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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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 Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 11:19 am Post subject: The U.S. & Britain in Prophesy. |
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 I am new here and years ago (1986) I went to the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong who had just died and then heritics (Orthodoxy) took over the Church and ruined it and so many of us in that group became dispersed as lone rangers without a congregation to call our own and I was one of those.
Mr. Armstrong wrote a book - a very influential and powerful message book called; The U.S. and Britain in Prophesy, and now that book's copy right is with a break off group called the Philadelphia Church of God in Colorado and it is available free online.
FYI, I would put a few links in but since I am a new radical heritic here then I must wait before being allowed to post any links.
So is anyone here familiar with H.W. Armstrong? or that famous book? and how it applies now?
Also for those who might not know it, the book (US&BiP) was taken from an older version by a different author called some thing like "the Davidic Covenent and Joseph's Birthright" so the message was passed along by HW Armstrong but it was not invented by him.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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I knew someone who had a copy of the book. He told me what it was about. It presents the theory that the 10 tribes of Israel who were dispersed and never returned to the land of Israel migrated to Europe and eventually became who we know as the Anglo-Saxons, who inhabitted England and colonized the US.
I also have met a few other people who are former members of the Worldwide Church of God. They tell me that after Herbert Armstrong's passing away, some tried to remain hardliners, and many others embraced a gospel much more concerned with grace and freedom. Very interesting and exciting, meeting these people and hearing their stories.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: The U.S. & Britain in Prophesy. |
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| Booky wrote: | :arrow: I am new here and years ago (1986) I went to the Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert W. Armstrong who had just died and then heritics (Orthodoxy) took over the Church and ruined it and so many of us in that group became dispersed as lone rangers without a congregation to call our own and I was one of those.
So is anyone here familiar with H.W. Armstrong? or that famous book? and how it applies now?
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Hi Booky, Back in the late 60's and early 70's I was a member of the WWCG, when things began to hit the fan. GTA's indiscretions, and HWA beginning to think he had to jet around the world in his private plane and hobnob with world leaders etc. That's about when things began to come unglued.
The leadership that took over came from our Arlington Hts. group. They became involved with the Bible Answer man guy (can't remember his name), but a trinitarian know-it-all. Since then, I guess the Worldwide group has split into dozens of other groups.
I was shown the door, since my nature is to ask a lot of questions, and not fall in line because someone says so.
Armstrong was basically too legalistic, and that group now is too Catholic. I haven't joined any church since then, since they are all unbiblical and self-righteous. |
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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 2:18 pm Post subject: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | I knew someone who had a copy of the book. He told me what it was about. It presents the theory that the 10 tribes of Israel who were dispersed and never returned to the land of Israel migrated to Europe and eventually became who we know as the Anglo-Saxons, who inhabitted England and colonized the US. |
 That is okay but reading the book is better in referencing the specific Bible text and seeing how it all folds together out of the scriptures does make the message more pointed and precise.
| Zathrus wrote: |
I also have met a few other people who are former members of the Worldwide Church of God. They tell me that after Herbert Armstrong's passing away, some tried to remain hardliners, and many others embraced a gospel much more concerned with grace and freedom. Very interesting and exciting, meeting these people and hearing their stories. |
 That last sentence is so true. That is why I was asking. And a few years ago I was having a real difficult experience and a complete stranger came up to me and offered real assistance to me and I found out later that we both had been dispersed from the WCG after the church turned insane. It really was a cool experience and I was studying it for years and then arrived just as the stuff was about to hit the fan and so I was there and at that time I was near the headquarters in Los Angeles area for it all.
Building things is certainly interesting and challenging, but tearing the stuff down is a whole other adventure indeed.
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SIGNATURE: Booky
No greater service can anyone do then their own duty to the fullest.
No conflict is truly over until the opponent believes it is over too.
