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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1989
Location: Atlanta
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 Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: Was Jesus a Jewish Unitary Monotheist? |
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If Jesus wanted to convey the idea that he fully embraced the Jewish concept of God (i.e. unitary monotheism - only one person - the Father - is the one true God), what words would he have used to accomplish that purpose?
Do the NT writers provide us with a record that show him using those words? |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Thu Jun 12, 2008 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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There are many, but one is very simple,
Matthew chapter 26 verse 52
'Jesus said to him: "Put back your sword where it belongs. Those who use the sword are sooner or later destroyed by it. Do you not suppose I can call on my Father to provide at a moment's notice more than twelve legions of angels? But then how would the Scriptures be fulfilled which say it must happen this way?
What do you think He meant by that. Yeshua had only one Holy Scripture in His day. They Holy Hebrew Scriptures or our Old Testament. The Old Testament prophets fortold all the things that happened including the way the suffering servant would die.
One other would be Matthew chapter l that claims Yeshua to be the son of David, son of Abraham. That my friend is the clencher, for David was the King of Israel and Abraham it's Patriarch. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1989
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | | There are many, ... |
Perhaps the most important of the "many" would be Jesus' assertion in Mark 12:29 that the Shema, the (unitary monotheistic) creed of Judaism, is the greatest commandment. The Jewish scribe thought so. |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1989
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:45 am Post subject: |
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"This is eternal life, that they may know you [Father], the only true God..." (John 17:3)
An expression that any Jewish unitary monotheist would readily say and/or affirm. |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 990
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 2:13 pm Post subject: |
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1 John 2:22;"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son." 23 "Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: but he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also."
2 John 9: "Whosoever transgesseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son." 10;"If there come any unto you, and and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:" 11 For he that biddeth him God speed is a partaker of his evil deeds." |
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Rocket
House Cat
Joined: 10 Dec 2006
Posts: 160
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:17 pm Post subject: |
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No one is denying Yeshua. He was an Orthodox Jew, born into an Orthodox Jewish family who believed in the Shema, recited it every day of His life according to the Jewish law. "Hear O'Israel the Lord is our God, the Lord alone." This is the Great Commandment. If you read Deuteronomy chapter 7, it tells Gods people they will enter the land He promised them and they shall dislodge great nations, the Hittites, the Girgashites, Amorites. Canaanites,perizzites, Hivites and theJebusites: these seven nations were all pagan. God wanted them to tear down their alters, smash their sacred pillars, chop down their sacred poles and destroy their idols.
Here we are is the 21st century worshipping in churches that have pagan beliefs. The trinity is a pagan belief. We keep sacred many rituals that come from paganism.
If you believe that Yeshua was beaten for your transgressions, and died the most horrible death on a Roman cross so your sins can be forgiven, don't you think you owe it to Him to find out the truth? |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1989
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Sun Jun 15, 2008 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| Rocket wrote: | | No one is denying Yeshua. He was an Orthodox Jew, born into an Orthodox Jewish family who believed in the Shema, recited it every day of His life according to the Jewish law. "Hear O'Israel the Lord is our God, the Lord alone." This is the Great Commandment. |
I am in dialogue with someone in another thread who believes that the Shema is a Trinitarian Creed, that the Jews became unitary monotheists only after the doctrine of the Trinity was developed, and that Jesus was a Trinitarian.
My purpose in starting this thread was to examine whether or not the words Jesus spoke are consistent with Jewish monotheism.
I think Jesus sounds like a Jewish unitary monotheist rather than a Christian trinitary monotheist. |
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Pete
Big Lion
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 990
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: |
I am in dialogue with someone in another thread who believes that the Shema is a Trinitarian Creed, that the Jews became unitary monotheists only after the doctrine of the Trinity was developed, and that Jesus was a Trinitarian.
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What evidence does this person have to back up this kind of claim? Any chapter and verse? |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 6:58 am Post subject: |
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Looking at the Shema one has to wonder what it has to do with the doctrine of the Trinity?
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God — the LORD alone."
or another commonly used variation:
"Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God! The LORD is One!"
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Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: Re: Was Jesus a Jewish Unitary Monotheist? |
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| Mattathias wrote: | If Jesus wanted to convey the idea that he fully embraced the Jewish concept of God (i.e. unitary monotheism - only one person - the Father - is the one true God), what words would he have used to accomplish that purpose?
Do the NT writers provide us with a record that show him using those words? |
A really interesting question.
He may have said things like
"There is none good but God". Although this is interpretted by some as asserting the fact of His diety.
Or Revelation 3:12
| Quote: | | Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name. |
This verse would suggest Jesus worships God the Father as His God, not "equal in substance...".
