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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:03 pm Post subject: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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Simply looking at the Roman Catholic Churches history, reveals that fact !
Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine, and since the church, ran the state...laws were enacted to persecute those who wanted to follow the Bible only.
The policy of the Catholic church is that 'freedom of conscience', to worship God, as the person sees fit, is a pest, that is to be destroyed !
"The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience.
Nothing is dearer or more fundamental.
Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' |
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RND
Bear Cub
Joined: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 629
Location: Victorville, California, USA Corporate
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | "The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience.
Nothing is dearer or more fundamental.
Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' |
No wonder Romanism, throught the Jesuit order and the Jesuit Freemason have been working so hard to destroy an remote vestage of freedom in the united States. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Wed Feb 28, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| RND wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | "The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience.
Nothing is dearer or more fundamental.
Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' |
No wonder Romanism, throught the Jesuit order and the Jesuit Freemason have been working so hard to destroy an remote vestage of freedom in the united States. |
Just imagine what will happen once the freedom of speech and freedom of religion are gone....as the Bible predicts it will ! |
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | Simply looking at the Roman Catholic Churches history, reveals that fact !
Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine, and since the church, ran the state...laws were enacted to persecute those who wanted to follow the Bible only.
The policy of the Catholic church is that 'freedom of conscience', to worship God, as the person sees fit, is a pest, that is to be destroyed !
"The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience.
Nothing is dearer or more fundamental.
Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' |
Thanx, SS, for this topic.
To me, the problem is not unity of c&s, nor is the solution separation of c&s.
The real problem is hatred of self and of others as self in either church and state:
This hatred makes separation or divorce still bad.
This hatred makes unity doubly bad: unity with Hate on both sides.
The real solution is Unconditional Love in both c&s:
Then separation in Love works: they are still are friends.
Then unity in Love means double friendship.
And the bigger problem is with the Church/religion: religions still preach Hate for other religions within its own context or for the non-religions or for the unreligious.
If the Church/Religion wd preach Love of self as each word and its opposite, then its members wd fill the State with Love!
If Science, the religion of Science, wd preach love for each action and reaction, Science can also help! After all, pure math or pure science means doing math or science or both for the pure Love of each and all!
'Subtle is the Lord but Malicious He is not.'
A Einstein
in Love of Church in State and of State in Church, of the religion of science and of the science of religion,
atoz |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 2:30 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine. |
Do you have any documented proof of this number? Even taking the low end of your range (50M) is roughly two-thirds the population of Europe at it's peak in the middle ages.
Source |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 06, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| TwoPutt wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine. |
Do you have any documented proof of this number? Even taking the low end of your range (50M) is roughly two-thirds the population of Europe at it's peak in the middle ages.
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Do you really think anyone would keep accurate records of people that that church killed, which would later condemn their past actions ?
That would be like asking a Christian if they kept records, of all the sins they commited of the past, before they became Christians.
NO !
No One wants to be reminded of their past, especially when it was terrible. |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Fri Sep 07, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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Hi SS,
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine. |
Do you have any documented proof of this number? Even taking the low end of your range (50M) is roughly two-thirds the population of Europe at it's peak in the middle ages.
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Do you really think anyone would keep accurate records of people that that church killed, which would later condemn their past actions ? |
Where then do you get the number range of 50 - 150 million? |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| TwoPutt wrote: | Hi SS,
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine. |
Do you have any documented proof of this number? Even taking the low end of your range (50M) is roughly two-thirds the population of Europe at it's peak in the middle ages.
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Do you really think anyone would keep accurate records of people that that church killed, which would later condemn their past actions ? |
Where then do you get the number range of 50 - 150 million? |
Ever read Fox's Book of Martyrs ?
Try reading that, as it reveals what is to come in the soon-coming Mark of the Beast scenerio. |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Sat Sep 08, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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Hi SS,
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | Hi SS,
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Millions of people (50-150 million) have been killed because they did not follow the churches doctrine. |
Do you have any documented proof of this number? Even taking the low end of your range (50M) is roughly two-thirds the population of Europe at it's peak in the middle ages.
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Do you really think anyone would keep accurate records of people that that church killed, which would later condemn their past actions ? |
Where then do you get the number range of 50 - 150 million? |
Ever read Fox's Book of Martyrs ? |
Yes, (here's a link for any interested -- Foxe's Book of Martyrs) as well skimming portions of Martyr's Mirror. I've also read The Trail of Blood several times even though I've come to understand it to be an erroneous piece of historical rambling. (The Trail of Blood's claim to 50 million deaths may very well come from Foxe's book).
My point is, what are the sources from which this number is derived. And, how do you account for the persecution of protestants towards those who didn't hold to their particular persuasion of Christianity? Do you lump them in with the Catholics as "daughters of the harlot"?
Again, the numbers don't seem to correlate to demographic information we have available to us. I don't doubt the use of government powers by the Catholic church to enforce its edicts, but that number seems a bit exaggerated.
If you have reputable sources to confirm those numbers I'd be happy to change my views. Not trying to be contentious here.
| SilverSurfer wrote: | | Try reading that, as it reveals what is to come in the soon-coming Mark of the Beast scenerio. |
What if I don't believe the mark of the beast is what you believe it to be?