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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 3:38 pm Post subject: Re: The U.S. & Britain in Prophesy. |
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| Pete wrote: |
Hi Booky, Back in the late 60's and early 70's I was a member of the WWCG, when things began to hit the fan. GTA's indiscretions, and HWA beginning to think he had to jet around the world in his private plane and hobnob with world leaders etc. That's about when things began to come unglued. |
 I heard about those times but I was still too young and foolish at those times.
The G.T. Armstrong mess sounded over rated to me, and now in hind-sight GTA would have been far more desireable then what we ended up with.
And I liked it that HW Armstrong would dabble with the worldly leaders in "our" BIG private jet, because we all felt that was God's way of testifying the Gospel to the uptown high and powerful people while the TV show went out to everybody down town.
HWA did not just teach us to think higher of ourselves, he also showed us how to act higher.
| Pete wrote: |
The leadership that took over came from our Arlington Hts. group. They became involved with the Bible Answer man guy (can't remember his name), but a trinitarian know-it-all. Since then, I guess the Worldwide group has split into dozens of other groups. |
 So did you know the Tkach's?
I did not know it was specifically the "Bible Answer Man" but I did know it was the ones from the big Christian TV broadcast in Los Angeles.
Joe Tkach was a great follower in Armstrong's huge shaddow and fell like a foolish child and destroyed the WCG at the same time.
| Pete wrote: |
I was shown the door, since my nature is to ask a lot of questions, and not fall in line because someone says so. |
 So do you still hold on to the doctrines? the Sabbath? feast days? 2 tithings? US&B in Prophesy? renewing the face of the earth? the Kindom come on earth as it is in Heaven? etc.?
| Pete wrote: |
Armstrong was basically too legalistic, and that group now is too Catholic. I haven't joined any church since then, since they are all unbiblical and self-righteous. |
So you too are another lone ranger - I love it.
There is a cool text I found in the Quran that says God (Allah) spreads His people out like salt into the population, and Jesus refered to His people as salt, and as we all know - too much salt in one place is not a blessing. That is my concept of it.
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SIGNATURE: Booky
No greater service can anyone do then their own duty to the fullest.
No conflict is truly over until the opponent believes it is over too.
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Pete
Tiger
Joined: 31 May 2006
Posts: 873
Location: Arlington Hts., Il. USA
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| Posted: Thu May 29, 2008 5:54 pm Post subject: |
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I have most of Armstrong’s books somewhere in my library, but haven’t read them in years. He had another, “1998 in Prophecy” (maybe it was a different year). That book, like most prophecy books, never panned out.
The Tkatch’s moved to California the same month I started attending, so I never knew them.
Almost everything Armstrong taught was Jewish legalism. Apparently, he never paid attention to Paul’s writings concerning Gentile Christians. I don’t observe any day above another, nor the annual Jewish feasts, or tithing. Most preachers talk about tithing, since they love getting into people’s wallets. The fact is, you couldn’t tithe today if you wanted to, and preachers are taking money under false pretenses. The tithe can only legitimately be collected by the Levitical priesthood, for the temple expenses in Jerusalem. Since neither exists today, tithing cannot biblically be done.
About the only thing he was correct about was rejecting Trinitarianism, but in the process went way over the edge on legalism.
When I left the WWC, the membership was instructed to have nothing to do with me and a few others who left at the same time. A few of my close friends ignored those instructions, and kept me informed of what was going on.
One fellow I met later, was a professor at their English college, and had spent a lot of time at archeological digs in Israel and knew a lot of officials there. As a result, he had come up with interesting Biblical information, and thought that the Church should know about it. He was invited to go to Pasadena for talks, and when he got there the only thing he was told is that he was fired. End of meeting.
He later started a web site www.askelm which I think is still going, although he has passed away. It is not a church, but is Bible oriented around history, doctrines, and other Bible related topics.
The above site didn't work for me until I "Googled" it. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:02 am Post subject: Re: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Booky wrote: | | That is okay but reading the book is better in referencing the specific Bible text and seeing how it all folds together out of the scriptures does make the message more pointed and precise. |
Certainly reading the book is a more thorough way of finding out about the ideas in it than talking to someone else who has read it.
