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Persistent Love



 
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pastor2022
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:44 am    Post subject: Persistent Love Reply with quote

Persistent Love
The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you
with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness
I have drawn you."

Jeremiah 31:3

Because He Loves us with a persistent love, God will not give up on us without having pursued us to the very end. If we think that He invites us to accept His rule but is indifferent as to whether we do that or not, then we have read little of what the Scriptures say of His love. We never refuse our God without breaking His heart, and in the end, that is what sin always comes down to: a refusal to accept God's love. When we say no to Him, we are stubbornly saying no to the better things that His love is longing to give us. We are running away from our greatest good!

Mark it well, however: Although it is a long time, it is not forever that God will pursue us with His love. The patience of God is greater than any mortal patience, but eventually it will come to an end. Having been given the freedom of our will, we may continue to refuse Him for a while. Yet if we do so long enough, the time will come when the pursuit is over and the only thing left is awesome judgment. Weeping over Jerusalem, Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" (Matthew 23:37-39).

If we still live, however, then God still pursues us because we mean so much to Him. The "Hound of Heaven" will not easily be thrown off our trail. And those who have finally relented and let themselves be overtaken by His love find that their joy is tinged by only one real regret, and that is that they did not let themselves be loved sooner. Francis Thompson, in his remarkable poem, has well guessed what our Lord will say at last to those who have found Him: "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest, / I am He whom thou seekest! / Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest me."
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System



Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 4189


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Persistent Love Reply with quote

pastor2022 wrote:
Persistent Love
The Lord has appeared of old to me, saying: "Yes, I have loved you
with an everlasting love; therefore with lovingkindness
I have drawn you."

Jeremiah 31:3

Because He Loves us with a persistent love, God will not give up on us without having pursued us to the very end. If we think that He invites us to accept His rule but is indifferent as to whether we do that or not, then we have read little of what the Scriptures say of His love. We never refuse our God without breaking His heart, and in the end, that is what sin always comes down to: a refusal to accept God's love. When we say no to Him, we are stubbornly saying no to the better things that His love is longing to give us. We are running away from our greatest good!

Mark it well, however: Although it is a long time, it is not forever that God will pursue us with His love. The patience of God is greater than any mortal patience, but eventually it will come to an end. Having been given the freedom of our will, we may continue to refuse Him for a while. Yet if we do so long enough, the time will come when the pursuit is over and the only thing left is awesome judgment. Weeping over Jerusalem, Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! See! Your house is left to you desolate; for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'" (Matthew 23:37-39).

If we still live, however, then God still pursues us because we mean so much to Him. The "Hound of Heaven" will not easily be thrown off our trail. And those who have finally relented and let themselves be overtaken by His love find that their joy is tinged by only one real regret, and that is that they did not let themselves be loved sooner. Francis Thompson, in his remarkable poem, has well guessed what our Lord will say at last to those who have found Him: "Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest, / I am He whom thou seekest! / Thou dravest love from thee, who dravest me."


Amazing!
I was at the first sentence of para 2, and I immed thot of Hound of Heaven!
And there it is!

Simply superb, P2022!

But, there is no end to The relentless and forever pursuit of Love and there is NO resisting His Irresistible Love when He wants ME or wants YOU or wants WHOEVER!
What AF did not know in that great poem is that :

Ah, fondest, blindest, weakest,
I am He whom thou seekest!
Thou dravest ME from thee,
who dravest LOVE,
AND YOU ONLY DROVE LOVE AND ME FROM THEE BECAUSE I WANTED YOU TO DRIVE LOVE FROM THEE
SO I COULD TEST WITH MY UNFAIR P2022'S LOVE OR ATOZ' LOVE OR WHOEVER'S FOR ME!!
Matt 25:35-45.
See?

Just ask saul-paul!smile
Proverbs 21
1The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water[as a man can with just his feet stamp out a path for the water to flow in his garden!]:
he turneth it whithersoever he will.
As in exodus 4 - 12: God cd have softened or hardened Pharaoh's heart at will and did make His Choice at that time!!
So the opposite choice to soften is even more easy!
That's how easy it is!


God can convert us in no time flat when He is ready!
And when he is NOT ready to convert whoever, even whoever being ready is of NO avail!
See Exodus 4:21.

P2022, talk to me!smile

In God's Immovebale & Irresistible Love in the face of which we are pushovers and easily conquered,
atoz
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pastor2022
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006

Posts: 690


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

atoz...thanks for the kind and loving words. I agree that God's love is limitless beyond anything that we can measure. I guess where I failed in my words was that some do keep rejecting God's love in their lives even when God does keep calling them. I have seen it in my own experience in the ministry and in my own family. I do know of God's call upon our lives but I also recognize and believe that as it says in Genesis 6:3 (GW) Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not struggle with humans forever, because they are flesh and blood. They will live 120 years" there can come a time when God will say enough. When is that time? I don't know or would ever say. Is it death humanly speaking or at some point when a person so hardens their heart? I just don't know.

