HOLY SPIRIT NOT GIVEN YET?

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 437

Nu 27:15 Then Moses spoke to the LORD, saying,
16 "May the LORD, the God of the spirits of all flesh, appoint a man over the congregation,
17 who will go out and come in before them, and who will lead them out and bring them in, so that the congregation of the LORD will not be like sheep which have no shepherd."
18 So the LORD said to Moses, "Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the Spirit, and lay your hand on him;
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Ps 51:6 Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place.
7 Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow.
8 Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice.
9 Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity.
10 Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
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John Calvin Quote:
For the Holy Spirit was not yet given. We know that
the Spirit is eternal; but the Evangelist declares that, so
long as Christ dwelt in the world in the form of a
servant, that grace of the Spirit, which was poured out on
men after the resurrection of Christ, had not been openly
manifested. And, indeed, he speaks comparatively, in the
same manner as when the New Testament is compared to the
Old. God promises his Spirit to his elect and believers,
as if he had never given him to the Fathers. At that
very time, the disciples had undoubtedly received the
Spirit; for whence comes faith but from
the Spirit? The Evangelist, therefore, does not
affirm that the grace of the Spirit was not offered and
given to believers before the death of Christ, but
that it was not yet so bright and illustrious as it would
afterwards become.

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Albert Barnes Quote:
For the Holy Ghost was not yet given. Was not given in such full and large measures as should be after Jesus had ascended to heaven. Certain measures of the influences of the Spirit had been always given in the conversion and sanctification of the ancient saints and prophets; but that abundant and full effusion which the apostles were permitted afterward to behold had not yet been given.
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Robertson Quote:
For the Spirit was not yet given (oupw gar hn pneuma). No verb for "given" in the Greek. The reference is not to the existence of the Spirit, but to the special activity of the Spirit. This same use of eimi like pareimi (to be present) appears in #Ac 19:2 of the Spirit’s activity. John, writing at the close of the century, inserts this comment and interpretation of the language of Jesus as an allusion to the coming of the Holy Spirit at pentecost (the Promise of the Father).
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The Holy Spirit is not a person, neither is God, or Jesus, only when Jesus was on the earth was He a person, they are three distinctions or names for the same Spirit, God. When the Old Testament speaks of the Spirit of the Lord, you could insert, God, Jesus, Holy Spirit, and get the same meaning. Ditto in the New Testament.
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1Pe 1:10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries,
11 seeking to know what person or time (the Spirit of Christ within them) was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

If you believe, as I do, that the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, then you can see (the Spirit of Christ within them) v11, shows the Holy Spirit did indeed indwell
the faithful in the Old Testament.
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Ps 51:10 Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
11 Do not cast me away from Your presence And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
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of Moses. Where is He who brought them up out of the sea with the shepherds of His flock? Where is He who put His Holy Spirit in the midst of them,
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Ne 9:20 "You gave Your good Spirit to instruct them, Your manna You did not withhold from their mouth, And You gave them water for their thirst.
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Eze 36:27 "I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.
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Lu 2:25 And there was a man in Jerusalem whose name was Simeon; and this man was righteous and devout, looking for the consolation of Israel; and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
26 And it had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not see death before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
27 And he came in the Spirit into the temple; and when the parents brought in the child Jesus, to carry out for Him the custom of the Law,
28 then he took Him into his arms, and blessed God, and said,
29 "Now Lord, You are releasing Your bond-servant to depart in peace, According to Your word;
30 For my eyes have seen Your salvation,
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eleven · Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:34 am Post subject:

Can you be a bit more specific? Laughing

45degreeN · Posted: Wed Apr 02, 2008 9:36 am Post subject:

John 15:

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

If John Calvin thought that the Holy Spirit had never been given until the day of Pentacost then John Calvin was wrong. As was stated there were those in the Old Testament that received the Holy Spirit long before pentacost.

Paul

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 508

JimD,
There you go again. Why do you insist that the Holy Spirit dwelt in man prior to Pentecost. That is a bad theology.

By saying that He dwelt in humanity before Pentecost then what you are saying, in essence, is that the Holy Spirit can dwell in unclean vessels. That just isn't the case. It took the shed blood of Christ to wash away your sins.