Doesn't the very premise of the book miss the point of God's plan - to gather His true Israel, we who believe, into their heavenly land, the one the writer of Hebrews said our father Abraham looked for?
Speculating about where the natural descendants of those 10 tribes of Jews went is interesting no doubt. But it's more academic than spiritually relevant IMO. To say that natural Israel, or their lost descendants figure in prophecy is a stretch IMO. And personally, I tend to think that most if not all the descendants of the 10 tribes who never returned intermarried with the people of the nations who invaded them (that was one method of taking away their identity after invading them - assimilate them) and lived in the regions surrounding Israel in the time of Christ. The same regions which Paul and others in the early church preached the good news of the savior in.
So in preaching the gospel in the surrounding regions in the days of the early church, the apostles and others in the early church were truly fulfilling the prophecies of God gathering His people back to their land.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:50 am Post subject: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Pete wrote: |
Almost everything Armstrong taught was Jewish legalism. Apparently, he never paid attention to Paul’s writings concerning Gentile Christians. I don’t observe any day above another, nor the annual Jewish feasts, or tithing. Most preachers talk about tithing, since they love getting into people’s wallets. The fact is, you couldn’t tithe today if you wanted to, and preachers are taking money under false pretenses. The tithe can only legitimately be collected by the Levitical priesthood, for the temple expenses in Jerusalem. Since neither exists today, tithing cannot biblically be done. |
I like the "legalism" in the Bible, and I see it as a sign of strength.
I still try to keep the Sabbath and Feast Days but it is more challenging as a lone ranger.
As for tithing I give my tithes to people and projects that I find worthy of it.
I now say that giving my tithes to a Church would be shirking my own duty to use the tithe wisely.
| Pete wrote: |
He later started a web site oooooo which I think is still going, although he has passed away. It is not a church, but is Bible oriented around history, doctrines, and other Bible related topics.
The above site didn't work for me until I "Googled" it. |
I like your link given (had to ooooo it since I can not post links) and I had to click it again to get to its "HomePage" but I do like it at first look.
It says in "Biography" that both the founders were WCG and worked with HW Armstrong and that does give is more credibility.
I will have to check it again later but thank you for the link.
P.S. Someday I hope this Forum will show me an example of a website link that would create such fear as to merit the denial of links from a new member. I go to many Internet Forums and that is an excessive rule - and claiming a religious tolerance makes the rule even more excessive. I would sincerely suggest to the management that you reconsider the rule as more damning of yourselves then protective of others. IMO.
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SIGNATURE: Booky
No greater service can anyone do then their own duty to the fullest.
No conflict is truly over until the opponent believes it is over too.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 6:57 am Post subject: Re: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Booky wrote: | | P.S. Someday I hope this Forum will show me an example of a website link that would create such fear as to merit the denial of links from a new member. |
I'm not a moderator or anything, but I do recall seeing a link that someone posted on the Christain Viewpoints site, which is owned by the same company who runs this site, and a few people clicked on it and whatever was on that link almost wrecked their computers.
The mods do a good job of cleaning it up before I or others here ever see it, but these boards do get spammed from time to time. Just look at the names of some of the most recent people who've signed up way at the bottom of the forum index sometime.
_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Zathrus wrote: |
Certainly reading the book is a more thorough way of finding out about the ideas in it than talking to someone else who has read it. |
Yes, there is no real way around that. The book gives the specific Bible texts and it shows how the parts fit together.
It seems much like explaining the crucifixtion to some one that will not read the Gospel.
Of course there are lots of books that I do not read, like Nostradomus is a joke (I did look through it though), so we must seek out the truth and that some times means reading a lot of peculiar stuff.
| Zathrus wrote: |
Doesn't the very premise of the book miss the point of God's plan - to gather His true Israel, we who believe, into their heavenly land, the one the writer of Hebrews said our father Abraham looked for? |
That makes sense and it is a smart observation.
