Did God forsake Jesus on the cross??

Zathrus

Carried over from a discussion between JimD and myself from the "Is Jesus YHWH?" thread.

I must admit my views on this matter are pretty mainstream, unlike my views in other areas.

Last night, 2 Cor 5:21 came to mind.
2 Corinthians 5:21

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

It was necessary for the Father to abandon his Son as Christ suffered the penalty for our sins on the cross. That is the penalty for sin...alienation from God. And Jesus suffered that penalty on our behalf.

How he was abandoned, I would say, is that he was abandoned to actually die as our sin-bearer. The abandonment led to and termnated with his death and the Father's receiving of our Lord's spirit (Luke 23:46).

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

I believe the lesson we can receive from this is that God may also allow us to suffer and or die but he will not totally abandon us, we may feel like he has but we can rest assured he has not, PRAISE GOD!

GospelCompilation · Posted: Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:43 pm Post subject: Where Do We Get This Idea?

If my wife and I might join in the conversation for a moment...

Someone above mentioned that "it was necessary for the Father to abandon his Son as Christ suffered the penalty for our sins on the cross. That is the penalty for sin...alienation from God."

Please indulge us as we ask a few questions:

1st) How is it possible to suffer alienation from an omnipresent God? That would seem to run contrary to both common sense and Scripture. If God is everywhere at the same time, then where can we go to escape His presence?

2nd) If "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself," then how could (or why would) God stop being "in Christ" while He dying hung on the cross? It doesn't seem very likely that God would suddenly "leave Him" at that moment, unless we're suggesting that God will abandon us too at the very moment we need Him most.

3rd) What makes us think that God cannot be in the presence of sin? If that were the case, then we could not have His holy Spirit within us until we are perfectly sinless; that is, unless we view the holy Spirit as something different than (and inferior to) God Himself.

My wife and I hear people say these sorts of things all the time - especially that "God cannot be in the presence of sin." But we've not found that illustrated or defined anywhere in Scripture. Can anyone help us out?

Oh... and one last question:

4th) Is it possible that Jesus did not feel forsaken at all, and was merely shouting to the people, "Please turn in your Bibles with Me to Psalm 22"? After all, at that time, the Old Testament did not have chapter or verse numbers. He couldn't cry out, "Please turn in your Bibles with Me to Psalm 22" because there was no such thing as "Psalm 22." If I understand correctly, the ancient Jews memorized passages by the first verse of the passage. And the first verse of that passage (what I call the Crucifixion Passage) just happens to be, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Perhaps Jesus was not saying He felt forsaken at all, but that He wanted everyone to turn to that particular passage in Scripture, so they might understand what was happening.

Does that make sense?

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

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JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

More thoughts on this topic:
I could possibly agree that Jesus in his humanity (might) have temporarily felt forsaken, (thinking about when he ask God to let this cup pass from him,) or even the idea that (maybe) God in a way (when his spirit leaves our body) forsakes Jesus and us physically when he allows us to die physically. But like you say GC, I cannot believe that God would ever forsake spiritually, even for a moment, anyone who was trusting in him. Still an extremely comforting thought!

GospelCompilation · Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2008 11:38 am Post subject: God Cannot Lie

Titus 1:2 tells us that "God cannot lie." I believe that statement. I believe that God will always tell us the truth - even though sometimes we might misunderstand what He means. But, I think in the case of whether or not Christ felt forsaken on the cross (and, by extension, whether or not God will forsake us at our direst time of need)... we should probably listen to what God's Word has said over and over again concerning Him:

Deuteronomy 4:31: "The LORD your God is a merciful God, He will not forsake you."

Deuteronomy 31:6: "Be strong and of good courage, do not fear nor be afraid of them; for the LORD your God, He is the One who goes with you. He will not leave you nor forsake you."

Joshua 1:5: "As I was with Moses, so I will be with you. I will not leave you nor forsake you."

I Samuel 12:22: "For the LORD will not forsake His people, for His great name’s sake, because it has pleased the LORD to make you His people."