I know that (I think?) that you believe in US. I don't, but that's not what I was trying to get across in this post. I was trying to get across that God's love is persistent and unfathomable. Dear Atoz, you are, to me, a friend and I have the utmost respect and love for you. May God's richest blessings be upon you.
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System



Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 4189


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pastor2022 wrote:
atoz...thanks for the kind and loving words. I agree that God's love is limitless beyond anything that we can measure. I guess where I failed in my words was that some do keep rejecting God's love in their lives even when God does keep calling them. I have seen it in my own experience in the ministry and in my own family. I do know of God's call upon our lives but I also recognize and believe that as it says in Genesis 6:3 (GW) Then the Lord said, “My Spirit will not struggle with humans forever, because they are flesh and blood. They will live 120 years" there can come a time when God will say enough. When is that time? I don't know or would ever say. Is it death humanly speaking or at some point when a person so hardens their heart? I just don't know.

I know that (I think?) that you believe in US. I don't, but that's not what I was trying to get across in this post. I was trying to get across that God's love is persistent and unfathomable. Dear Atoz, you are, to me, a friend and I have the utmost respect and love for you. May God's richest blessings be upon you.


P2022!

THose were such loving words!
Thanks!

P2022, I did not even think of U.S. until you mentioned it!
But that US beleif in NO big thing to me!
Really!
It only came up when Trettep first came on here and asked who beleived in it, and I said me---and then, uh oh! I realsied how BIG others viewed it as an idea as wrong! But by then I had been 'smeared' with it!smile
I only want to smeared with Love!smile

But U.S> is NOT what God emphasizes: God emphasizes LOVE for all, and then as along as we focus on that Love, that Love what will bring people to
either beleive in US IN LOVE of those who don't,
OR
to in Love to NOT beleive in it BUT out of Love for those who do beleive in it!

To me, it is NOT a primary doctrine: Love is! and Love is the ONLY doctrine!

Now: I used to beleive in the helling or extermination of the bad guys{ false prophet, beast, satan, etc.

And then I found out about Love in attitude or in spirit of mind like Phil 2:5.

Then when I started learning more and more about Love, I still beleived in the death of the bad guys. But it was NOT my focus.

Then when i really began to see how LOVE was central to God in EVERYTING, then my beleif in the extermination of the wicked just fell away: it was not a conscious thing nor BIG thing: it just made no more sense---but no big deal. I had or have no problem with those who do NOT beleive in it.

Then when over the years, as I looked back and looked around, I saw and have seen that it was and is always a hateful attitude that WAS at the bottom of all my beliefs right or wrong!!!

And guess what?
This is what I've found here and every where else i have been with others:
hardly any one does anything, without hating those who do it any other way and/or hating the other ways!

And here is the thing: all we have to do is ASK them!smile
That's what I do!
That's why I ask!

So that is how I have come to emphsize Love so much.

But I am NOT against those whoa re against US!
It's like with creationists and evolutionists!
Same thing.
God cd decide or cd have decided to NOT save all: but he wd have to be loving those that were not saved for any reason!
BUT, if he had to love them anyway, why wd he not save them in the first palce?
see?
So the default position when based on Love, will TEND to be all are and will be saved!

It's like divorce:
If I can divorce BUT I must love the one I am divorcing, so i wd divorce in Love,
then why divorce in the first place?
see?
Why not let's work it out---in Love?

Now divorce does happen and does work---but all those divorced people will tend to end up in heaven with God!

So too God cd decide to kill so many or will let so many die permanently--but he has to do it in Love!
So why wd he not, like you wd a little baby, force IN LOVE the baby to eat, even tho the bay cries and twists and turns and spits, so that that very baby will kss your feet and the hands that forced it to do what it did not wnat to do when it did NOT know what it was doing so that it now enjoys the fruits that it was made to enjoy!?see?
So As THE Parent of parents, as the POP, smile
God wd tend to do the same thing!

But He cd decide that some will be lost!
He cd decide to NOT pursue that lost sheep as in Gen 6!
As long as those who beleive that believe so in Love of those who spat in God's face repeatedly and refused to repent---I know that it is a heartfelt beleif with NO prejudice or malice behind it!
smile

Then they wd feel exactly towards USers as I feel towards them and as you feel towards me!
see?
No big thing: as long as we love each other, cool in whatever you believe. Rom 14.

