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Hi Argenta! I'm back to ask you a question...

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HeKkLeR
King Kong

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280

Location: Europe

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 6:15 am Post subject: Hi Argenta! I'm back to ask you a question...

Hey Argenta! Very Happy

It has surely been a while since we last... conversed. Wink

But I did make a vow to you.

I wrote:

I'll tell you what, I'll pray for something for you... and question you about it later. If what I pray for comes to pass, then you have an abundance of faith that even your self has no knowledge about.

If it does not come to pass, then you do not have an abundance of faith.

Either way, faith comes from God as a gift. I am definitely no magician and hold no power on my own. If, as you say, you are open to change your mind, then perhaps your heart is open for God to change your mind for you?

The Truth will tell. Very Happy

Do you remember?

Then, I wrote:

Argenta, I did not write some cute, clever things to you. What is written, has surely come to pass. I certainly did pray for something for you, about which I will question you later, Lord willing.

Well now, the time has come for me to question you about what I prayed for, for you alone. I prayed so diligently for you, Argenta, that all of my energy was gone afterwards, and I was put into a deep sleep. Let us examine, hopefully in truth, the outcome. Shall we?

First, I will tell you what I prayed for:

I examined your arguments against anything that had to do with faith. I read your words against the effectiveness of prayer. Believe it or not, I read the words that you typed with great interest. The words that you left stating that prayer does not work, according to you, because you do not believe in it. But most especially, I read where you typed this:

Argenta wrote:

I already detect a slightly more courteous tone in this post (perhaps my prayer has been answered?). Thank you for that.

Now, even though that above statement was written perhaps in sarcasm, I detect truth in it also. There is a saying that came to me years ago, and stays with me now, that goes like this: "Behind every lie, is the truth."

You see, the Truth stands no matter how many lies one might try to paint and cover over it. The bible confirms this. The words of Jesus Christ confirm it. And I emphatically believe it.

So... before I said the prayer for you, I prayed first to the Lord for what I should pray for, for you. The answer I received was beautiful!

I prayed to God for you to pray to Him for what you truly want.

Let me explain a little deeper:

cry out to Him

His power

extreme, unequivical, power over all

hope

God would actually hear your prayer.

your

So, what have you? Has what I prayed for, for you, come to pass? I should hope so. Very Happy

_________________
Peace

The HeKkLeR

Argenta
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393

Location: UK

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 10:17 am Post subject: Re: Hi Argenta! I'm back to ask you a question...

Hello HeKkLeR
How nice of you to remember your promise… Smile

I’m rather busy at the moment so I don’t manage to look at this group very often. So I apologise if I’ve left any discussions hanging and if you’ve waited a while for my reply.

HeKkLeR wrote:

Hey Argenta! Very Happy

It has surely been a while since we last... conversed. Wink

But I did make a vow to you.

I wrote:

Do you remember?

I do!

HeKkLeR wrote:

Then, I wrote:

Argenta, I did not write some cute, clever things to you. What is written, has surely come to pass. I certainly did pray for something for you, about which I will question you later, Lord willing.

Argenta wrote:

I already detect a slightly more courteous tone in this post (perhaps my prayer has been answered?). Thank you for that.

I must correct you here HeKkLeR, what I believe has no affect on whether prayer works. The reason I don't think prayer works is because the evidence shows that it does NOT work for any faith. That must be for one of two reasons:
1. There is no god;
2. There is a god but it does not intervene in the world;

HeKkLeR wrote:

Now, even though that above statement was written perhaps in sarcasm, I detect truth in it also.

I prefer the term irony Smile

HeKkLeR wrote:

So... before I said the prayer for you, I prayed first to the Lord for what I should pray for, for you. The answer I received was beautiful!

I prayed to God for you to pray to Him for what you truly want.

Let me explain a little deeper:

cry out to Him

His power

extreme, unequivical, power over all

hope

God would actually hear your prayer.

your

So, what have you? Has what I prayed for, for you, come to pass? I should hope so. Very Happy

Well I have to be totally honest. I have prayed. The last time I prayed was when I was 12 years old. Sadly that is long before I joined this discussion group.