I Kings 6:13: "I will dwell among the children of Israel, and will not forsake My people."

Ezra 9:9: "For we were slaves. Yet our God did not forsake us in our bondage; but He extended mercy to us in the sight of the kings of Persia."

Nehemiah 9:19, 31: "Yet in Your manifold mercies You did not forsake them in the wilderness. The pillar of the cloud did not depart from them by day, to lead them on the road; nor the pillar of fire by night, to show them light, and the way they should go. In Your great mercy, You did not utterly consume them nor forsake them; for You are God, gracious and merciful."

Psalm 9:10: "You, LORD, have not forsaken those who seek You."

Psalm 37:25, 28: "I have been young, and now am old;Yet I have not seen the righteous forsaken. For the LORD loves justice, and does not forsake His saints."

Isaiah 41:17 and 42:16: "The poor and needy seek water, but there is none, and their tongues fail for thirst. I, the LORD, will hear them; I, the God of Israel, will not forsake them. I will bring the blind by a way they did not know; I will lead them in paths they have not known. I will make darkness light before them, and crooked places straight. These things I will do for them, and not forsake them."

Jeremiah 51:5: "For Israel is not forsaken by their God, the LORD of hosts, in spite of the fact that their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel."

Matthew 28:20: "Lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age."

Is it possible for us to at least agree on this one point? Namely, that God will not forsake us in our direst time of need [why?] because He did not forsake Christ when He was hanging on the cross.

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

1st) How is it possible to suffer alienation from an omnipresent God? That would seem to run contrary to both common sense and Scripture. If God is everywhere at the same time, then where can we go to escape His presence?
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Answer: alienation doesn't mean escape from his presence. Two people can live under the same roof and be in one another's presence, but still be alienated. Scirpture is abundantly clear that God turns his back on sin, and cannot be in its presence. Common sense doesn't enter into what we believe; God's own statements are all that matter.

2nd) If "God was in Christ, reconciling the world to Himself," then how could (or why would) God stop being "in Christ" while He dying hung on the cross? It doesn't seem very likely that God would suddenly "leave Him" at that moment, unless we're suggesting that God will abandon us too at the very moment we need Him most.
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Answer: Christ didn't have God "in" him, he was himself God. All the fulness of God was already his. Fully God from all eternity (as John 1 tells us) who became fully human as well. When Paul says that God was in Christ reconcling the world to himself, he means that he was reconciling the world (who were his enemies at the time) in Christ, or by Christ. Christ was not a 3rd party called upon to pay for our sins; he was the offended party, God himself, giving his life as the atoninng sacrifice for the sins of the world.

3rd) What makes us think that God cannot be in the presence of sin? If that were the case, then we could not have His holy Spirit within us until we are perfectly sinless; that is, unless we view the holy Spirit as something different than (and inferior to) God Himself.
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Answer: Because the Bible tells us that he can't look upon sin. Hab 1:13; Prov. 15:9; 6:16-19; 8:13; 12:22. From the very beginning in the Garden, God taught that sin cannot exist in his presence without atonement. The sin offering in the Old Testament came into God's presence only long enough to be killed.

The reason he can deal with us, sinners though we may still be on occasion, is because he has clothed us with the righteousness of Christ and sees us as pardoned and already complete in Christ.

4th) Is it possible that Jesus did not feel forsaken at all, and was merely shouting to the people, "Please turn in your Bibles with Me to Psalm 22"? After all, at that time, the Old Testament did not have chapter or verse numbers. He couldn't cry out, "Please turn in your Bibles with Me to Psalm 22" because there was no such thing as "Psalm 22." If I understand correctly, the ancient Jews memorized passages by the first verse of the passage. And the first verse of that passage (what I call the Crucifixion Passage) just happens to be, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?" Perhaps Jesus was not saying He felt forsaken at all, but that He wanted everyone to turn to that particular passage in Scripture, so they might understand what was happening.
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Answer: I have no doubt that Jesus was intentionally quoting from Psalm 22. It is the only Psalm entirely devoted to predictions about the coming Messiah. But when he quoted it, he did so not merely to show he knew his Old Testament, but so that they really could understand that he was accomplishing right before their eyes what the Psalm predicted, including abandonment by his Father. It would be sheer acting if he took the words "Why have your forsaken me?" as his own but was not feeling any sense of being forsaken. Our Lord was not in the habit of putting on a show.

