The 6 commandments Romans 2

MoJo · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:53 am Post subject: The 6 commandments Romans 2

Here's something that I think provides a new light on the 10 commandments. First I'll post the ten so that they can be easily referred to;

Deu 5:6 ¶ I [am] the LORD thy God, which brought thee out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage.

1. Deu 5:7 ¶ Thou shalt have none other gods before me.
2. Deu 5:8 ¶ Thou shalt not make thee [any] graven image, [or] any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the waters beneath the earth: Deu 5:9 Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them:
3. Deu 5:11 ¶ Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold [him] guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
4. Deu 5:12 ¶ Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

5. Deu 5:16 ¶ Honour thy father and thy mother, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee; that thy days may be prolonged, and that it may go well with thee, in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
6. Deu 5:17 ¶ Thou shalt not kill.
7. Deu 5:18 ¶ Neither shalt thou commit adultery.
8. Deu 5:19 ¶ Neither shalt thou steal.
9. Deu 5:20 ¶ Neither shalt thou bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Deu 5:21 ¶ Neither shalt thou desire thy neighbour's wife, neither shalt thou covet thy neighbour's house, his field, or his manservant, or his maidservant, his ox, or his ass, or any [thing] that [is] thy neighbour's.

Now Romans

Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
Rom 2:13 (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, **which have not the law,** do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

Rom 2:26 Therefore if the uncircumcision **keep the righteousness of the law,** shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?

So I asked myself, how on earth could the Gentiles keep the righteousness of a law they were never given? You will notice that the first 4 commandments concern a relationship with God; a relationship that only Israel had. The Gentiles could not possibly keep the first 4 commandments as God did not make himself openly known to the Gentiles.

Amo 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.

The first 4 commandments were specific to Israel which leads me to believe that these 4 could not be imputed as iniquity to the Gentiles. However, the remaining 6 could. This, I believe, are the commandments that must be inherent to all men. It explains this scripture; the 6th commandment;

Eph 6:2 Honour thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)

One might conclude then that these 6 being inheritently in our natures to know that breaking them is wrong regardless of whether we consciously know God or not, are what the Gentiles who lived before Jesus and those who had no opportunity to hear the gospel, will be judged on. Since mankind had these within their natures, their conscience bears witness.

Now I have just dealt with the 10 commandments here for ease, but it obviously includes also the statutes and judgments that were not neccessarily specific to Israel. for instance a certain type of fornication. This is pointed out by Paul;

1Cr 5:1 It is reported commonly [that there is] fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

Way good stuff Mojo!

I'm tempted to steal it for my blog...
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:18 pm Post subject:

Hi MoJo,

what about the strangers that sojourned with Israel?
Did God speak to them as well?
And were they told to teach them to their children and to cause them to right them as remembrances?

Exd 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exd 12:49 **One law** shall be to him that is homeborn, **and** unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
Exd 12:50 ¶ Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
Exd 12:51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, [that] the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.

So there were Gentiles that sojourned with Israel.
And they were to keep the same laws as was given to Israel.

But even still...they at that time did not hear the spirit of the law, they only had the carnal working knowledge of it.

If you keep the law in your heart, mind, and soul, it becomes manifest in ones words and deeds.

The Gentiles that sojourned with Israel were all under the same law, if they abided in Israel.

again:

Lev 24:22 Ye shall have one manner of law, as well for the stranger, as for one of your own country: for I [am] the LORD your God.

Ruth is a perfect example:

Rth 1:14 And they lifted up their voice, and wept again: and Orpah kissed her mother in law; but Ruth clave unto her.
Rth 1:15 ¶ And she said, Behold, **thy sister in law is gone back unto her people**, and **unto her gods**: return thou after thy sister in law.
Rth 1:16 And Ruth said, Intreat me not to leave thee, [or] to return from following after thee: for whither thou goest, I will go; and where thou lodgest, I will lodge: **thy people [shall be] my people, and thy God my God:**
Rth 1:17 Where thou diest, will I die, and there will I be buried: the LORD do so to me, and more also, [if ought] but death part thee and me.
Rth 1:18 When she saw that she was stedfastly minded to go with her, then she left speaking unto her.

Here is an example of a Gentile joining herself to the people and God of Israel.

Neh 10:28 ¶ And the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the porters, the singers, the Nethinims, and all they **that had separated themselves from the people of the lands unto the law of God**, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, every one having knowledge, and having understanding;
Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;
Neh 10:30 And that we would not give our daughters unto the people of the land, nor take their daughters for our sons:
Neh 10:31 And [if] the people of the land bring ware or any victuals on the sabbath day to sell, [that] we would not buy it of them on the sabbath, or on the holy day: and [that] we would leave the seventh year, and the exaction of every debt.

The law says that if anyone is hung on a tree is accursed of God.
Jesus said take up your cross and follow me.
For those who will seek to save their lives shall lose it, and those that lose it for my sake shall find it.

Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
Gal 3:11 But that *no man is justified by the law* in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, *The just shall live by faith*.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, **being made a curse for us**: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:
Gal 3:14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Jesus fulfilled the law in that he took upon himself the curse of the law by fulfilling it to the end.
We are told to take up the cross and to die to our own works and our sins.
The only way we can be redeemed from the curse of the law is by coming under the curse of the law ourselves.

Luk 9:23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.

Now this is not a one time thing, this is daily.
This is living in the law and carrying the curse of it upon our own shoulders.
And if we are faithful and walk in God's law, then we would have come into the covenant with God to come out from among those nations which serve other gods and become willing to serve under His law.