The only problem with either is ANY hatred or disrespect for those who beleive the opposite.

And like creationists and evolutionists,
USers and NON-USers do NOT tend to PUT first the LOVE in heart and attitude that GOd says we are to put first---so endless arguments and disagreements WITH DISAGREEABLENESS re-sults---there being very little of the Agreement to LOVE those we agree with and disagree with UPfront---so that even if we disagree we still lvoe and respect each other!

And IF that is our position, IF our position is L&R, then it wd automatically be
Think and let think,
live and let live,
beleive and let beleive!
story done!

Hope that helps you to undersatnd me!
Thanx again for your kind words!
They are reciproacted as much and hopefully even more!smile
May God's richest blessings be upon you and yours!

with The Comprehensiveness of Everlasting Love and R for all, which Love allows all other beleifs and disbeleifs and non-beliefs to flourish and be integrated,
atoz,
your friend forever, Jer 31:3.
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pastor2022
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006

Posts: 690


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 1:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for explaining how and what you believe more clearly to me. I really don't think we're that far apart! I don't HATE anyone or anything (except liver and okra! Laughing of course, you would say that to hate is to love and to love is to hate Very Happy ). I have counseled couples before in the matter of divorce and have had one spouse say something like, "Well, I don't love him/her anymore" or "I fell out of love with him/her." I tell them that Jesus said we were to love our enemies and if they can't love the other person as their spouse/helpmeet any longer then they are to start loving them as their enemy just as Jesus said to do with all things Jesus said was to accompany such love. When I can get them to do that, I am able to help them salvage their marriage and go on to have a stronger marriage. I have learned over the years that people don't "fall out of love," they just place their love elsewhere.

Thank you for your words and your friendship. God's grace and mercy be abundant to you.
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System



Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 4189


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

pastor2022 wrote:
Thanks for explaining how and what you believe more clearly to me. I really don't think we're that far apart! I don't HATE anyone or anything (except liver and okra! Laughing of course, you would say that to hate is to love and to love is to hate Very Happy ). I have counseled couples before in the matter of divorce and have had one spouse say something like, "Well, I don't love him/her anymore" or "I fell out of love with him/her." I tell them that Jesus said we were to love our enemies and if they can't love the other person as their spouse/helpmeet any longer then they are to start loving them as their enemy just as Jesus said to do with all things Jesus said was to accompany such love. When I can get them to do that, I am able to help them salvage their marriage and go on to have a stronger marriage. I have learned over the years that people don't "fall out of love," they just place their love elsewhere.

Thank you for your words and your friendship. God's grace and mercy be abundant to you.


P2022!

What you said is so good and exactly right!

People do not stop loving or being in Love or fall entirely out of Love, they just switch to the Hate or being in Hate that was always there all along!
So the goal is to get them to repent of hating themselves as any word---so they wd auto love the other person AS themselves!!!

P2022,
What do think vanity is: self-Love or self-Hate?

Commentary:
If loving myself is a sin,
how can I get my wife to love who I hate: me?

If loving myself is a sin, why shd it BE a sin for my wife to hate who I hate: myself?
see?

If loving me is vanity, why shd it NOT be righteous for my wife to hate who i hate: myself?

See?

So in marriages, we actually have an insane situation especially in churches:

I am trying to love my wife who hates herself since loving herself is vanity.

My wife is trying to get me to love HER who she is supposed to hate!

I am trying to get her to love me who i hate since it is a sin of vanity to love me.

And my wife is trying to love me who hates myself since it is a sin of vanity for me to lvoe myself!

Result: the NUMBER ONE probelm in church IS MARRIAGE+ FAMILY PROBLEMS!!!!

Solution: each person repents of hating self as any words that God loves person as!


When it comes of okra, I used to especially hate it until in my 30's until I found out I shd NOT hate it and did NOT have to hate it to NOT eat it!smile
I cd love it and NOT eat it--just as a love my car but don't eat it!smile
see?
P2022, it applies to all words!
It is a sin to hate any food or word that God made which is all words and foods.
It is NO sin to IN LOVE --- NOT eat any food!
qed!smile

So rather than say:
I don't care if you like it or not, you have to eat it---to your kids,--which meant I wd not eat it even when hungry!!!!! and I was always in THE HATEFUL ATTITUDE when NOT eating a food i hated! and hating my parents for giving me the foods i hated---
of course!
sigh

you say:
I don't care if you eat it or not, you have to love it!
Then when they get hungry enough, they WILL eat IN LOVE what they already love!!!!!!!
and most of all, they are already always in the right attitude of Love & Respect whether eating ot not!!!!!!

