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Who should we believe?


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Craig2uguys
Hamster



Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Posts: 87
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:13 pm    Post subject: Who should we believe? Reply with quote
Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System



Joined: 28 Jun 2007

Posts: 4189
PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Re: Who should we believe? Reply with quote
Craig2uguys wrote:
Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?


We shd first love both of them unconditionally as trusted and as distrusted,
so that we love both the one and the other,
as in Matt 5:44-45, 48,
and NOT love the one and hate the other
NOR love the other and hate the one as in Mt 6:24..

Then if we trust either,
that trust wd be in Love,
then we verify in Love.

Then if we distrust either,
that distrust wd still be in Love,
then we verify in Love.

In the Trust of Love that is the Coin of God's Mint & Realm,
atoz
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towshab
Labrador



Joined: 23 Oct 2007
Posts: 312
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2007 2:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Who should we believe? Reply with quote
Craig2uguys wrote:
Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?


Hey C2,

Why would you ask such a question? Read the bible for yourself and then look to others when your need understanding. Once you read what they have to say, go back and read IN CONTEXT and see if they really have a clue.

Both of the above are humans just like you. What makes them right or wrong?
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Wed Dec 26, 2007 10:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Going to any man as your source of Biblical doctrine, is still not going to the Bible.

If every man is a sinner, if every man has an imperfect mind [not fully renewed to God's Word], then everyone of us will have some portion of man-made doctrine within us.

None of us can be viewed as a solid source of God's Word.

I am not 'The Word', nor are you.

I do listen to other men teaching, though I do not hold to any one of them exclusively as therein lies folly. Because you begin to weight that one man's doctrine more than another's, and while that man's doctrine may be closer to the Truth, it is still not the Truth.

Knowing that all men's doctrine will have some error within it, we must become 'workmen of The Word' ourselves.

Pray, study and listen.
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Thaddaeus
Tadpole



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
galen,

Quote:
Knowing that all men's doctrine will have some error within it, we must become 'workmen of The Word' ourselves.
Which is circular since we are men and have error.
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2007 7:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thaddaeus wrote:
galen,

Quote:
Knowing that all men's doctrine will have some error within it, we must become 'workmen of The Word' ourselves.
Which is circular since we are men and have error.


No not at all.

We can study the Bible, and God can work within us.

Or we can study what men have to say about the Bible.

These are two entirely different things.
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Thaddaeus
Tadpole



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
galen,

Quote:
No not at all.

We can study the Bible, and God can work within us.

Or we can study what men have to say about the Bible.

These are two entirely different things.


So, outside of yourself, the only person the Holy Spirit works with is you. If all the others state that they were also led by the Holy Spirit, who are you to judge that they were not and that you have His leading and you are alone correct?
Could you explain why we have possibly more than 20000 denominations today, all saying what you just stated?
Is the Gospel universal, or individual?
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Silver Surfer
King Kong



Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2712

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 10:55 am    Post subject: Re: Who should we believe? Reply with quote
Craig2uguys wrote:
Should we believe John MacArthur or should we believe Charles Ryrie? Or should we not believe either one of them?
The Bible test ...as to whom to believe is found in Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

I know of John MacArthur.
He is against God's Law, therefore I, myself, would NOT believe him.

I don't know of the other guy, but it is an easy way to test him.
Simply ask him if he understands this Bible verse, as it applies to todays Christian......

20:20 And hallow my (7th day) sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
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Thaddaeus
Tadpole



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Silver Surfer,

Quote:
The Bible test ...as to whom to believe is found in Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

I know of John MacArthur.
He is against God's Law, therefore I, myself, would NOT believe him.

I don't know of the other guy, but it is an easy way to test him.
Simply ask him if he understands this Bible verse, as it applies to todays Christian......

20:20 And hallow my (7th day) sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
Just why and how is this a test? What makes MacArthur wrong? Is it a scriptural test or your test? It is a universal test or do you think that others might have different tests?
If a universal test why would not MacArthur have used it? Is he not a smart man, is he not led by the Holy Spirit?
He says he is, so who is right?
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galen
Ferret



Joined: 22 May 2005

Posts: 115

Location: Maine
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thaddaeus wrote:
galen,

Quote:
No not at all.

We can study the Bible, and God can work within us.

Or we can study what men have to say about the Bible.

These are two entirely different things.


So, outside of yourself, the only person the Holy Spirit works with is you. If all the others state that they were also led by the Holy Spirit, who are you to judge that they were not and that you have His leading and you are alone correct?
Could you explain why we have possibly more than 20000 denominations today, all saying what you just stated?
Is the Gospel universal, or individual?