If we do not serve under the law of God then we are choosing to save ourselves from the condemnation of the law. But if we submit ourselves to it, then those who lose their lives for Christ's sake shall find it.
And will be brought out and redeemed from the curse of the law.

The law brings death to those who walk in it. Death to self and serving other gods.
But the law also brings life to those who walk in it. By being redeemed from the world and walking in the righteousness of God and His law.

(not in one's own righteousness, that would be walking in ones own laws. And man's laws are not righteous neither can they be. Only God's laws are righteous and can lead one through death and into eternal life. Man's laws leads you to death and leaves you there.)

If you seek to save yourself from condemnation. Then condemnation itself will slay you.
If you seek to lose yourself (die to self) and to be redeemed from condemnation, then submitting yourself to God will bring everlasting life.

The Gentiles were given the same laws as the Israelites, if one chose to join and sojourn among them.

Again Paul describes this in the grafting in of branches.

and I ask..who is getting grafted into who?
Is Israel supposed to leave Israel and walk in the ways of the Gentiles? Isn't this what destroyed them before?
Is it not rather the Gentiles who leave the world and their gods behind them and walk in the righteousness of God?

Can we keep the commandments?
With God all things are possible.. Very Happy

And if we fall?

Hbr 4:14 ¶ Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast [our] profession.
Hbr 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as [we are, yet] without sin.
Hbr 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help **in time of need**.

The question isn't do we have faith that we can keep the commandments? The question is do we have faith that Jesus is there to help us in time of need?
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

MoJo · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 12:58 pm Post subject:

MoJo · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject:

Yes, those that opted to abide in Israel were adopted in and became as one born there.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

RND · Posted: Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:28 pm Post subject: Re: The 6 commandments Romans 2

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 5:43 am Post subject:

Hi RND,

The reason why the sabbath may not have been passed down to the Gentiles as a day of rest and no work, could be because even the Jews weren't keeping it.
You think they want to give something to someone else that they felt they couldn't have?

If you had a scale in your hand and on one side you had the sabbath and on the other hand you had circumcision, would they weigh equally? One side says perform no work so that everyone can rest. The other side says a work must be performed so then some are not allowed to rest. Do you keep the commandment or the ordinance...this is the question?
How many babies you think reached their eigth day on the sabbath days?
I don't think they ever had rest. So how could they teach something they themselves didn't do?

The commandment says you are to do no "work" on the sabbath day. That's earning a living. Was Jesus "working" on the sabbath day when he was picking corn?

Deu 23:24 ¶ When thou comest into thy neighbour's vineyard, then thou mayest eat grapes thy fill at thine own pleasure; but thou shalt not put [any] in thy vessel.
Deu 23:25 When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.

and what were they doing?

Luk 6:1 And it came to pass on the second sabbath after the first, that he went through the corn fields; and his disciples plucked the ears of corn, and did eat, rubbing [them] in [their] hands.

They didn't bring a sickle and they didn't put them in vessels. They ate with their hands.
If they were "working" then it would have been to gather and to sell and to earn a living.

But circumcision was ok.. Confused or disgusted

If the Gentiles who sojourned among the Jews didn't have the sabbath, it's because the Jews didn't give it to them. They didn't even keep it themselves.
Unless they could blame you for breaking it and stone you for it, then they could use it against you.

The one day that was meant to be a release from all burdens became the one biggest burden of all. Because they broke it.
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

RND · Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 6:26 am Post subject:

MoJo · Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:30 am Post subject:

I left out those parts, RND, simply to keep the post as short as possible and they were not necessary to the point of the thread. It's not about the sabbath.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

RND · Posted: Tue Mar 06, 2007 9:23 pm Post subject:

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6908 Location: USA

RND · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:26 am Post subject:

MoJo · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:31 am Post subject:

RND, first of all, the subject I was dealing with was in past tense. IOW, what was applicable before Jesus as Paul was commenting on some of the Gentiles who by nature, before having knowledge of God, kept the righteousness of the law. So you are steaming all over the place without thinking about what I actually said and in the context of who Paul was referring to.

Secondly, in the gates of any house, a person is subject to the laws of the house. So any non-Israelites who chose to live in the land of Israel were also subject to the laws of the house of Israel. Just as we are subject to the laws of the land we live in.

Given Paul is speaking to the Romans and in other epistles to Gentiles who were not abiding in Israel, some of these were keeping the righteousness of the law by nature even though they did not live in Israel or had ever heard or read the Mosaic law. Past tense.

Now although men by nature might know that a day of resting is good for them, the Gentile world who did not abide with Israel, were never commanded a specific day to rest on. This was specific to Israel and you cannot prove otherwise by any scripture. In fact Josephus wrote that the Gentiles would attack Israel on the sabbath knowing they would not fight.

As to worshipping false idols, the whole of the Gentile world practiced this. You are comparing apples to oranges to try to compare this to the state of affairs today, since graven image worship was severely diminished when Christianity became legal.

I said the thread was not about whether we are to keep the sabbath or not. It's about how it can be said that Paul could say that some of the Gentiles had kept the law of righteousness by nature. By nature meaning **not** by intercession of the Spirit. The only way that was possible was for man to have by nature some conciousness of good and evil that was exercised.

Look at what the Lord even said about the Gentiles and their gods in comparison to Israel;

Jer 2:10 For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing.
Jer 2:11 Hath a nation changed [their] gods, which [are] yet no gods? but my people have changed their glory for [that which] doth not profit.

So even the heathen were at least loyal to their gods even though these were false gods.

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

RND · Posted: Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:02 am Post subject:

Mojo, you seem to be changing your tune in light of the obvious and incorrect statements you made in your OP, such as: