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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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 Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 10:55 am Post subject: School Project Help |
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I'm posting this message to this forum as part of a class project. I'm am interested in some of your thoughts concerning what the constitution has to say about religion and the government; specifically what it has to say about schools.
Would it be wrong for a teacher to stand up in front of his or her class and state, unequivocally that they are a Christian and that they believe that God created the universe and all that is in it.
Thanks in advance. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5880
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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| According to the interpretation of the first amendment set by precedent in the United States judicial system doing so would be, in effect, establishing religion. Given that this is in a public school (otherwise this is irrelevant) this is a violation of separation of church and state. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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I suppose if the teacher prefaces that statement with something like "just a heads up, folks" and follows it up with a comment that he will try hard not to let his bias affect the way he presents the material, then it might be okay?
The trouble is that the teacher is in a position of authority, so if he doesn't make any sort of disclaimers, that comment by itself could be mistaken as teaching, and on the face of it, he is advocating a particular religion (a constitutional no-no).
That's my take on it, anyways.
As for whether he ought to say it, I don't believe he should - what do his religious beliefs have to do with anything he's teaching?
This reminds me of a poli-sci course I took, where the professor refused to say what his own political views were because it would interfere with his ability to present the course material in a neutral way and therefore be unprofessional. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:06 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | According to the interpretation of the first amendment set by precedent in the United States judicial system doing so would be, in effect, establishing religion. Given that this is in a public school (otherwise this is irrelevant) this is a violation of separation of church and state. |
The interpretation of the 1st Amendment... perhaps. The 1st Amendment states:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;..."
If the Amendment states that "congress should make no law respecting an establishment" how does that prohibit a teacher from making that statement... especially if the teacher is utilizing the second portion of the amendment which 'prohibits the free exercise thereof'?
I'm not following how we went from A to B on this. I appreciate your answer FFT but follow how this amendment can be interpreted this way. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | The trouble is that the teacher is in a position of authority, so if he doesn't make any sort of disclaimers, that comment by itself could be mistaken as teaching, and on the face of it, he is advocating a particular religion (a constitutional no-no). |
"Could be"? By who? That sounds ridiculous and the majority of people in our country recognize that. This is a slippery slope the ACLU has paved for us. It is the slope that assumes people are too stupid to recognize the difference. It demands that everyone be as stupid as they think we are in order to swallow their drivel.
| Quote: | | As for whether he ought to say it, I don't believe he should - what do his religious beliefs have to do with anything he's teaching? |
Maybe he is teaching a personal responsibility class or a respecting others class and wants everyone to know that he bases he morality for the treatment of others on the Judeo-Christian ethic of "love thy neighbor as thy self" as opposed to 'well... you ought to treat each other nice because its the law'. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | The trouble is that the teacher is in a position of authority, so if he doesn't make any sort of disclaimers, that comment by itself could be mistaken as teaching, and on the face of it, he is advocating a particular religion (a constitutional no-no). |
"Could be"? By who? |
Hmm, who on Earth might I have meant? Let's see now... oh yeah, students. It depends on how old they are, of course - how far along their development they are. During a certain stage of a child's development, if an adult in a position of authority over the child, particularly one who is responsible for giving her the right answers to various things, says "my religion is 'x'," it is entirely reasonable for the child to interpret that as "the right answer to 'which religion?' is 'x'.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | That sounds ridiculous and the majority of people in our country recognize that. This is a slippery slope the ACLU has paved for us. It is the slope that assumes people are too stupid to recognize the difference. It demands that everyone be as stupid as they think we are in order to swallow their drivel. |
People of certain ages can't discern the difference, though. You never pinpointed where along their development these students might be, but now you seem to be asserting that they are in fact reasonable adults at the peak of their cognitive development, in which case, you might have a point. In fact, if I were in a university course right now, and a prof told my class that he had a particular bias in his thinking, I would be grateful because I would have an edge over how he thinks and I could use it to my advantage, to be sure. However, if he were a grade two teacher, and my child came home and told me her teacher told her that, I'd be pretty angry that this teacher was trying (or maybe too ignorant to realize what he was doing - hard to say) to persuade my child into swallowing his beliefs.
