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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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 Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:04 pm Post subject: Full Preterism Explained |
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So Zatharus, I thought I would get the ball rolling on this discussion and begin with my understanding of full preterism.
As I understand it, full preterism is the belief that all (or most) prophecy in the book of Revlation was fulfilled at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Am I correct in this understanding? And if so does FP allow for a literal future bodily coming of Jesus?
I look forward to your response. |
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Mon Sep 24, 2007 11:10 pm Post subject: |
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| admins could you move this post to revelation and end times, that's where I meant to post it, but I got lost. The internets is just a series of jumbled tubes, so this happens to me a lot. thanks |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:49 am Post subject: Re: Full Preterism Explained |
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| Schuckdaddy wrote: | | As I understand it, full preterism is the belief that all (or most) prophecy in the book of Revlation was fulfilled at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Am I correct in this understanding? |
Full preterism is the belief that all - not most - all prophecy was fullfilled by events that happened in or by 70AD.
The belief that most or some prophecy was fulfilled in 70AD is partial preterism. Actually, most scholars acknowlege that at least some of the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled by Jerusalem's fall in 70AD, so I guess just about everyone's a partial preterist to some extent!
What's imporant to keep in view, even moreso than the when, is the why. The reason I believe Bible prophecy to be fulfilled is because it all has to do with the passing of the old covenant and the establishement of the new covenant. All Christian will agree that that has been accomplished, even the ones trying to perpetuate parts of the old covenant into our day.  That's why rather than full preterism, I actually prefer the term covenant eschatology. That explains that my eschatology is based in the transition from the old to the new covenant through the redemptive work of Christ, not a destruction of our physical planet or creation of a new one.
| Schuckdaddy wrote: | | And if so does FP allow for a literal future bodily coming of Jesus? |
FP, by definition, acknowleges that any prophecies of the coming of Christ are fulfilled. Obviously, not the way premillenialists await their fulfillment.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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45degreeN
King Kong
Joined: 02 Aug 2005
Posts: 2556
Location: Salem Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 6:47 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | FP, by definition, acknowledges that any prophecies of the coming of Christ are fulfilled. Obviously, not the way premillenialists await their fulfillment. |
This is mostly why we premillenialist prefer our own way of looking at things rather than "as already fulfilled". Full Preterism to me at least leads to a great disappointment, I ask is this all there is my friend? What hope remains?
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:17 pm Post subject: |
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What is the goal for the church in post 70AD times, to spread the new covenant?
Are we waiting for anything to happen? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 9:24 pm Post subject: |
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HA,
maybe it's the waiting that's the problem..LOL..
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:27 am Post subject: |
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| Schuckdaddy wrote: | What is the goal for the church in post 70AD times, to spread the new covenant?
Are we waiting for anything to happen? |
Y'know, that was my first question when I realized this. It might be something we each have to figure out individually.
For me, it means being who God made me and doing what He put me here to do to the fullest of my potential. I was amazed at how the expectation of a future coming of Christ and a future judgement affected my whole view of life, and Christianity's view of life.
I'm a musician. Now, rather than use my talent to try to warn people and rescue them from coming wrath, I can use it to simply worship, to express my love for the Lord, and to simply be something beautiful that I can bring into this world, that I received from God.
At one point, 6 years ago, I had a discussion with the pastor of the church I was then attending and the subject of my belief in fulfilled eschatology came up. He said if I didn't believe in a future judgment, then what was the point of my being there? You see, their focus was evangelism - reaching the lost - as is true with many churches. But he didn't see the point of sharing Jesus simply so people could have relationship with God. When it really came down to it, the only point of evangelism in his view was saving people from a future judgmenet. Fire insurance. Don't preachers often preach against just coming to Christ for fire insurance? Yet I don't think this pastor was an exception. I think many futurist Christians, if they really think about it, must admit they view their Christianity as their ark rescuing them from a judgement soon to come, not as their promised land where they can dwell safely. So I was told that if my belief were true, that I was in effect saying that the whole vision of their church was unnecessary, misguided, based on a false premise. I thought to myself "I thought Jesus was the foundation of our faith. The gospel message. The cross and the empty tomb. Not a coming judgment. Not the threat of hellfire."
I don't know about the church, but my goal is to simply walk with Jesus and fellowship with my Father. And do life with Him alongside me. The church has entered its promised land. The greatest thing that we could wait for to happen has already happened - we have been made righteous and worthy to dwell in the presence of God, not by our own good works, but by the redemptive work of Christ.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Officially approved in 451 |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 5:36 am Post subject: |
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Thankyou Zathrus,
That was great! 
lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Schuckdaddy
Alley Cat
Joined: 23 May 2007
Posts: 188
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:38 am Post subject: |
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| Ok, that was a reasonable response. help me with some of the events that I still think could be future, where does FP see the millennial reign, are we in that now or past that? Are we currently dwelling in the new heaven new earth and new Jerusalem? What happens to us when we die, do we go to hades (the OT waiting place) or some version of heaven/lake of fire? |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:54 am Post subject: |
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R.I.P....