The Bible is clear that all who reject Christ's death on their behalf will be abandoned by God, "separated from the presence of the Lord" as Paul says in 2 Thess. 2. One of the reasons why those who trust in Christ's death on their behalf will not suffer such abandonment is because their Sin-bearer, their Passover Lamb, has already suffered it for them.

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 439

Don Fisher · Little Guppy Joined: 17 Jun 2008 Posts: 31

I don't know who your "reliable thinkers" are, but they are wrong. Check the Hebrew (if you know Hebrew). That will show you who is actually the confused one.

None of the verses have anything to do with God being blind; that is not the point. They do say something about his attitude toward sin.

Or, as 1 John tells us, God is light. In him is no darkness, at all. Man, in his natural condition, is in darkness. He is under the Prince of the kingdom of darkness (Col. 1:13). Darkness simply does not exist in the presence of light.

The Bible is very clear on this issue of God's attitude toward sin. There's nothing very deep or tricky about it. Basic stuff.

GospelCompilation · Posted: Sat Jun 21, 2008 6:02 am Post subject: Some Clear Examples

My wife reminded me this morning about some clear references in Scripture that seem to indicate that God has no problem being in the presence of sin. Here are a few:

1st) After Adam and Eve both sinned, God appeared in the garden, walking in the cool of the evening, expecting to fellowship with them. And, once He found them, He stood before them, face to face, speaking with them about what happened. There was no condemnation in His voice, and it was only after the couple refused to acknowledge their sin that He instituted animal sacrifice. So, it appears as if God had no problem being in the presence of sin in the garden of Eden.

2nd) When God appeared to Moses in the burning bush, it was required that Moses take off his shoes, because the ground on which he stood was holy ground. Why? Obviously, because God was present. At another time, God placed Moses in the cleft of a rock, covered him with His hand, and passed before him. The LORD God had to be pretty close in proximity to do such a feat. And, I'm pretty sure in both cases, Moses was not a sinless human being. So, it appears as if God had no problem being in the presence of sin with Moses.

3rd) And, of course, if one accepts that "God was in Christ," then it only stands to reason that, as Jesus walked among the people of the world, He was surrounded on all sides by sin and sinners alike. And, if God were not able to be in the presence of sin, then He could not have been in Christ, who was constantly in the presence of sin. Which, then brings me to a fourth point...

4th) If God is holy, and God is Spirit, then one can easily understand that God is the holy Spirit. And the holy Spirit does not wait until we're sinless before He enters our hearts. No, He comes to us when we are steeped in sin, in order to convict us of that sin. Without the holy Spirit, we would not be able to come to Christ at all. So, it is imperative that God be in the presence of sin.

And 5th), if God cannot be in the presence of sin, then the whole world would be off limits to God, then He would no longer be omnipresent nor would He be able to conduct a personal relationship with anyone on the planet.

I could offer plenty of other Scriptural evidence to show that God has often stood in the presence of sin. Satan was still in heaven when he sinned... so, did God suddenly leave heaven, because He couldn't be in the presence of sin? Nope. He stayed right there, in the presence of Satan's sin. And, furthermore... long after Satan had sinned, he continued to go before God in heaven, and God didn't suddenly flee every time he showed up.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT?

I believe it's important to understand that God can be in the presence of sin, because then we can know for sure that God will not abandon us every time we "miss the mark."

So, the best question we can ask at this point of those who believe the opposite is:

Why is it important for us to believe that God cannot be in the presence of sin? What is the benefit of holding to such a belief? And, please, try to use clear Scriptural references, if you will.

Thank you!

Silver Surfer