George was not a deist!

JonMarie · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 12:30 am Post subject: George was not a deist!

George Washington and many other of our Founding Fathers were not protrayed correctly by those who willfully and intentionally decided to rewrite history for their own false agendas.

George was indeed a christian and if you desire proof, and I hope you do, please visit wallbuilders.org and read the historic documents written by the Founding Fathers themselves, on Jesus, the bible and christianity.[/b]

45degreeN · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:36 am Post subject:

Looking back over 200 years and trying to slice and dice the significant differences between Deist and Christian is not an easy point to make. Part of the issue is that far more than a majority started out as Anglicans since the Anglican church was part and parcel power of the king. some kings interfered far more than others in their "church duties." The church tax was levied against everyone whether or not one was a member. For someone to separate themselves from this church was a major choice one made and not lightly. Needless to say one could still maintain their membership and hold any other theological position without risking much.

Looking at Deism one can hardly separate it from the Masonic lodges that filled the colonies. So many of our founding fathers were members also of those lodges which was the source for much of the Deist literature. Of the two influences I would estimate that the lodges were far more of an influence than the Anglican church.

IMHO it is useless to try and separate these influences and try and declare those people as "Deist" or "Christian" the labels do not serve us when they might consider themselves both or "the same thing." Unless your agenda is to smear them with useless labels.

FFT · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 5:37 pm Post subject:

Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175]

Now let's check out this wallbuilders site. Oh hey, none of the quotes do anything to show that Washington was a Christian, only that he found (as many politicians have) that Christianity is useful.

JonMarie · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:39 pm Post subject:

JonMarie · Posted: Tue Jun 03, 2008 11:46 pm Post subject:

FFT · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:13 am Post subject:

45degreeN · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 4:01 am Post subject:

There is a perpetual argument that come from discussions like this and it belongs in the separation of church and state forum. If there had been any activity of late there, I might just suggest that it be moved there, but there hasn't been.

The simplistic definitions you offered outlining those two "isms" while undoubtedly accurate suggest it is easy to tell the difference. But the point I tried to make was first that the differences between the two at the end of the 18th century were small. One must try at least to use the terms as they were used in that time frame rather than looking back from this time frame.

Those founding fathers would probably identify themselves 100% as Christian and still hold to the deistic point of view again muddling those definitions. Unless you are attempting to include Deism within orthodox Christianity (as a subset). So many others have done just the opposite tried to exclude Deism from Christianity, claiming in the process that America was not founded on Christian principles.

That was my argument.

JonMarie · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:03 pm Post subject:

FFT · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject:

JonMarie · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:11 pm Post subject:

JonMarie · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject:

JonMarie · Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 9:20 pm Post subject:

FFT · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 1:06 am Post subject:

JonMarie · Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject:

45degreeN · Posted: Fri Jun 06, 2008 7:07 am Post subject:

Deism was a religious response to the Enlightenment's demands on reason. Great gains had been made in scientific circles and there was a rise in the Western world in the attempts to use reason to understand the world. Science had up until that point not attempted to eliminate religion (which started in the 19th century) so much as it had just made enormous advances.

The other factor I have tried to point out is that the English Civil war stood out in their minds and the animosity created when religious fervor takes ahold of a population. Deism was not a rejection of Christianity so much as a coping rationale that attempted to integrate the action of science and religion, given the limits of science at that time it seems rather primitive.

Deism therefore was merely the latest trend in intellectual reasoning (ca late 18th century) and their response to the pressures they felt.