How would it be if some teacher told your kids he was an atheist and didn't believe that any god has done anything, ever? Would it be all right in your mind if he did so? Let's hear your thoughts on the matter (as if I don't already know what they'd be).
| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | As for whether he ought to say it, I don't believe he should - what do his religious beliefs have to do with anything he's teaching? |
Maybe he is teaching a personal responsibility class or a respecting others class and wants everyone to know that he bases he morality for the treatment of others on the Judeo-Christian ethic of "love thy neighbor as thy self" as opposed to 'well... you ought to treat each other nice because its the law'. |
Yes, because that's what all non-Christians think. I think I heard a Buddhist laugh just now. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:33 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | The trouble is that the teacher is in a position of authority, so if he doesn't make any sort of disclaimers, that comment by itself could be mistaken as teaching, and on the face of it, he is advocating a particular religion (a constitutional no-no). |
"Could be"? By who? |
Hmm, who on Earth might I have meant? Let's see now... oh yeah, students. |
I think your reply pretty much demonstrated my point. Since there 'might' be a few people that may conclude this.. which would readily be fixed by asking a few additional questions... it is a one size fits all mentality... they all must suffer now... dare not mention their religious preference for fear of someone with deficient intellectual abilities to differentiate between what is an official endorsement and is not... Sorry Ana, I can't buy that. Why should I, as a teacher beforced to hide deeply held convictions simply because they are religous in nature when it is permisable for me to state that our President is an idiot? Are both not endorsements of sorts?
I thought schools were places to learn, not cut off debate of any type. Is this still not true?
| Quote: | | How would it be if some teacher told your kids he was an atheist and didn't believe that any god has done anything, ever? |
You mean... like what the only default position of teachers are charged to do right now? That position?
| Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | As for whether he ought to say it, I don't believe he should - what do his religious beliefs have to do with anything he's teaching? |
Maybe he is teaching a personal responsibility class or a respecting others class and wants everyone to know that he bases he morality for the treatment of others on the Judeo-Christian ethic of "love thy neighbor as thy self" as opposed to 'well... you ought to treat each other nice because its the law'. |
Yes, because that's what all non-Christians think. I think I heard a Buddhist laugh just now. |
Hmmm... you asked a question, I gave you a practical application, and you still think that there are no places where a teacher should be allowed to declare this... still not sure how you work that out... care to explain?
Last edited by Trinity1 on Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:14 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5880
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | If the Amendment states that "congress should make no law respecting an establishment" how does that prohibit a teacher from making that statement... especially if the teacher is utilizing the second portion of the amendment which 'prohibits the free exercise thereof'? |
Because that's how our judicial system has interpreted it. And that's the judicial system's job.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | I'm not following how we went from A to B on this. |
It's not "establishment" as in a place, it's "establishment" as in establishing something. Our judicial system interpreted the letter of the law, so to speak, to make the restriction apply equally to establishments even when not the result of laws. So no, it's against the first amendment for a public school teacher to state their beliefs in such a manner. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: | | If the Amendment states that "congress should make no law respecting an establishment" how does that prohibit a teacher from making that statement... especially if the teacher is utilizing the second portion of the amendment which 'prohibits the free exercise thereof'? |
Because that's how our judicial system has interpreted it. And that's the judicial system's job. |
You are absolutely correct FFT. It is the responsibility of the Judiciary to do this. In your estimation, were they correct and if so, how in your estimation? |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
"Could be"? By who? |
Hmm, who on Earth might I have meant? Let's see now... oh yeah, students. |
I think your reply pretty much demonstrated my point. Since there 'might' be a few people that may conclude this.. which would readily be fixed by asking a few questions... it is a one size fits all mentality... they all must suffer now... dare not mention their religious preference for fear of someone with deficient intellectual abilities to differentiate between what is an official endorsement and is not...
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Again - what age group are you referring to, Trinity? I've already explained about cognitive development regarding believing what adults in a position of authority (particularly regarding education) say - to re-label children as "someone with deficient intellectual abilities" rather misrepresents what I said. It's not as though a small minority of children are going to react this way, and even if it were, even a small group of such people would be enough to make teachers have to think before they speak.
