Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby

FAQ

Contact

Profile

True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Goto page 1, 2 Next

Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Jehovah's Witness

Author

Message

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Zathrus wrote:

TBax wrote:

In order to become a witness of the true God Jehovah, one needs to be humble and teachable. As to what is clearly taught in the scriptures, that is a matter of opinion. Some say the trinity is clearly taught in the scriptures. It isn't! Some say immortality of the soul is clearly taught in the scriptures. It isn't! There are 34,000 different denominations in "Christianity". What is clearly taught in scripture is only found in one. Smile

True Christianity! You can either believe it or deny it according to what you think is "clearly taught in scripture".

This bears further discussion. But if you don't mind, I'll quote it in a new thread and begin discussion there.

I thought this response is worth discussing in a separate thread because this really highlights the thinking that goes on in authoritarian religious groups. The Witnesses are only one example. I have heard these very same things said in churches that I have attended in the last couple of decades which are by no means considered cults by mainstream Christianity.

TBax, you stated that a Witness for Jehovah must be humble and teachable. This defines acceptance of Witness doctrine as a matter of humility. This is very typical in groups wanting to exercise control over what their adherents believe. I have witnessed this controlling process in action, and had it used on me personally.

The greatest compliment that one seeking to follow Christ can be given is that they are humble. The most hurtful thing that they can be accused of is having pride. Many in "spiritual" leadership know this and use this very powerful lever to control people under their ministry.

Next, TBax, you point out that there are many divergent opinions on what is clearly taught in the scriptures. And this is certainly true. You cite a few examples.

You conclude that there is only one religious organization which actually does teach the truth as clearly taught in scripture. Now that is pure presumption. The thought is actually especially absurd because it is the Witnesses who claim they are that one organization. It is far more likely that none of them have all the truth as plainly taught in scriptures. Here is this very forum, discussions are going on about points of belief on which the Witnesses have changed their stance. The reason given for this is that greater light and revelation was given. Therefore it is reasonable to expect that further light and revelation will continue to be revealed. It is when in spiritual pride, one says that one has finally got it all worked out that one actually becomes unable to hear the truth that continues to be revealed. Even if the Witnesses were to be that one organization, it is clear they are not there yet. And so long as they claim that all who do not belong to their organization are condemned to perish in a coming Armageddon, they will not be that one organization.

So back to my not so hypothetical Witness member who quesrions the teaching he hears because it seems to lack support in scripture or outright contradict it. What I hear you telling me is that if such a person asks for greater clarification on this teaching that he has heard that does not line up wth scripture, and the "clarification" he is given is weak and flawed arguments to support such teaching (and this is well within the realm of possibility) that ultimately if he does not abandon what he sees revealed in scripture and embrace the teaching of the organization, flawed and untenable though it may be, that he is proud and unteachable.

This ends up putting the Witness member in a place where he/she cannot question teaching of the organization! Anyone who questions teaching and receives unsatisfactory answers is simply written off as devisive and proud.

In another thread on this forum, TBax, you stated that the Witnesses do not teach anything that you are aware of that is incorrect. Now it is clear why you would say that! You are not permitted to say whether their teaching is correct or not! You may request further clarification, but if that does not clear up the discrepancy between what you hear taught and scripture, you are just expected to be "humble and teachable" and blindly accept the teaching that is taught! This is the very same kind of control that the Roman Catholic church used, and still uses. The laity is not trusted to study the scripture for themselves and receive revelation from God. Doctrine is formulated by the hierarchy, and the laity are expected to simply blindly accept it.

If anything, this is a clear pattern of spiritual abuse. This is not the methods of a faithful and wise servant giving the household meat in due season. This is the method of an abusive servant, beating his fellowservants with accusations of being proud and unteachable.

On this very board, we have made much greater progress toward reaching understandings of the truth by allowing members the freedom to believe in a trinity, an immortal soul, a future earthly kingdom, you name it, if they believe the scripture contains such teachings, and examining them in the light of scripture. The Witness organization stifles any examination of teaching in the light of scripture, because ultimately if an adherent does not put the organization's teachings before scripture, they are proud and unteachable. BTW, putting church doctrine in precedence above scripture is another practice the Witnesses seem to have adopted from Catholicism. No religious organization which stifles examination of teaching and honest and open study of scripture can ever hope to receive greater light, much less arrive at all truth. Catholicism has been at it the longest. How close do you believe it has gotten them?

In 1 Thessalonians 5:21 we are told

Quote:

Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

Prove means to test, examine, hold to the light, try. No doubt your NWT words this verse far more accurately. This is what we are told to do.