I am not going to chase you into that fox hole, I said nothing of the sort.
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Thaddaeus
Tadpole



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 9:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Galen,

Quote:
I am not going to chase you into that fox hole, I said nothing of the sort.
You made the statment and the foxhole. It's your foxhole, I'm just trying to understand why someone could make such a statment?
I'm just asking questions, so far.
It seems you have no explanation.
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Silver Surfer
King Kong



Joined: 12 Jul 2003

Posts: 2712

Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Silver Surfer wrote:
The Bible test ...as to whom to believe is found in Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.

I know of John MacArthur.
He is against God's Law, therefore I, myself, would NOT believe him.

I don't know of the other guy, but it is an easy way to test him.
Simply ask him if he understands this Bible verse, as it applies to todays Christian......

20:20 And hallow my (7th day) sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.


Thaddaeus wrote:
Just why and how is this a test?
Simply by the wording of the Scripture text.

Thaddaeus wrote:
What makes MacArthur wrong?
He opposes the Lord's Day, the 7th day sabbath.
Thsddaeus wrote:

Is it a scriptural test or your test?
From your question, I see that you have not read the Bible ?

Thaddaeus wrote:
It is a universal test or do you think that others might have different tests?
The ONLY test, is by the word of God, there is no other.
Quote:

If a universal test why would not MacArthur have used it?
You'd have to ask him that question.
Quote:

Is he not a smart man, is he not led by the Holy Spirit?
He says he is, so who is right?
He does not believe the Bible 100%.
His very words, have already shown that fact.
HOWEVER, I'm quick to say......I believe he is a very sincere man...in what he does believe.

Proverbs 14:12 There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof [are] the ways of death.
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wilber
Banned



Joined: 20 Dec 2007
Posts: 581
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2007 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote
Thaddaeus I'll have a go down the foxhole. I think I see what Galen's saying and I agree.
People are desperate to lean on anyone or anything rather than the Living Word.
Who do we trust in these matters? No-one. Not even ourselves. Especially not ourselves.
The question is - how do we interpret the written word? By guidance of the Holy Spirit and we will be in error to the extent that we were not open to His guidance, that we had a hidden agenda. But if we are open and genuine (truly thirsty) then we have a guide that is infallible.
God will allow us to find what we really want to find THE truth, or OUR truth - it's up to us.
What d'ya reckon?

wilber
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Thaddaeus
Tadpole



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Silver Surfer,

Quote:
Original statement: 20:20 And hallow my (7th day) sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.


My response:
Just why and how is this a test?
Your reponse:
Simply by the wording of the Scripture text.
But then we have a contradiction with Rom 14:4-6.

Quote:
What makes MacArthur wrong?
He opposes the Lord's Day, the 7th day sabbath.
Is he opposing Scripture or your interpretation of scripture?

Quote:
Is it a scriptural test or your test?
From your question, I see that you have not read the Bible ?
What makes it a test? Does the Bible say it is a test? What about the verse I posted.

Quote:
It is a universal test or do you think that others might have different tests?
The ONLY test, is by the word of God, there is no other.
Ah, but whose interpretation of that Word. Yours or the Holy Spirit as He gave it.

Quote:
He does not believe the Bible 100%.
His very words, have already shown that fact.
HOWEVER, I'm quick to say......I believe he is a very sincere man...in what he does believe.
Lets leave the 100% and unverifiable. But on the text is question, you have not shown he is actually incorrect. You have stated with assumption that He is not correct according to your interpretation. Can one assume that you would understand it 100% therefore you can judge others opinions or views as to whether they are true or not?
But being sincere does not define Truth.
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Thaddaeus
Tadpole



Joined: 22 Dec 2007
Posts: 17
PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wilber,

Quote:
People are desperate to lean on anyone or anything rather than the Living Word.
Who do we trust in these matters? No-one. Not even ourselves. Especially not ourselves.
I perceive just the opposite. They mistrust everything and anything, including the Authority of the Holy Spirit and rely ONLY upon themselves. Those that use the Scripture as their sole rule of faith are not using scripture as the authority, but themselves. I see only two sources of auithority. It is either Christ, (the Holy Spirit) or the reader, the person who makes the interpretation. Scripture as a book, as a printed page does not have authority.
If it actually had that power, then you would not have the myriad number of interpretations that come forth from this method.

Quote:
The question is - how do we interpret the written word? By guidance of the Holy Spirit and we will be in error to the extent that we were not open to His guidance, that we had a hidden agenda.
I would assume that no one has the Truth as given. No one has it perfectly, all have been open to some bias or hidden agenda. How can one determine who even might be closer. How do you know you are correct, that you understood correctly, when no a single other soul, believed the same, or at least on a few do but there are many other differing views on that very topic?
Is there such a thing as Truth. Are we condemned to ignorance, imperfection and God meant it to be so?

Quote:
But if we are open and genuine (truly thirsty) then we have a guide that is infallible.
I don't question the Holy Spirit. I question all those claims that use the phrase, "led by the Holy
Spirit",. yet there are a hundred different views. Is the Holy Spirit uncertain, or possibly we are not being given revelation?
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