Also, you said "they all must suffer now" - who is the "they" in your sentence and how are they "suffering"? Is it really "suffering" to keep your mouth shut about your religion? If this teacher is suffering for not "stand[ing] up in front of his or her class and stat[ing], unequivocally that they are a Christian and that they believe that God created the universe and all that is in it", then it must be a big deal, in which case it's advocating his religion and should not be said. If it's no big deal, then it should be equally not a big deal to refrain from mentioning such.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
I thought schools were places to learn, not cut off debate of any type? Oh yeah.. only if that debate deals with Christianity… the sick perverted practices of homosexuals… well.. that’s protected speech… but we must dare not declare ‘love thy neighbor’ as that is scripture, a tacit endorsement of religion… etc… |
Debate? It really depends on how the debate is handled, and whether your students are old enough to even understand or be capable of debating. Also, quit throwing in rhetoric about Christians being persecuted, because they aren't, and even if it were true, it would still be irrelevant to the topic.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | How would it be if some teacher told your kids he was an atheist and didn't believe that any god has done anything, ever? Would it be all right in your mind if he did so? Let's hear your thoughts on the matter (as if I don't already know what they'd be). |
You mean... like what the only default position of teacher is right now? That position? |
No, the default position is to keep your mouth shut about your religious beliefs, or lack thereof.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | How would I feel if a teacher told my kids this... well... lets see... oh yeah... my son... 11th grade science.... "science has demonstrated that the Bible is incorrect and should not be taken as literal truth"... that one? |
I'd be willing to bet that this science teacher you speak of said more than just that. I can tell that paraphrase is out of context, so I really can't comment on it.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
You know the worse part of it Ana... the school board didn't lift a finger as it was within the law of what he could and could not say. |
This is telling. It lends support to what I said above. Whatever the teacher really said couldn't have been that bad and couldn't have been endorsing religion.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Ana wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | As for whether he ought to say it, I don't believe he should - what do his religious beliefs have to do with anything he's teaching? |
Maybe he is teaching a personal responsibility class or a respecting others class and wants everyone to know that he bases he morality for the treatment of others on the Judeo-Christian ethic of "love thy neighbor as thy self" as opposed to 'well... you ought to treat each other nice because its the law'. |
Yes, because that's what all non-Christians think. I think I heard a Buddhist laugh just now. |
Hmmm... you asked a question, I gave you a practical application, and you still think that there are no places where a teacher should be allowed to declare this... still not sure how you work that out... care to explain? |
You phrased that as though I've made some sort of contradiction, which I haven't done. You can teach a personal responsibility class without touting your religious beliefs, so your example fails. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3111
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:21 pm Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
Again - what age group are you referring to, Trinity? I've already explained about cognitive development regarding believing what adults in a position of authority (particularly regarding education) say - to re-label children as "someone with deficient intellectual abilities" rather misrepresents what I said. |
Lets say 8th grade... does that help? By the age of 14 they are, or at least should be, able to discern right from wrong, have grown out of this ego-centric world they had lived in, etc...
| Quote: | | Also, you said "they all must suffer now" - who is the "they" in your sentence and how are they "suffering"? Is it really "suffering" to keep your mouth shut about your religion? |
No... not at all. It is my contention that your blanket prohibition is a draconian measure that prohibits teachers from expressing some of their core beliefs.
| Quote: | | Debate? It really depends on how the debate is handled, and whether your students are old enough to even understand or be capable of debating. |
How it is handled? You mean if one side is not able to express themselves that makes the debate fair and balanced as long it is the Christian who is silenced...
I think it is the very absence of opposition that has created many of the problems facing our school systems today... and many of those problems stem specifically from the silencing of opposition for fear of repercussions...
| Quote: | | You phrased that as though I've made some sort of contradiction, which I haven't done. You can teach a personal responsibility class without touting your religious beliefs, so your example fails. |
My point is... and you are right, you can teach this class without expressing the basis for your beleifs... however, it should not be prohibited because some pointy head has somehow decided that by doing so is somehow equivalent to 'making a law respecting a religion'. The basis for this argument is what the 1st Amendment has to say about religion and its endorsement.
The Amendment deals with the action of congress... not the states... and not the schools. Up until 1832 (or there abouts) there were a few states that did have an official religion, codified, into law. I believe that is indeed unconstitutional. However, a teacher telling his or her class that they are a Christian, believe God created everything, and that the Christian ethic of 'loving thy neighbor' is the basis for their treatment of others should not be prohibited. Nor is it profited by the constitution. That is what my point was. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 8:14 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | Debate? It really depends on how the debate is handled, and whether your students are old enough to even understand or be capable of debating. |
How it is handled? You mean if one side is not able to express themselves that makes the debate fair and balanced as long it is the Christian who is silenced...