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:39 am Post subject: |
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| Schuckdaddy wrote: | | ...where does FP see the millennial reign, are we in that now or past that? |
Most preachers of full preterism view the passage in Rev 20 that mentions a 1000 year reign as referring to the period between the birth of the early church, and the passing away of what remained of the old covenant in 70AD. Literally about 40 years, I know.
It's a topic of much discussion among preterists, not surprisingly because Rev 20 is a very difficult (IMO perhaps the most difficult) chapter in the Bible to understand. A lot of it is not understood.
I have not formed a concrete opinion. IMO, the description of reigning wth Christ sounds more like God's everlasting kingdom, not a transitory period. Parts of that passage in REv 20 were obviously quoted from or making allusion to Daniel 7. Daniel 7 talks about the saints being given the kingdom and reigning, but it says they do so for ever, without end. It's worth noting that everywhere else that the kingdom of God is mentioned in the Bible, including other passages in REv, it is said to be everlasting, without end. The obvious allusion to Daniel 7 in Rev 20, yet the mention of the 1000 "expiring" is puzzling.
The war that REv 20 says occurs at the end of that 1000 year reign, with Satan re-loosed upon the earth is puzzling too. If that can be identified, then the 1000 year reign can probably more easily be identified as well.
I'm making a little headway on this, but it's not fast going.
You can read some of my own thoughts on the 1000 years, Rev 20, and the new heaven and new earth in threads on this very forum. I have one called "Rev 20: The Hardest Chapter in the Bible to Understand?", another called Isaiah 65 and the New Heaven and New Earth", and a recent one about Rev 20 and Rev 17. Looking at Rev 17 actually shed some new light on Rev 20, because it started to become clear to me tha tthe two chapters are describing the same sequence of events.
| Schuckdaddy wrote: | | Are we currently dwelling in the new heaven new earth and new Jerusalem? |
Ahh.. I do like it much better when you keep those questions easy!! The new Jerusalem is plainly identified in Rev 21 as being the bride of Christ. I have a thread on that in the forum on this board dedicated to the book of Revelation. It plainly says that the angel was showing John "the bride, the Lamb's wife" when he was shown the city.
As for the new heaven and new earth, look at my thread in this forum titled "Isaiah 65 and the New Heaven and New Earth." The key to understanding both Peter's and John's references to these is to go back to Isaiah 65 and ask what Isaiah was actually writing about. Isaiah was writing about the time to come when God would punish disobedient and unbelieving national Israel, and make it clear (reveal) who His true chosen people were - a new chosen people, called by a different name. I think you can tell I'm talking about something that was fulfilled through the redemptive work of Christ and the preaching of the gospel.
| Schuckdaddy wrote: | | What happens to us when we die,...? |
I believe we go (actually remain is a better word- our spirits are already there) in the spiritual realm and are with the Lord forever.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451
Last edited by Zathrus on Thu Sep 27, 2007 9:25 am; edited 1 time in total |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:55 am Post subject: |
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you think maybe when Satan is allowed back on the earth it's when the old covenant is set back up?
thinkin...
Lone
You remember there was a long time when Israel had no king, no priest, and no law?...and then we see it emerging in the NT in Jerusalem? Sitting in Moses seat?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3024
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Full Preterism Explained |
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Interesting how a false theory can be 'fully' explained, is it not ?
Especially the part about Christ's 2nd coming, in which all the righteous are taken to heaven, and all the UNsaved will be destroyed, at Christ's 2nd coming......
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 11:10 am Post subject: |
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Yes, brother Surfer, it is interesting how covenant eschatology most fully explains the prophetic texts of the Bible. I've found it offers many more and far more believeable explanations than amillenialism, postmillenialism and especially premillenialism, which your Adventist eschatology is a variant of. It reveals the plan of salvation as a cohesive whole, accomplished and completed as God promised, rather than a story of redemption through Christ's death and resurrection, and then a pretty much unrelated timeline of tribulation and the destruction of this planet, with the latter really only relating to the former by the fact that those saved according to the former are taken out of the world.
It reveals the purpose of God's plan of salvation as making it possible to fellowship with man in the way it was when man was created, minus the presence of any "serpent" or tree of knowlege of good and evil to ever bring sin back. It reveals His plan as making man righteous and restoring fellowship, not taking some future generation of righteous away from our planet to a new home in some utopian Puritan's paradise.
It is an excellent passage of scripture you've quoted. The reference to Noah and the flood reveals a lot about the Bible's teaching on eschatology. While I don't expect you to consider the following points, I list them for the benefit of others who may read and be blessed.
| Quote: | Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. |
1.) Looking carefully at the way Jesus worded His statement here, who was taken away in the flood? Jesus is referring to those who were eating, drinking, marrying, and "knew not". It is they who were taken away! This is not a prophecy of the righteous being "raptured" away. It is a prophecy of the destruction of the wicked.
Don't believe it? In the parable of the wheat and the tares, which are gathered first? Jesus plainly states that this parable is about the "end of the world" (age). He plainly states that the reapers are the angels. Which do the angels gather up first?
Then consider what the entire chapter Matthew 24 is about. See the first three verses of the chapter.