As for your ultimatum of believing "true Christianity" or denying it according to what is plainly taught in scripture, I will stand up for anyone's right to believe what they see taught in scripture, even if it does not match what I see there. The reason there are 34,000 different opinions is because many have adopted the same practices that the Witnesses use, have stopped looking for the truth, and claim they have all of it. I stand up for anyone who believes what they see taught in scripture, and looks to God's Word, not an organization to lead them to the truth. I encourage everyone to have their own personal walk with God, not to have their spiritual life controlled by a dictating organization, whether it be the Witnesses or some mainstream Christian church.

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002

Posts: 1017

Posted: Sun Jul 13, 2008 7:04 pm Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Zathrus wrote:

You conclude that there is only one religious organization which actually does teach the truth as clearly taught in scripture. Now that is pure presumption. The thought is actually especially absurd because it is the Witnesses who claim they are that one organization. It is far more likely that none of them have all the truth as plainly taught in scriptures. Here is this very forum, discussions are going on about points of belief on which the Witnesses have changed their stance. The reason given for this is that greater light and revelation was given. Therefore it is reasonable to expect that further light and revelation will continue to be revealed. It is when in spiritual pride, one says that one has finally got it all worked out that one actually becomes unable to hear the truth that continues to be revealed. Even if the Witnesses were to be that one organization, it is clear they are not there yet. And so long as they claim that all who do not belong to their organization are condemned to perish in a coming Armageddon, they will not be that one organization.

Doesn't all religions "claim" to be the correct one? Don't religions that splinter from larger churches "claim" to be truer because of errors found in the mother church?

For example, why do you think prompted Martin Luther to touch-off Protestant Reformation? It was because he didn't like what was going on in the RCC. He was trying to reform the RCC. He didn't want to form his own church. But when things happened the way they happened I'm sure the Protestant Church thought they were the correct way to the truth. Then there were dissent and churches broke off from the Protestant Chruch and so on each of them claiming to be the correct way to the truth.

Aren't you being a little presumptuous in a way too? Granted, you are not claiming that YOUR way is the correct way. But why aren't you, instead, pointing to the correct way or who has the correct way instead of tearing down churches you don't like?

Like you said in the end, everyone has to have their own spiritual walk with God. But what about those who don't care to do it alone but in an organized structured way with the help of a leader? Let's face it, the Israelites worshipped together and so did the Christians. No Jew worshipped apart from his Jewish community and no Christian was apart from the church in his community.

You can walk with God alone or you can walk with God in the company of others. Let's not be so critical of those that prefer the latter because who determines which lonely walker has it all together? Hmm? He or she is certainly not sharing it with others! Rolling Eyes

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Ryck wrote:

Doesn't all religions "claim" to be the correct one? Don't religions that splinter from larger churches "claim" to be truer because of errors found in the mother church?

Ryck, this is beside my point. While all religious groups which honestly seek the truth will claim they teach as much of the truth as God has revealed to them, the answer to your question is definitely NO! Not all religious groups out there claim to be the only one that has the truth or has correct knowlege of it, like the Witnesses claim to. And NO, not all religious groups claim to have all of the truth of God's Word. It appears from statements made here on this forum that Witnesses actually believe this. Groups that make such claims are not to be trusted.

Ryck wrote:

Aren't you being a little presumptuous in a way too? Granted, you are not claiming that YOUR way is the correct way. But why aren't you, instead, pointing to the correct way or who has the correct way instead of tearing down churches you don't like?

I believe at the end of my post I did just that. It is to come together with open minds, share what we believe God has shown us in His Word or by His Spirit, and hold it up to the light of scripture.
And again you are either missing my point or slanting the argument to make my intentions look less than honorable. It will become evident whether they are honorable or not without your help, thankyou. Nowhere did I endeavor to tear down a religion. I am speaking out against practices and policies held by a variety of religious groups, not just the Witnesses. The Witnesses are notable among such organizations because they boldly admit they condemn independent thought and expect all their adherents to allow themselves to be spoon-fed their beliefs by their leadership.

Ryck wrote:

Like you said in the end, everyone has to have their own spiritual walk with God. But what about those who don't care to do it alone but in an organized structured way with the help of a leader?

This is also beside my point. I never spoke out against being involved in an organization which has leadership. I spoke out against that leadership controlling and manipulating the people looking to them for guidance. The role of a leader is to empower the Christians looking to them for leadership to reach their full potential. The style of "leadership" used in authoritarian and controlling religious organizations robs those under such leadership of all power.

Ryck wrote:

You can walk with God alone or you can walk with God in the company of others. Let's not be so critical of those that prefer the latter because who determines which lonely walker has it all together? Hmm? He or she is certainly not sharing it with others! Rolling Eyes

No one is speaking out against walking with others. You are either completely misunderstanding or misrepresenting. There is a big difference between walking with others and walking under the oppresion of a dictator. And that is what I was getting at in my post. Why did your response not even touch on that?