Most of us assume that unitary monotheism, understood as meaning God the Father is God alone in one person and Jesus being God are mututally exclusive, unless you try to say they are really one and the same person.
But here are a few things Jesus would not have said, had He wanted His disciples to believe that He was not God:
Mark 2:5
| Quote: | | When Jesus saw their faith, he said unto the sick of the palsy, Son, thy sins be forgiven thee. |
John 14:15
| Quote: | | If ye love me, keep my commandments. |
This is an allusion to something God spoke in Exodus, and here Jesus is claiming this applies to Him.
Mark 14:62
| Quote: | | And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven. |
An allusion to prophetic passages describing God coming in judgement against Israel. Jesus applies this position to Himself.
John 10:30
| Quote: | | I and my Father are one. |
Today we try to split hairs about in what way Jesus meant He and His Father are one, but the chapter tells us that those hearing this understood Him to mean that He, Jesus, is God.
God is God alone. He is all powerful. He can do whatever He wishes. What if He wished to bestow His authority, His power, even His Godhood on another Who He considered worthy? Consider these verses:
John 3:35
| Quote: | | The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. |
John 5:26
| Quote: | | For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; |
John 13:3
| Quote: | | Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God; |
Matthew 28:18
| Quote: | | And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. |
Acts 2:36
| Quote: | | Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. |
Heb 1:
| Quote: | 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:
4Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. |
Heb 2:
| Quote: | 8But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
9Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows. |
My opinion is Jesus is God because God who is God alone and all powerful said so!!
Earlier in this post I qoted Rev 3:12. In that verse Jesus says He had a new name. What do you suppose Jesus' new name was? I think it was "God".
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Last edited by Zathrus on Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:08 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2057
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
I appreciate all those verses but don't see your conclusion.
| Zathrus wrote: | | My opinion is Jesus is God because God who is God alone and all powerful said so!! |
I didn't see God saying Jesus is God in any of those. Jesus is the second most powerful person in the universe and is given all authority by God Himself. Jesus does all things for the glory of his Father. Yet what happens at the end of the thousand years.
1 Cor 15:24 Next, the end, when he hands over the kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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| TBax wrote: | Zathrus,
I appreciate all those verses but don't see your conclusion. |
I edited the post a bit so that what I'm pointing out in each verse is clearer.
| TBax wrote: |
I didn't see God saying Jesus is God in any of those. |
That's interesting. The quotes from the gospels can be understood as just meaning that Jesus was given a lot of authority. But when I consider the quotes from Acts and Hebrews, as well as the examples in the gospels where Jesus speaks as God Himself, it's pretty clear.
He said He has nothing of His own, and received all He has from the Father, but it seems He received even Godhood.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2057
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:08 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
Did you see that scripture in 1 Cor 15 that shows Jesus handing the kingdom over to his God and Father, that God may be all things to everyone?
Is it your understanding that Jesus wasn't God, but obtained "Godhood". If this is what you think do you believe Jesus became equal to his Father?
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Agape,
TBax |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2270
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Sure I saw the passage in 1 Cor 15. Sorry, I got hung up on you saying it was to come to pass after the 1000 years, and not wanting to take the thread off topic, I didin't comment on it.
It's my understanding that Jesus is not God in and of Himself, but that He was appointed that status by God the Father. Jesus is God only because God the Father willed it to be so.
| TBax wrote: | | If this is what you think do you believe Jesus became equal to his Father? |
I'm not sure the term equal as we typically understand it applies to the situation. Jesus was given all authority. He was given God's name. He is Lord of all. God is Lord of all. Jesus sits upon the throne. God sits upon the throne.
Yet Jesus in and of Himself is nothing. He was given all this by His Father. And He remains completely reliant upon His Father. The passage in 1 Cor 15 speaking of Christ putting down all rule and authority and having all things under His feet tells us it is God who causes all things to be put under His feet. Jesus is Lord of all because God appointed Him to be. So in that regard, He is not equal. He said "My Father is greater than I".
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
Officially approved in 451 |
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TBax
King Kong
Joined: 24 Oct 2005
Posts: 2057
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| Posted: Mon Jun 16, 2008 3:46 pm Post subject: |
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Zathrus,
If I read that right it doesn't seem much different then what I believe, except that he "was given God's name". Also that "he sits on God's throne".
Heb 1:8 But with reference to the Son: “God is your throne forever and ever, and [the] scepter of your kingdom is the scepter of uprightness.
Saying "God is your throne" is saying he rules with God's backing. I believe this was originally a Psalm and applied to a human king.
Jesus does indeed sit at God's right hand. Even Stephen's vision verified this.
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Agape,
TBax |
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