But the answer is no. The US & Britain in Prophecy is only one of many topics covered in the Bible and beyond.
That message is not needed for salvation and it simply is not for everyone even though it is offered to everyone. We do not give the children's food to dogs.
The Bible has milk or meat messages with some thing for the hypocrites and some thing for the self righteous and some thing for the repentant beginners and some thing for the true disciple.
| Zathrus wrote: |
Speculating about where the natural descendents of those 10 tribes of Jews went is interesting no doubt. But it's more academic than spiritually relevant IMO. To say that natural Israel, or their lost descendents figure in prophecy is a stretch IMO. |
That is the part you miss out on by not knowing that message.
The word "Brit" means covenant and thus British means covenant people.
The USA is the one great nation while the British are the group of nations. Genesis 48:16-20
The name Denmark means mark of Dan (as in tribe of Dan)(the vowel in Hebrew can be "e" or "a") and the name "Danish" means people of Dan or tribe of Dan.
The French is the perverted Rueben, and Ireland / Irish is Simeon the violent, Genesis 49:3-7 , and note Gen 49:1 that these represent "the last days" and not the early days.
And the Jews are Judah, the people of Judah are called Jews. Still a decedent and a tribe of Israel but not Israel.
The very first place in the Bible that the word "Jews" is mentioned in the Bible is when the Jews are at war with Israel. Israel is at war against the Jews.
2 Kings 16:5-6
5 Then Rezin king of Syria and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel came up to Jerusalem to war: and they besieged Ahaz, but could not overcome him.
6 At that time Rezin king of Syria recovered Elath to Syria, and drave the Jews from Elath: and the Syrians came to Elath, and dwelt there unto this day. KJV.
And a non-Israel tribe is that Germany (Aryan) are the decendents of Israel's enemy Assyria. An interesting reference to it here at 1 Chronicles 5:6
And there is lots more info too.
| Zathrus wrote: |
And personally, I tend to think that most if not all the descendents of the 10 tribes ... lived in the regions surrounding Israel in the time of Christ. The same regions which Paul and others in the early church preached the good news of the savior in. |
In many ways I agree as the cross migration was not complete at that time, but it is also a peculiar claim that the Apostle Paul traveled all the way to the British isles.
| Zathrus wrote: |
So in preaching the gospel in the surrounding regions in the days of the early church, the apostles and others in the early church were truly fulfilling the prophecies of God gathering His people back to their land. |
That just does not add up at all.
To find some thing that adds up much better then read the US and Britain in Prophecy, and it is free in print or online at the Philidelphia church of God website.
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SIGNATURE: Booky
No greater service can anyone do then their own duty to the fullest.
No conflict is truly over until the opponent believes it is over too.
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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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| Posted: Fri May 30, 2008 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Booky wrote: | | P.S. Someday I hope this Forum will show me an example of a website link that would create such fear as to merit the denial of links from a new member. |
I'm not a moderator or anything, but I do recall seeing a link that someone posted on the Christain Viewpoints site, which is owned by the same company who runs this site, and a few people clicked on it and whatever was on that link almost wrecked their computers.
The mods do a good job of cleaning it up before I or others here ever see it, but these boards do get spammed from time to time. Just look at the names of some of the most recent people who've signed up way at the bottom of the forum index sometime. |
That just does not really add up.
I use other Forums on psychology (with mentally ill members), and my town area has a local Internet Forum having our very active general public on it, and I have been to heated political Forums, and others too for many years and there is no fear of links.
And links do not inject viruses into our systems. One really needs to actually physically download a virus and that is not a legitimate fear on a Forum.
And this Forum has sign up registry that prevents any real spam attack if there ever was such a spam attack. I certainly have never seen such an advent happen on any other forum.
And if some poster put a porn link then we are a Bible based membership so such a link would be reported or disparaged (which is worse then reporting it), and a link to some radical religious website is not a threat to the members or to the Board.
