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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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 Posted: Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:36 am Post subject: What form after the resurrection? |
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I saw this being brought up in another thread. So as to not hijack that thread any more than it has been, I ask what others believe was Yeshua's "form" after his resurrection. From what I can gather:
Luk 24:39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Therefore, he was flesh and bones upon his resurrection according to scripture.
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Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:50 am Post subject: |
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It's illogical that Jesus would descend from a spiritual form, become flesh but then return as flesh, and then pour out his flesh upon flesh.
Jesus was different when he met with mary outside the tomb. At first she thought he was the gardener. Jesus asked Mary not to touch him. ( I'm saying that it's becasue he was in a different form and made visible for her eys and those who saw the resurrected Master)
15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
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Mortal flesh cannot vanish and appear again:
30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
Again, Jesus just "appears".
36And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
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Flesh and bones don't walk through locked doors.
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
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26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" 27Then he said to Thomas, "Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe."
28Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!"
29Then Jesus told him, "Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."
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12Afterward Jesus appeared in a different form to two of them while they were walking in the country. 13These returned and reported it to the rest; but they did not believe them either.
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:54 pm Post subject: Re: What form after the resurrection? |
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Hi Ke  | kejonn wrote: | I saw this being brought up in another thread. So as to not hijack that thread any more than it has been, I ask what others believe was Yeshua's "form" after his resurrection. From what I can gather:
Luk 24:39 "See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."
Therefore, he was flesh and bones upon his resurrection according to scripture. |
Yes, bit difficult to read any other way.
The road to Emmaus non-recognition was probably miraculous "holding" of their eyes. Although a walk in twilight with someone wearing a hood who you are sure is dead may not require a miraculous explanation. I offer that only as food for thinking.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:35 am Post subject: |
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Hmmm, now let us throw this monkey wrench into the works. What does this say about what Yeshua's "form" is
1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
_________________
Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:42 am Post subject: |
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| kejonn wrote: | Hmmm, now let us throw this monkey wrench into the works. What does this say about what Yeshua's "form" is
1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. |
Somehow when I quote the bible it is not valid.
Here is some more stuff to ignore from the same page:
1 Corinthians 15
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Colter wrote: | | kejonn wrote: | Hmmm, now let us throw this monkey wrench into the works. What does this say about what Yeshua's "form" is
1Cr 15:50 Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. |
Somehow when I quote the bible it is not valid.
Here is some more stuff to ignore from the same page:
1 Corinthians 15
35But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
Colter |
Well, to be honest Colter, your verses did not show he was in another form per se, but that he was able to do things that bodies should not be able to do. How many mortal bodies do you know that walked on water? He did that before his resurrection so to say that he could do things in post resurrection form did not really prove that this form was ethereal or spirit, certainly in light of the verse from Luke I started this thread with.
However, the next verse I quoted says quite a bit, because we know that Yeshua is in heaven, and he has inherited all from his Father. That would include inheriting heaven (IMO). So how can he truly be flesh and blood now and still agree with what Paul wrote. But to be truthful, I never even thought about this verse until this morning while listening to a radio broadcast where the speaker quoted the verse.
Hey, what do you think it means by "the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another"?
_________________
Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:27 pm Post subject: |
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Celestial bodies are like the celestial bodies that celestial beings have. We cannot see them but apparently at times they have made themselves visible by some technique. Gabriel to Mary, for instance. Must have scared the heck out of her. There are many other instances in the Biblical stories where such things occurred.
In the transfiguration Jesus was transfigured to another form of some sort. The celestial beings, then present, were also made visible. This event scares people and disrupts doctrine so people just make the whole episode go away by calling it a vision......btw, Ever woneder how the two apostles knew who the figures were in their so called "vision"? Did they have name tags on or something? Did Jesus tell them, errrrm, the two beings that you are seeing in your "vision" are Mosses and Elijah? No, he just told them not to tell anyone what they saw until after he left. They assumed!
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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kejonn
Show Poodle
Joined: 21 Jul 2007
Posts: 251
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:03 pm Post subject: |
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BTW Colter, you know you have an uphill battle getting most on here to pay attention to what you say. We never know when you'll spring an idea from the UB on us. We're all just a bunch of Bible thumpers on here, not many UB thumpers 'cept yourself.
Thump on!
_________________
Yasna 30.9 - So may we be like those making the world progress toward perfection; May God and the Divine Spirits help us and guide our efforts through Truth; For a thinking man is where Wisdom is at home. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| kejonn wrote: | BTW Colter, you know you have an uphill battle getting most on here to pay attention to what you say. We never know when you'll spring an idea from the UB on us. We're all just a bunch of Bible thumpers on here, not many UB thumpers 'cept yourself.
Thump on! |
I know that Kejohnn, Jesus basically told the boys, If they don't like me they really aint gonna like you. In fact, he told them that they would also be rejected and killed for their freaky new age message.
People typically take me for some gullible fool on the net who got caught up in a cult. I was on one Christadelphian web site where one of the mods broke into my public profile and changed my faith declaration form Jesussonion to "Cult of Urantia".
I have to remember that it's not my message, "the river bed is not the river".