I must say one thing though. I am very pleased that you are beginning to use the scientific method to test your claims. That really is the only way to avoid believing things that are just not true. So what have you learned from your experiment?

Love

Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention

HeKkLeR
King Kong

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280

Location: Europe

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:14 am Post subject:

Argenta wrote:

So I apologise if I’ve left any discussions hanging and if you’ve waited a while for my reply.

No apology necessary! Your reply came only 4 hours after I posted! Actually, that is very much in good time. Wink

Thank you for replying.

Argenta wrote:

So what have you learned from your experiment?

Well, if it has not happened yet, then as I wrote from the start:

I wrote:

If it does not come to pass, then you do not have an abundance of faith.

But then again, as I also said, I am no magician, and have no power on my own. God works at His own pace. So... as I have also said before: there is hope for you, yet. And in that, I rejoice for you! Very Happy

I have not forgotten about you at all. And surely, I will continue to pray for you. Though I doubt that will comfort you, it will be doing the will of my Father, for sure. Very Happy

Thanks again for the reply, and God bless you! Very Happy

_________________
Peace

The HeKkLeR

Argenta
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393

Location: UK

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 12:25 pm Post subject:

HeKkLeR wrote:

Argenta wrote:

So what have you learned from your experiment?

Well, if it has not happened yet, then as I wrote from the start:

I wrote:

If it does not come to pass, then you do not have an abundance of faith.

Really, my dear HeKkLeR, you must have known that I don't have an abundance of faith, I don't even have a poverty of faith--I have none at all! More than that I regard faith as an abomination #evil

Faith, believing things with no or contrary evidence, is how people come to believe complete nonsense.

You believe faith is a gift from God. But where does the faith of those who believe in non-Abramic gods come from? They need just as much of it as you do to believe their dogma. Do they get it from your God? Sounds improbable doesn't it? So if they are mistaken in their faith how do you know you are not mistaken in yours? Give me a good reason how you can be sure YOU are not the mistaken one?

HeKkLeR wrote:

Hope for me to do or achieve or receive what?? Confused or disgusted

HeKkLeR wrote:

I have not forgotten about you at all. And surely, I will continue to pray for you. Though I doubt that will comfort you, it will be doing the will of my Father, for sure. Very Happy

How exactly can you be sure that is the will of your Father?

Love

Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention

HeKkLeR
King Kong

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280

Location: Europe

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject:

I think I will just smile and nod my head, Argenta. Smiling and nodding head God Bless you on your way. _________________ Peace The HeKkLeR

theseldomscene
Banned

Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 1:48 pm Post subject:

...

Argenta
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393

Location: UK

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:24 pm Post subject:

HeKkLeR wrote:

I think I will just smile and nod my head, Argenta.

*Smiling and nodding head*

God Bless you on your way. Very Happy

Thanks for your good wishes HeKkLeR. It's a pity though, I thought you were beginning to test your hypotheses in a scientific way. Obviously not.

You know it's tough being a scientist. You need honesty, integrity and intellectual courage. This is because every time you have a great idea; one that could solve a long-standing problem; make you famous or even rich, you have to test it. And if it fails the test you have to abandon it.

I have yet to meet a Christian or Muslim who has the honesty, integrity and intellectual courage to really test their religious beliefs. Not one. Do you know what Christians do when they find evidence that undermines their faith? In my experience, they close their eyes, shake their heads and desperately try to forget they ever saw it. They say, "My faith tells me this evidence MUST be wrong in some way so I have to ignore it."

But faith has no ability to distinguish truth from falsity; it has only the ability to delude you.

I will hope for you, my dear friend HeKkLeR. I will hope that one day you will open your eyes and follow the evidence wherever it takes you with courage, honesty and an open mind. I will hope that you will begin to truly understand and appreciate this beautiful and awesome world and treat every second of your finite life as deeply precious. Your one and only chance to bring joy to those around you and true happiness to yourself.

I really will hope but I won't hold my breath.