2.) When God saved Noah from the flood, was it not the same act that judged the wicked that brought deliverance to the righteous? How is it that pre-trib premills/dispensationalists teach that the righteous will be raptured away and not even present when the judgement of God is poured out? How is it that Adventists teach that though the righteous will be here through a tribulation, to be tested and scourged, when the wicked are actually destroyed, the righteous will be gone and our planet will be burnt to a crisp? The Bible teaches over and over that it is through the very judgement of God that the righteous are vindicated and delivered.
3.) When God judged the world in the flood, saving Noah and his family, did He destroy the planet? We still live on that same planet today, don't we? If the coming of the Son of Man is like the days of Noah, how is it that many teach that our literal planet will be destroyed?
4.) When God saved Noah and his family, did He remove them from our planet? Was the world that they inherited some new planet, or a "heaven" existing outside our universe? It was this planet, minus the wicked, was it not? If the coming of Jesus is like the days of Noah, how is it that many teach that the righteous will be literally taken off this planet?
Brother Surfer, I do not expect a scholarly response from you on these points, just a recitation of the same Adventist doctrines with the usual flimsy, out of context scriptural support. However I will not be disappointed if you pleasantly surprise me. But as I said, I present these things for the benefit of all.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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Silver Surfer
Emperor of the World
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 3024
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 21, 2007 12:00 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
Don't believe it? In the parable of the wheat and the tares, which are gathered first? |
As in Noah's time, the UNsaved were destroyed at the vey moment the Righteous were being saved from derstruction....so shall it be, in the time of Christ's return.
BUT, this is NOT the total, absolute, destruction produced by HellFire, which comes later, after the 1000 Years.
The UNsaved will be destroyed by the 'brightness of Christ's coming'.....2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him.........
2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
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Jesus plainly states that this parable is about the "end of the world" (age). He plainly states that the reapers are the angels. Which do the angels gather up first ? |
So, does that thought destroy the other Bible verses quoted ?
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Then consider what the entire chapter Matthew 24 is about. See the first three verses of the chapter.
2.) When God saved Noah from the flood, was it not the same act that judged the wicked that brought deliverance to the righteous? |
Yes to obey is to live......disobey, and die.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
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How is it that pre-trib premills/dispensationalists teach that the righteous will be raptured away and not even present when the judgement of God is poured out? |
Maybe it is because they don't understand what the Bible says, about God's 'Investigative' Judgment.
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How is it that Adventists teach that though the righteous will be here through a tribulation, to be tested and scourged, |
The Mark of the Beast scenerio is the time for true Christians, to witness for the truths found in the Bible....regarding God's commandments, being the basis of worship.
The Laws of the Land inspired by satan, will be in opposition to the Laws of God.....
So closely will the counterfeit resemble the true that it will be impossible to distinguish between them except by the Holy Scriptures.
By their testimony every statement and every miracle must be tested.
Those who endeavor to obey all the commandments of God will be opposed and derided.
They can stand only in God.
In order to endure the trial before them, they must understand the will of God as revealed in His word; they can honor Him only as they have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them. None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict.
To every soul will come the searching test: Shall I obey God rather than men?
The decisive hour is even now at hand. Are our feet planted on the rock of God's immutable word?
Are we prepared to stand firm in defense of the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus ?
{GC 593.2}
(Great Controversy, by White)
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when the wicked are actually destroyed, the righteous will be gone and our planet will be burnt to a crisp? |
Did you forget the 1000 years, where the earth is at rest, before the earth becomes a Lake of Fire ?
(Revelation 20)
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The Bible teaches over and over that it is through the very judgement of God that the righteous are vindicated and delivered. |
Yes, and who are the Righteous ?
Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here [are] they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
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3.) When God judged the world in the flood, saving Noah and his family, did He destroy the planet? |
Not at that time, because it is the pit where satan must spend 1000 years alone, with the results of his rebellion against God.
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We still live on that same planet today, don't we? If the coming of the Son of Man is like the days of Noah, how is it that many teach that our literal planet will be destroyed? |
Maybe it is because the Bible says so ?
2 Peter 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
| Quote: | | 4.) When God saved Noah and his family, did He remove them from our planet? |
How else could the Lord Jesus Christ have been born, died on the cross, ec...ect.....have been fulfilled, as prophecy said it would ?
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Was the world that they inherited some new planet, or a "heaven" existing outside our universe? |
No, God had to confine sin to this planet alone, instead of letting it spread throughout the universe.
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It was this planet, minus the wicked, was it not? If the coming of Jesus is like the days of Noah, how is it that many teach that the righteous will be literally taken off this planet? |
Maybe they read other Bible verse which says so ?
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Brother Surfer, I do not expect a scholarly response from you on these points, just a recitation of the same Adventist doctrines with the usual flimsy, out of context scriptural support. |
I'm sorry you cant't find any Bible verses which suits you.
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However I will not be disappointed if you pleasantly surprise me. But as I said, I present these things for the benefit of all. |
Yes, both the true and false must be presented, so people can make their choice, for God, or aganist God.
Those who disobey God, WILL NOT be allowed into heaven.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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