"Primitive man lived a life of superstitious bondage to religious fear. Modern, civilized men dread the thought of falling under the dominance of strong religious convictions. Thinking man has always feared to be held by a religion. When a strong and moving religion threatens to dominate him, he invariably tries to rationalize, traditionalize, and institutionalize it, thereby hoping to gain control of it. By such procedure, even a revealed religion becomes man-made and man-dominated. Modern men and women of intelligence evade the religion of Jesus because of their fears of what it will do to them--and with them. And all such fears are well founded. The religion of Jesus does, indeed, dominate and transform its believers, demanding that men dedicate their lives to seeking for a knowledge of the will of the Father in heaven and requiring that the energies of living be consecrated to the unselfish service of the brotherhood of man."
"Christianity has indeed done a great service for this world, but what is now most needed is Jesus. The world needs to see Jesus living again on earth in the experience of spirit-born mortals who effectively reveal the Master to all men. It is futile to talk about a revival of primitive Christianity; you must go forward from where you find yourselves. Modern culture must become spiritually baptized with a new revelation of Jesus' life and illuminated with a new understanding of his gospel of eternal salvation. And when Jesus becomes thus lifted up, he will draw all men to himself. Jesus' disciples should be more than conquerors, even overflowing sources of inspiration and enhanced living to all men. Religion is only an exalted humanism until it is made divine by the discovery of the reality of the presence of God in personal experience." UB 55
Anyhow, one last thought on the "form" of Jesus. Seconds before his physical body expired Jesus said, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit", not "body".
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 5:28 pm Post subject: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | | "Father into your hands I commit my spirit", not "body". |
How many 'spirits' does this trinitarian god have?
If Jesus 'gave up his spirit' and handed it back to his God, then at his death he himself had no spirit?
A dead god with no spirit. hmm?
Cheers! |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject: |
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what form after the ressurection?
Perfection!
Because we will no longer see any more flaws in anyone!
God Bless
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:28 am Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| composer2005 wrote: | | Colter wrote: | | "Father into your hands I commit my spirit", not "body". |
How many 'spirits' does this trinitarian god have?
If Jesus 'gave up his spirit' and handed it back to his God, then at his death he himself had no spirit?
A dead god with no spirit. hmm?
Cheers! |
Composer,
Our creator brother lived out the full life of the human experience for our benefit, even through a torturous death at the hands of cowardly religious fanatics. His statement, "Father into your hands I commit my spirit," was the last in the life long drama of unbroken faith/trust in the Fathers will. He had faith/trust in the Father preincarnate and he still has faith/trust in him now as unquestioned sovereign.
God is spirit
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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composer2005
Fierce Wolf
Joined: 14 Jul 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: trinity discussion |
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| Colter wrote: | Composer,
God is spirit |
As God is indeed Spirit and you claim Jesus is coequal to God and therefore is Spirit, then as such Jesus i.e. your Spirit God can't relinquish what you claim he is i.e. Spirit.
In other words, spirit can't stop being spirit.
| Colter wrote: | | Our creator brother lived out the full life of the human experience for our benefit, . . . |
. . . God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things (1 John 3:20) KJV
As you claim your Jesus is God then he would have 'inherently known all things' but you say he didn't know what it was like to be human and had to become his own creation to find out?
Your hypothesis disagrees with 1 John 3:20 KJV and your Christ / coequal God, is not 'all knowing' but God is.
Cheers! |
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Colter
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 409
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | As God is indeed Spirit and you claim Jesus is coequal to God and therefore is Spirit, then as such Jesus i.e. your Spirit God can't relinquish what you claim he is i.e. Spirit.
In other words, spirit can't stop being spirit. |
Hi Composer,
I will again repeat what I have so plainly said consistently and numerous times, Jesus is NOT the Father, he is a Son of the Father. While he is at one with the Father he repeatedly reffered to HIS FATHER as a separate personality while he also spoke of his own person as be the existential personiofication of the Father. The Father is the God of Gods, Lord of Lords though they are all unified with the Father.
| Quote: | . . . God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things (1 John 3:20) KJV
As you claim your Jesus is God then he would have 'inherently known all things' but you say he didn't know what it was like to be human and had to become his own creation to find out?
Your hypothesis disagrees with 1 John 3:20 KJV and your Christ / coequal God, is not 'all knowing' but God is. |
Good point Composer!
Man is created in imperfection, he is finite and expected to strive for perfection. The creator son was created in perfection and expected to produce fruit with finite man, expected to lead all men to the Father infinite.
......."To live such identical lives as he imposes upon the intelligent beings of his own creation, thus to bestow himself in the likeness of his various orders of created beings, is a part of the price which every Creator Son must pay for the full and supreme sovereignty of his self-made universe of things and beings." UB
In my crude and finite mind I could say that being born into perfection is like being born into power and wealth with all that comes with it, the best education, the best health care, intelligence and the like. Being poor and handicapped by dark influences in life, how could one such as that identify with me and my problems? God has never been born into an impoverished and broken world.......or Has he?
God not only suffers with me, he has suffered like me and triumphed over the flesh. He shows me the way by the experience of having done it himself. His life in the flesh revealed the Father to mankind. His love for us in unmatched.
Colter
_________________
Micah denounced "the rulers who judge for reward and the priests who teach for hire and the prophets who divine for money." He taught of a day of freedom from superstition and priestcraft, saying: "But every man shall sit under his own vine, and no one shall make him afraid, for all people will live, each one according to his understanding of God." |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6360
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:39 am Post subject: |
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Jesus is the spirit of prophecy...
do you suppose when Jesus vanishes from their sight that these are the times when God is quiet in the OT?
just thinkin...
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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