God bless,
2P |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Sep 09, 2007 6:30 am Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| TwoPutt wrote: | What if I don't believe the mark of the beast is what you believe it to be?
God bless,
2P |
My mission for Jesus Christ is not to make to do anything you don't want to, or believe anything you don't want to.
The mission of every SDA is to help people prepare for God's Judgment Day, and to reveal what the Bible has to says about passing that Judgment Day.
Whether you use that knowledge properly, is up to you.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee....seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God....."
33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked [man], thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked [man] shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
33:9 Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul. |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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Hi SilverSurfer
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | What if I don't believe the mark of the beast is what you believe it to be?
God bless,
2P |
My mission for Jesus Christ is not to make to do anything you don't want to, or believe anything you don't want to.
The mission of every SDA is to help people prepare for God's Judgment Day, and to reveal what the Bible has to says about passing that Judgment Day.
Whether you use that knowledge properly, is up to you. |
Sounds fair.
So, what about the references to the numbers you are putting forth (50 to 150 million)?
God bless,
2P |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:28 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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| TwoPutt wrote: | Hi SilverSurfer
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: | What if I don't believe the mark of the beast is what you believe it to be?
God bless,
2P |
My mission for Jesus Christ is not to make to do anything you don't want to, or believe anything you don't want to.
The mission of every SDA is to help people prepare for God's Judgment Day, and to reveal what the Bible has to says about passing that Judgment Day.
Whether you use that knowledge properly, is up to you. |
Sounds fair.
So, what about the references to the numbers you are putting forth (50 to 150 million)?
God bless,
2P |
That is why the numbers vary so widely, as no one knows the exact count.
One expert says one number, another expert says some other number.
BUT, anyone who has stiudied history KNOWS that the RCC has killed millions of people who did not submity to their authority, as ruler of Man's religous beliefs.
Even today, priests and cardinals take a vow to persecute ANYONE who opposes the RCC doctrines......
"The Constitution of the United States guarantees liberty of conscience.
Nothing is dearer or more fundamental.
Pope Pius IX, in his Encyclical Letter of August 15, 1854, said: `The absurd and erroneous doctrines or ravings in defense of liberty of conscience are a most pestilential error--a pest, of all others, most to be dreaded in a state.' The same pope, in his Encyclical Letter of December 8, 1864, anathematized `those who assert the liberty of conscience and of religious worship,' also 'all such as maintain that the church may not employ force.'
"The pacific tone of Rome in the United States does not imply a change of heart.
She is tolerant where she is helpless.
Says Bishop O'Connor: 'Religious liberty is merely endured until the opposite can be carried into effect without peril to the Catholic world.'. . . The archbishop of St. Louis once said: 'Heresy and unbelief are crimes; and in Christian countries, as in Italy and Spain, for instance, where all the people are Catholics, and where the Catholic religion is an essential part of the law of the land, they are punished as other crimes.'. . .
"Every cardinal, archbishop, and bishop in the Catholic Church takes an oath of allegiance to the pope, in which occur the following words: 'Heretics, schismatics, and rebels to our said lord (the pope), or his aforesaid successors, I will to my utmost persecute and oppose.'"--Josiah Strong, Our Country, ch. 5, pars. 2-4. |
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TwoPutt
Fierce Puppy
Joined: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 227
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 11, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: Combine Church and State....Persecution Follows ! |
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Hi SilverSurfer,
| Silver Surfer wrote: | | TwoPutt wrote: |
So, what about the references to the numbers you are putting forth (50 to 150 million)? |
That is why the numbers vary so widely, as no one knows the exact count.
One expert says one number, another expert says some other number. |
Yes, but who are these experts? You mentioned Foxe but never followed up on my response.
| SilverSurfer wrote: | | BUT, anyone who has stiudied history KNOWS that the RCC has killed millions of people who did not submity to their authority, as ruler of Man's religous beliefs. |
Millions? Could you provide some sources for these numbers?
Again, I know of the atrocities of the Catholic church; but, you're throwing out unsubstantiated numbers and it makes you appear as though you are on some sort of crusade (sorry, couldn't help it). I've been a part of a group that also made these claims. However, the size of the numbers thrown around without references made the argument seem irrational. 1 death is all it takes to reveal such an entity is not of Christ. Agreed?
God bless,
2P |
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 802
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: |
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"A Woman Rides the Beast" Dave Hunt P. 256:
"Though no exact figures are available, the slaughter of these Christians by the popes probably ran into the millons during the thousand years before the Reformation. In the city of Beziers alone about 60,000 men,women and children were wiped out in one crusade. Innocent III considered the annihilation of these particular heretics the crowning achievement of his papacy!" |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2587
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2007 7:37 am Post subject: |
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| Pete wrote: | "A Woman Rides the Beast" Dave Hunt P. 256:
"Though no exact figures are available, the slaughter of these Christians by the popes probably ran into the millons during the thousand years before the Reformation. In the city of Beziers alone about 60,000 men,women and children were wiped out in one crusade. Innocent III considered the annihilation of these particular heretics the crowning achievement of his papacy!" |
Thanks for that information, Pete.
I have that book, and it is a book that I think every person who calls themselves Christian, should read.
Another book that goes along with that one is, "Keys of this Blood", by Malachi Martin (a Catholic insider, who reveals the Plans of the Catholic church for the rest of the Christian world). |
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