I sincerely believe the link restriction harms the validity of this site more then it controls the wanton acts of any wild new member.
And in the Bible Christ tells us not to live in fear.
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Just giving my opinion and my suggestion. So do not get hot at ol' Booky here.
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SIGNATURE: Booky
No greater service can anyone do then their own duty to the fullest.
No conflict is truly over until the opponent believes it is over too.
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5150
Location: Missouri
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Booky
Tadpole
Joined: 27 May 2008
Posts: 25
Location: Maryland USA
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| Posted: Sat May 31, 2008 9:55 am Post subject: The truth will set us all free. |
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| Nobby wrote: | Booky, is this it? 
Philidelphia Church of God Website |
Well I was not seeking that kind of assistance and I was not expecting you to put up a link for me,
and I must confess that it appears very derogatory and insulting to me.
the Board Administrator (Nobby) above might have meant it in a polite and considerate way but it does not appear that way from my perspective.
The offer looks very insincere and disingenuous as he (or she??) is demonstrating to all as to who is the master and who (me) is not.
Yes I am a fanatic and a rebel and like myself that way, and so here is my impression of the "rule" on new members regarding links.
In order for me to continue on this Forum based in the now seen knowledge that this Board does do an unjustified injustice to new members then I can not ever align myself in such a company while respecting my own conscience, and so I can not continue in this manner that would prophet myself at the expense of new members as others here obviously do.
Therefore I will declare here and now that I will not ever put any link of any kind on this Forum so long as the injustice continues, so that way I can at least share the degrading burden with the next new members, and that way my conscience shall be clear by not sharing the guilt nor the weakness of those that inflict or condone the ongoing injustice.
I do see that there is a "Suggestion" Forum here and I probably will post a suggestion about it there, but I will also state my objections to it in other posts when I feel it is apropriate, and maybe in short time my conscience might demand that I just leave this Forum completely but that is not yet happened today.
So now I must give some more consideration to my participation on this Forum with such a wrong doing going on.
If this seems ridiculous to the Board then I surely do not belong here at all.
The Forum is in no real risk of any kind from any new member posting their link(s), and no member is in any risk from any link, the claim about viruses or spam might sound real but it is not.
The Bible tells us to live without fear of others, that an honest assessment is strionger then dishonest claims, and that we certainly must be respectful to other people and that includes new members.
God is not a dis-respector of persons, only people do that to each other.
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SIGNATURE: Booky
No greater service can anyone do then their own duty to the fullest.
No conflict is truly over until the opponent believes it is over too.
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2269
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: |
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_________________
Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
Certified Chalcedon Compliant
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Evee
Moderator
Joined: 13 Sep 2005
Posts: 642
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| Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 1:00 pm Post subject: |
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Booky,
Nobby was simply responding to an earlier statement you made regarding a website link. I believe he was responding to this:
| Booky wrote: | Mr. Armstrong wrote a book - a very influential and powerful message book called; The U.S. and Britain in Prophesy, and now that book's copy right is with a break off group called the Philadelphia Church of God in Colorado and it is available free online.
FYI, I would put a few links in but since I am a new radical heritic here then I must wait before being allowed to post any links. |
He was helping you since you could not post a link. A simple thank you would have been enough. If you took offense, I am sorry as I'm sure Nobby is as well. Nobby's heart is always in the right place.
| Booky wrote: | | the Board Administrator (Nobby) above might have meant it in a polite and considerate way but it does not appear that way from my perspective. |
He did mean it politely & considerately so perhaps a change in your perspective is warranted.
| Booky wrote: | | God is not a dis-respector of persons, only people do that to each other. |
You mean just like you did with Nobby?
If you choose not post links when you are able then that is your perogative. And you are correct in that if you want something to change, the best way to go about it is to put it in the Suggestion Box. Thanks.
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Don't get caught in the trap of thinking you know everything God has to say b/c you've read the Bible. Remember, God is STILL speaking. And surprisingly, through people we DON'T expect. |
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