TBax
King of the Jungle

Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1940

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 4:54 am Post subject:

Zathrus, Truthfully I didn't read your entire post. Actually, most of it. I cannot get past the fact that you are condemning all organizations for the possibility of improper control of it's adherents. I agree, this power is almost always abused. But not always!!! You like to throw around the term "authoritarian religious groups". Did you realize the first century Christians could be assigned that term as well? They had overseers, traveling overseers, a governing body that handed down decisions, ect... Is it your contention that true Christians aren't to be humble and teachable? Just because some wicked people try to prey on such ones doesn't make those qualities undesirable. They are scripturally necessary for true Christians. For clarification, being humble and teachable doesn't mean being a blind follower. As we need to verify all we are taught from the scriptures. That is how we learn to trust Jehovah's true organization. Humility causes us to not lean upon our own understanding, but to trust Jehovah's words implicitly. In time we learn to trust God's organization as well, not in that they are infallible, but in that they have our best interests at heart, and that God does indeed use them to feed the domestics the proper food at the proper time. On the other end, haughtiness make us unwilling to bend to God's thought's. Then comes the criticisms, spiritual blindness, and lumping God's true organization in with all the false.

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:41 am Post subject:

TBax wrote:

I cannot get past the fact that you are condemning all organizations for the possibility of improper control of it's adherents. I agree, this power is almost always abused. But not always!!!

I am not condemning all organizations for improper control of adherents. In fact I do not condemn any organization. I condemn the practice of controlling and manipulating people. Would God the Witnesses would abandon this oppresive practice. Not only would it create a healthier environment for Witnesses, but if indeed they are so devoted to knowing all the truth God has revealed, it would accelerate their learning it.

TBax wrote:

You like to throw around the term "authoritarian religious groups". Did you realize the first century Christians could be assigned that term as well? They had overseers, traveling overseers, a governing body that handed down decisions, ect...

2 Corinthians 1:24

Quote:

Not for that we have dominion over your faith, but are helpers of your joy: for by faith ye stand.

The early church was nothing like the Witness organization or the multitudes of others today who use similar practices.

TBax wrote:

Is it your contention that true Christians aren't to be humble and teachable? Just because some wicked people try to prey on such ones doesn't make those qualities undesirable. They are scripturally necessary for true Christians.

It is my contention that many of those Christians considered proud and unteachable by the Witnesses and similar religious groups are actually sincere students of God's Word, hungry for God's truth, who simply have learned something from God's Word that the leadership of their organization chooses not to receive.

By the fact that above, you also characterize these victims, often the best and brightest, with potential to be leaders and teachers bringing the people into greater knowlege of God's truth, as proud and unteachable, you give evidence that you also buy into the mindset of such organizations.

And if that is true, then it indicates you've stopped verifying anything you are taught by the scriptures, and being humble and teachable, you allow your beliefs to be dictated to you.

TBax wrote:

Humility causes us to not lean upon our own understanding, but to trust Jehovah's words implicitly. In time we learn to trust God's organization as well, not in that they are infallible, but in that they have our best interests at heart, and that God does indeed use them to feed the domestics the proper food at the proper time.

No one who accuses another who has revelation that they don't have of being proud or unteachable has anyone's best interests but their own at heart.

TBax wrote:

...lumping God's true organization in with all the false. Sad

If it walks like an unclean bird and smells like an unclean bird...

TBax
King of the Jungle

Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1940

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 5:47 am Post subject:

Zathrus,

Zathrus wrote:

TBax wrote:

2 Corinthians 1:24

(2 Corinthians 1:24) Not that we are the masters over YOUR faith, but we are fellow workers for YOUR joy, for it is by [YOUR] faith that YOU are standing.

Yet they still practiced things that you would consider an "authoritarian religious group". Like disfellowshiping non-repentent wrongdoers.

Zathrus wrote:

TBax wrote:

...lumping God's true organization in with all the false.

If it walks like an unclean bird and smells like an unclean bird...

I condemn the practice of controlling and manipulating people.

Like the first century Christians???

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002

Posts: 1017

Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Zathrus wrote:

Ryck wrote:

Doesn't all religions "claim" to be the correct one? Don't religions that splinter from larger churches "claim" to be truer because of errors found in the mother church?

I would think, or like to think, that any group that have something better to offer would not keep it to themselves but say "Hey, we have something better" or "We have the truth". Or else what are they trying to do by drawing membership to themselves if they are no better than the group others are in?

Maybe I'm too idealistic but that's my humble opinion.

Quote:

Ryck wrote:

No, not my intention to make you look bad. I regret that my words worked out that way. But I did get the sense that you were bashing organized religion and had your attention turned toward the JWs even when you didn't specifically name them all that often. As if they embodied all that was wrong of organized religion and served as the example.

Quote:

Ryck wrote:

Like you said in the end, everyone has to have their own spiritual walk with God. But what about those who don't care to do it alone but in an organized structured way with the help of a leader?

