa 91:6 [Nor] for the pestilence [that] walketh in darkness; [nor] for the destruction [that] wasteth at noonday.
Psa 91:7A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; [but] it shall not come nigh thee. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:18 am Post subject: |
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| sofyst wrote: | | I personally think homosexuality is natural, or instinctual. But that in no way condones the behavior. It is naturally to want to have sex, but that doesn't mean you should act upon these desires every chance you get... |
Boy...Isn't it a good thing that we don't have to live according to what you think ...Well even if you and the rest of humanity thinks people are "born that way"...that is why the WOG say: WE ALL MUST BE BORN AGAIN!...soooo with your understanding...is it ok for a person the "think" homo...but not "Do" homo?
Don't you know that as a man thinketh ...so is he? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5887
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:28 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | What you get wrong is the sequence of events...it is man's sin that brings disease upon themselves:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. |
Still using Romans 1 without understanding, I see.
In Romans 1 God turns humans against their natural orientation as a punishment for idol worship. It in no way is claiming that homosexuality itself is unnatural, only for those who weren't already. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:36 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | StElsewhere wrote: | What you get wrong is the sequence of events...it is man's sin that brings disease upon themselves:
Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. |
Still using Romans 1 without understanding, I see.
In Romans 1 God turns humans against their natural orientation as a punishment for idol worship. It in no way is claiming that homosexuality itself is unnatural, only for those who weren't already. |
..and in what version do you read that?... What God does is turn their MINDS reprobate...once they have given their lives over to homosexuality... you are still trying to make that which is abominable to the True and Living God ...seen not so bad...or you are just trying to put lipstick on that pig...(homosexuality) to turn it into what?... "Gorgeous Swine"? |
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Zathrus
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Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | Still using Romans 1 without understanding, I see.
In Romans 1 God turns humans against their natural orientation as a punishment for idol worship. It in no way is claiming that homosexuality itself is unnatural, only for those who weren't already. |
Very good observations. I even think, from reading Romans 1, that Paul had a only a certain group of humans in view, and only in a certain stretch of history. And this was all only to make a specific point.
What's written there can't be applied to all humanity in all times. |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2007 1:21 am Post subject: |
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Very good observations. I even think, from reading Romans 1, that Paul had a only a certain group of humans in view, and only in a certain stretch of history. And this was all only to make a specific point.
What's written there can't be applied to all humanity in all times.
To accept this you must discount Paul's authority under Christ...this was the authority given to all of the 12 read:
Mat 18:18 Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
therefore....their word is SCRIPTURE...no different than if Jesus Himself spoke them...and binding on all...who say they are the LORD'S |
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Zathrus
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Posts: 2207
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 5:32 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | [b]
To accept this you must discount Paul's authority under Christ...this was the authority given to all of the 12 read: |
Not at all. I'm simply understanding what Paul really meant, and who he was writing about.
I don't deny Paul's authority under Christ. But you are taking something he said about a certain group of people and broadening it to include everyone. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 6:38 am Post subject: |
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| StElsewhere wrote: | | sofyst wrote: | | I personally think homosexuality is natural, or instinctual. But that in no way condones the behavior. It is naturally to want to have sex, but that doesn't mean you should act upon these desires every chance you get... |
Boy...Isn't it a good thing that we don't have to live according to what you think ...Well even if you and the rest of humanity thinks people are "born that way"...that is why the WOG say: WE ALL MUST BE BORN AGAIN!...soooo with your understanding...is it ok for a person the "think" homo...but not "Do" homo?
Don't you know that as a man thinketh ...so is he? |
So you think it's a good thing to live according to what Moses thought? That by being a God and judging others and teaching others to throw stones and taking revenge on those who don't abide by his laws and avenging those who do by killing anyone and anything that is contrary to himself, that this is the image and likeness that God created us in?
Don't you know that as a man thinketh...so he is?
look at the history... 
give us this day our daily bread...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
May you find Peace..
lone |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:52 am Post subject: |
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Not at all. I'm simply understanding what Paul really meant, and who he was writing about.
I don't deny Paul's authority under Christ. But you are taking something he said about a certain group of people and broadening it to include everyone.
What? and the NT is relegated to whom?...in YOUR understanding? |
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StElsewhere
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| Posted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 1:58 am Post subject: |
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Boy...Isn't it a good thing that we don't have to live according to what you think ...Well even if you and the rest of humanity thinks people are "born that way"...that is why the WOG say: WE ALL MUST BE BORN AGAIN!...soooo with your understanding...is it ok for a person the "think" homo...but not "Do" homo?
Don't you know that as a man thinketh ...so is he?[/b] [/quote]
So you think it's a good thing to live according to what Moses thought? That by being a God and judging others and teaching others to throw stones and taking revenge on those who don't abide by his laws and avenging those who do by killing anyone and anything that is contrary to himself, that this is the image and likeness that God created us in?
Look...I've not advocated the killing of anyone...please address my point...and don't side step it...Is it true or not true that no matter what we all were born into ...or think we were born into...that WE ALL must be born again? YES or NO?
Don't you know that as a man thinketh...so he is?
Amen and amen again!
give us this day our daily bread...and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.
May you find Peace..
lone
Now what trespass have I done you? Do tell! |
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