There is NO reason to hate anyone or anything--except we were MIStaught to do so!

The sin we are to hate is: the sin of hating any words.
This is based on Matthew 5:43-48. 12:34-37

If God loves me as good and bad,
my first bad is to hate me as bad: my 1st bad is my attitude!!!!!!!
hope that helps!
Please use me up!smile
Ask any questions!

can I ask you a question?

This will or wd revolutionize your church if you preached it!smile Because NOW you are stepping on the toes of people's hearts!!!!!!!!!smile

Thanx for talking to me!
I appreciate it!

with all Love and r,
atoz
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pastor2022
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Joined: 07 Dec 2006

Posts: 690


PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 3:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You have hit on something that I have dealt with for many years in my counseling and pastoral ministry. The perceived contradiction of loving oneself and hating oneself that people have has caused numerous problems for so many people. One basic problem that so many people has is that they are conditioned to conditional love and acceptance. That is, they have, rightly and wrongly, perceived love and acceptance as being conditional upon performance. So, they have transferred that perception to themselves, others and ultimately to God. For "self-love" not to be narcissitic or destructive to self or others, it must be shown how to be truly love that is expressed not only to self but to others and to God. Too often, I find people who have "low self-esteem" striving to "prove" themselves to others, to God and to themselves for approval and love and acceptance. Now it's true, God is in the business of changing us into His image and perfecting us in the image of His dear Son. With that said, He accepts us and loves us just as we are. If He does, then we should love ourselves and others and Him with the same unconditional love and acceptance.

Can you only imagine the fundamental change that could occur if we could grasp this most foundational truth of God's unchanging, unconditional love and acceptance? That we don't have to "perform" a certain way for God to accept us or love us?

1 John 4:10 (KJV) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

God bless.
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System



Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 4189


PostPosted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pastor2022 wrote:
You have hit on something that I have dealt with for many years in my counseling and pastoral ministry. The perceived contradiction of loving oneself and hating oneself that people have has caused numerous problems for so many people. One basic problem that so many people has is that they are conditioned to conditional love and acceptance. That is, they have, rightly and wrongly, perceived love and acceptance as being conditional upon performance. So, they have transferred that perception to themselves, others and ultimately to God. For "self-love" not to be narcissitic or destructive to self or others, it must be shown how to be truly love that is expressed not only to self but to others and to God. Too often, I find people who have "low self-esteem" striving to "prove" themselves to others, to God and to themselves for approval and love and acceptance. Now it's true, God is in the business of changing us into His image and perfecting us in the image of His dear Son. With that said, He accepts us and loves us just as we are. If He does, then we should love ourselves and others and Him with the same unconditional love and acceptance.

Can you only imagine the fundamental change that could occur if we could grasp this most foundational truth of God's unchanging, unconditional love and acceptance? That we don't have to "perform" a certain way for God to accept us or love us?

1 John 4:10 (KJV) Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

God bless.


Just saw this, P2022!

Great!
Clue: Self-Love is never what narcissistic means!
It is self-Hate that is the ONLY problem!

Explanation:
Since Love is the Eternal IOU, Rom 13:8
I can NOT love me enough nor you enough nor God enough, nor can God or any others love me enough.

So the first sin is Hate of myself as any word.

Example:
Since I have to love me as accepted and as unaccepted,
my sin is Self-Hate as unacepted.

I have to lvoe me as highly esteemed and as lowly esteemed.
Therefore, my sin is self-hate as low or as lowly esteemed.

I have to lvoe me as rich and poor.
My sin is self-hate as poor!

I have to lvoe me as performing and as unperforming.
My sin is self-hate as unperforming and underperforming and as with non-performance.

I have to lvoe me as smoking and as nonsmoking.
My sin is self-hate as smoker: Smoking myself up with the Incense of Hate is why I began to smoke in the first place.

I have to love me as clean and as dirty.
My sin is self-hate as dirty---which is why I have a dirty attitude--even when clean!

So no matter what the situation, Phil 4:11-13
my sin is always self-hate as some word,
and
the solution is always repentance of my self-Hate for myself as any word and commitment to to loving myself as God loves me: self-Love as the words I presently hate.
acts 2:38. Mt 22:36-40. 5:43-48. 7:12. John 15:9. Phil 4:11-13. 1 John 2:9-11. 3:15. 4:7-8, 16-21.
qed.

U can preach those verses for the next 10 years and never run out of material!

with Love and R,
atoz

By the way, have you perused all the threads?
Hate of self as cartain words is evident all over the place.
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