Are we talking about the same JWs who dutifully pays all their taxes, don't lie, don't cheat, obeys all laws, personally very honest and trustworthy, thrifty, don't have sex before marriage, refuse to bear arms to kill a human being for any reason, and always greet you with a smile either at the door or out in the street no matter how mean you are to them? And all this fine behavior is not what they got from the Bible but to the leadership of an "authoritarian and controlling" religious organization making them act this way?

Quote:

Ryck wrote:

I don't even know who the "dictator" of the JWs were. I had to go to wikipedia for that information. I guess the "President" of the JWs is the "dictator"? I don't read their newspaper that often but from what I remember I never saw an article attributed to him anywhere. I didn't get the sense that any of the articles are full of indoctrination and propaganda of a single man. An invisible oppresive dictator??? Go figure!

I don't get it, Zathrus. Would you like to explain yourself further?

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 3:56 am Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Ryck wrote:

I don't get it, Zathrus. Would you like to explain yourself further?

Read the "Truth or Present TRuth?" thread in this forum. It is the clearest example of what I'm talking about that I've seen in a long time.

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002

Posts: 1017

Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Zathrus wrote:

Ryck wrote:

I don't get it, Zathrus. Would you like to explain yourself further?

Read the "Truth or Present TRuth?" thread in this forum. It is the clearest example of what I'm talking about that I've seen in a long time.

Doesn't answer the dictatorship assertion you raised nor the problem I'm having with it.

Dust
Growing Lion

Joined: 10 Sep 2004

Posts: 881

Location: All over the western U.S.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:05 am Post subject:

TBax wrote:

Truthfully I didn't read your entire post.

You should read it, and then disregard any evidence and/or rational that would suggest JW's are not in the truth.

Dust
Growing Lion

Joined: 10 Sep 2004

Posts: 881

Location: All over the western U.S.

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:12 am Post subject:

Ryck wrote:

Doesn't answer the dictatorship assertion you raised nor the problem I'm having with it.

For crying out loud.....it's an analogy.

TBax
King of the Jungle

Joined: 24 Oct 2005

Posts: 1940

Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:53 pm Post subject:

Dust,

Dust wrote:

You should read it, and then disregard any evidence and/or rational that would suggest JW's are not in the truth.

Zathrus couldn't verify his original premise regarding "authoritarian religious groups" without condemning the first certury christians as well. Embarassed

He disqualified his credibility from the start. I don't need to go point for point when his premise is bogus. Cool

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:08 am Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Ryck wrote:

I don't even know who the "dictator" of the JWs were. I had to go to wikipedia for that information. I guess the "President" of the JWs is the "dictator"?

Are you under the impression I was speaking of one man?
Would it have been clearer if I'd said "dictatorial leadership"?

Zathrus
King Kong

Joined: 28 Aug 2002

Posts: 2207

Location: WI USA

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 11:24 am Post subject:

TBax, are you talking about this?

TBax wrote:

Zathrus wrote:

TBax wrote:

...lumping God's true organization in with all the false.

If it walks like an unclean bird and smells like an unclean bird...

I condemn the practice of controlling and manipulating people.

Like the first century Christians???

It is you who equated the 1st century church with one of today's controlling and abusive religous groups, not me. It's still there for everyone to read. That's actually quite telling.

You haven't proven anything here, except that you're able to make absurd arguments when you feel you have to be right about something.

I wasn't even going to respond because this is just silly. Well, and it stands on its own as a testimony of what the Witnesses think the early church was like. Laughing

Ryck
Lion King

Joined: 05 Dec 2002

Posts: 1017

Posted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 6:42 pm Post subject: Re: True Christianity vs what is plainly taught in scripture

Zathrus wrote:

Ryck wrote:

I don't even know who the "dictator" of the JWs were. I had to go to wikipedia for that information. I guess the "President" of the JWs is the "dictator"?

Are you under the impression I was speaking of one man?
Would it have been clearer if I'd said "dictatorial leadership"?

What's next with you? When you make statements I'm supposed to assume you are not being clear on purpose???

Oh, heavens, go figure! Rolling Eyes

Your words: "There is a big difference between walking with others and walking under the oppresion of a dictator."

If you say "dictator" then I take from that you mean the undisputed leader of the JWs. The top official of the JWs is the President of the JWs. If he is the dictator you speak about he sure doesn't act as one would expect for a dictator. I couldn't even find his picture! How is he dictating the JWs????? Rolling Eyes

That's why I asked you to explain and address my problems I'm having with your claim. First you redirected me to a folder that has zero bearing. So that was a waste of my time. Then now you turn it around as if it is my fault for taking you verbatim because didn't mean what you said and that I should have understood what you didn't mean.

Yikes!

Display posts from previous:

	Bible-Discussion.com Forum Index -> Jehovah's Witness	All times are GMT - 8 Hours Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2