It also teaches that Jesus didn't have to die for our sins, again that just isn't the case.

Numbers 27 is referring to the spirit of man, not the Spirit of God. I noticed that you erroneously capitalized it as some Bible translators did and still do.

Jesus made it clear in John 14:17
That is the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it does not behold Him or know Him, but you know Him because He abides (dwell) with you and will be in you.

John Calvin was 100% on the money on that assessment.

Tretepp, Show me where the Holy Spirit, not the spirit of man, dwelt in humanity in the Old Testament.

This is taught in theology 101.

God bless you as you reconcile this error.

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

JB maybe that is the problem - your theology 101 is bad.

Psa 51:11 Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

David had the Spirit as well as the rest of the Prophets. Additionally, how can anyone be clean unless they are washed by the Holy Spirit?

Are you saying that Moses and the rest of the Prophets were no longer considered clean?

Paul

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 508

Trettep,
That text doesn't support the Holy Spirit with in a person but is with a person. Before you come after me on this one, get out your lexicon and look the the number of time the Holy Spirit comes upon a Prophet , Priest or King. Most if not all theologians agree with John Calvin on that subject.
Show me a verse in the Old Testament where the HOLY SPIRIT is in people. You can't. You know why. Because God cannot dwell in unclean vessels.

If you want to continue this debate, I will list 50+ Old Testament Verses where the Holy Spirit came upon the people in the Old Testament.

Seek truth and you will find it.

JimD · Rattlesnake Joined: 05 Nov 2007 Posts: 437

JB, It does not sound like you are reading John Calvin correctly, let alone the Bible

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6828 Location: USA

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177

What about this one?

1 Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Oops. See this was already posted in the OP.

trettep · Lion Joined: 24 Nov 2005 Posts: 910

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 508

Bobf
What version are you reading. The Greek word used in this text is eis. I already went to school on this one. Eis means moving towards. There is a chart for Greek prepositions. You should check it out. This word means moving towards the center but not yet entered. In essence, the Holy Spirit moved towards people in the Old Testament and not yet entered. That text doesn't say the Spirit of Christ which was in them.

Ya gotta tell me cause I gotsta know. Where did you get that verse?

Here are some that I checked. It isn't there. Not in the English and not in the Greek.

(KJV) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you:

(NKJV) Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you,

(NASB)As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that {would come} to you made careful searches and inquiries,

(RSV) The prophets who prophesied of the grace that was to be yours searched and inquired about this salvation;

Oh You mean verse 11.

Transliteration:
en {en}
Word Origin:
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between 1519 and 1537)
TDNT:
2:537,233
Part of Speech:
prep

BobF, Here is a list of the Greek word usages
Usage in the KJV: Note the Words by, with, among, at, through.

by 141, with 134, among 117, at 112, on 46, through

TDNT - Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
TWOT - Theological Word Book of the Old Testament

Unfortunately Bob, this word has been used in many different manners. The point still remains, How does God dwell in unclean vessels?

Numbers (11:17) (11:25) (11:26) (24:2)
Judges (3:10) (6:34) (11:29) (14:6)

This is just a few texts that supports the work of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament. There are many many more.

I hope this helps.

God bless

JB · Young Wolf Joined: 16 Feb 2008 Posts: 508

Bobf,
Do you agree that God cannot come into the presences of sin or in contact with sin? Adam was kicked out of the Garden and away from the presence of God because of sin.

Do you agree that the Old Testament sacrifices were insufficient? Hebrews 9:4 for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take sin away.

The importance of the death of Christ was for His blood to be shed for our sins. Revelations 1:5 to Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood.

Hebrews 9:22 with out the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sin.

Ephesians 1:7 In Him we have the redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His Grace.

Because of His blood, He who was once far away can now draw close to us. Ephesians 2:13.

I am a firm believer that the Holy Spirit came upon Old Testament people. Not in. After we are forgiven and our slate is made clean then we can enter into the holy of holies. As a matter of fact, the veil in the temple was cut asunder after Jesus dies and after His blood was shed, thus making our entrance into the presence of God possible. (Matthew 27:51)

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177

bobf · Alley Cat Joined: 17 Nov 2007 Posts: 177