I think it is the very absence of opposition that has created many of the problems facing our school systems today... and many of those problems stem specifically from the silencing of opposition for fear of repercussions... |
I would thank you not to put words in my mouth, Trinity. Why would you even say that? I was referring to avoidance of a Gish Gallop type scenario, actually. Of course, in grade school, whatever the popular kid says wins, regardless of what actual points are made.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
My point is... and you are right, you can teach this class without expressing the basis for your beleifs... however, it should not be prohibited because some pointy head has somehow decided that by doing so is somehow equivalent to 'making a law respecting a religion'. The basis for this argument is what the 1st Amendment has to say about religion and its endorsement. |
Hmm, 'pointy head', eh? Nice rhetoric, very maturely stated. It's so easy to take you seriously. 
| Trinity1 wrote: |
The Amendment deals with the action of congress... not the states... and not the schools. |
The first amendment applies to all levels of government, including public schools.
| Trinity1 wrote: |
Up until 1832 (or there abouts) there were a few states that did have an official religion, codified, into law. I believe that is indeed unconstitutional. However, a teacher telling his or her class that they are a Christian, believe God created everything, and that the Christian ethic of 'loving thy neighbor' is the basis for their treatment of others should not be prohibited. Nor is it profited by the constitution. That is what my point was. |
Here's something you should consider (colour added by me):
| An excerpt from the article I linked to above wrote: | School districts limit teachers’ religious expression in order to avoid violating the establishment clause, which requires separation between church and state. When teachers speak to their classes, they represent the school and the school board. Teachers, as agents of the government, may not inculcate students in religious matters. Otherwise, they run afoul of the establishment clause.
However, this does not mean that teachers can never speak about religion, for religion is an important part of history, culture and current events. A social studies class would likely need to include a discussion of religion. For instance, no complete study of the Crusades could occur without some discussion of Christianity and Islam. The 10th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals pointed out in Roberts v. Madigan (1990) that there is a “difference between teaching about religion, which is acceptable, and teaching religion, which is not.”
The confusion about permissible and impermissible religious expression by teachers has led to disciplinary action and even lawsuits. Many times these lawsuits pit a teacher's free-exercise and free-speech claims against a school's establishment-clause defense. The teachers claim they have a free-speech and free-exercise of religion right to express their religious views; after all, the First Amendment was adopted in part to ensure individual religious freedom. The schools counter that they must silence teachers’ religious expression on school grounds to avoid establishment-clause violations. The schools claim that if a teacher conveys his religious views to a student, a reasonable observer would view that as the state endorsing religion.
The cases outlined here feature the clash between teachers and school officials over teachers' religious liberty. Federal courts have often sided with school officials, recognizing that public schools, as arms of the government, must take care not to appear to indoctrinate students in religious matters. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Galaxy
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 5880
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Thu Sep 13, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Trinity1 wrote: | | No... not at all. It is my contention that your blanket prohibition is a draconian measure that prohibits teachers from expressing some of their core beliefs. |
And why should they express their core beliefs in regard to religion, exactly? |
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RevJP
Moderator
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Posts: 6840
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:59 am Post subject: |
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For the most part I agree with Ana's take on this. According to law/Constitution, the teacher's declaration would not be the establishment of a religion, but would most definitely be unwise as it could be construed as establishing bias, expectations, etc.
I think FFT is completely off-base. Such a declaration by the teacher is NOT prohibited by constitution or the court's interpretations of the 1st Amendment. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1549
Location: BC
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| Posted: Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:13 am Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | For the most part I agree with Ana's take on this. According to law/Constitution, the teacher's declaration would not be the establishment of a religion, but would most definitely be unwise as it could be construed as establishing bias, expectations, etc.
I think FFT is completely off-base. Such a declaration by the teacher is NOT prohibited by constitution or the court's interpretations of the 1st Amendment. |
Well, except in court rulings. See, teachers in public schools are acting in a 'state' capacity, rather than as private citizens. The federal courts have sided with the schools when they say "they must silence teachers’ religious expression on school grounds to avoid establishment-clause violations" (taken from my earlier excerpt). |
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