Love

Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention

theseldomscene
Banned

Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817

Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2007 11:34 pm Post subject:

this is the sweetest thread i have read in a long time... what a pleasure...

HeKkLeR
King Kong

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280

Location: Europe

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 2:57 am Post subject:

Argenta wrote:

Thanks for your good wishes HeKkLeR.

You are more welcome than you could possibly dream. Very Happy

Quote:

I have yet to meet a Christian or Muslim who has the honesty, integrity and intellectual courage to really test their religious beliefs. Not one.

I know you have no clue, but it is truly amazing that you state this to me. Surprised

Quote:

I will hope for you, my dear friend HeKkLeR. I will hope that one day you will open your eyes and follow the evidence wherever it takes you with courage, honesty and an open mind. I will hope that you will begin to truly understand and appreciate this beautiful and awesome world and treat every second of your finite life as deeply precious. Your one and only chance to bring joy to those around you and true happiness to yourself.

Wow!

Argenta, if I did not know any better, I would say that you were a sheep in wolves' clothing. I would say that you have the gift of prophesy, even. Shocked

But... be as it may... instead, I will offer to you my sincere gratitude for your good wishes and offered hope on my behalf.

And I tell you the truth... one posting under the name of Argenta... God has blessed you in many ways that you have not acknowledged.
_________________
Peace

The HeKkLeR

HeKkLeR
King Kong

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280

Location: Europe

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:03 am Post subject:

theseldomscene wrote:

this is the sweetest thread i have read in a long time...

what a pleasure... Laughing

Yeah bro... right?
Laughing

I think I've just been blessed by her last post to me. Very Happy

Proof that treasures from heaven only add up... even in places unexpected... and are never subtracted. Wink

_________________
Peace

The HeKkLeR

eleven
King of the Jungle

Joined: 28 Sep 2007
Posts: 1561

Location: Texas

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 5:05 am Post subject:

Argenta wrote:

Quote:

You know it's tough being a scientist. You need honesty, integrity and intellectual courage. This is because every time you have a great idea; one that could solve a long-standing problem; make you famous or even rich, you have to test it. And if it fails the test you have to abandon it.

You can take that statement and replace the word scientist with the word Christian.
The Bible literally invites people to prove what is written by living it, and see if it works for you. And guess what- it does!

It makes no sense to live the way Jesus says to, especially in this me-first society we live in. But when you apply the scriptures to your life, it works! What more proof do you need?

Atheists are so hell bent on proving God exists. Where ya gonna look??? God lives within you, hidden in plain sight - so that's where the proving ground is.

How in the world can you claim you have no faith? That is impossible. Did you have to guess that water would come out of your spigot today when you turned the water on? Do you think about what will happen when you walk up the steps? Will the staircase hold you?
You have faith that these things will work - you don't even think about it.

Finally, if there is no question that God does not exist, then why spend so much time and energy talking about Him?

atoz
Emperor of the Solar System

Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 6:43 am Post subject:

Argenta wrote:

....
You know it's tough being a scientist. You need honesty, integrity and intellectual courage. This is because every time you have a great idea; one that could solve a long-standing problem; make you famous or even rich, you have to test it. And if it fails the test you have to abandon it.

.......

Love

Argenta

That's it: you need all those religious qualities: honesty, integrity, courage,

the last 2 being other words for Love:

Love integrates itself into everything and so integrates everything, and so Love is integrity.

Courage is rooted in the french word for heart which stands for---Love.

Of course, honesty & truth to be honest & truthful have to be honesty & truth based on Love.
Honesty and truth without Love or with the passion of Hatred is dishonesty and a lie.

So most scientists needed some of that Religious Method in their Scientific Method!:

"In fact the a priori reasoning is so entirely satisfactory to me that

if the facts won't fit in,

why so much the worse for the facts is my feeling."
Erasmus Darwin, in a letter to his brother Charles, after reading his new book, "The Origin of Species," in Darwin, F., ed., "The Life of Charles Darwin," [1902], Senate: London, 1995, reprint, p215.

"At this point, it is necessary to reveal a little inside information about how scientists work, something the textbooks don't usually tell you.

The fact is that scientists are not really as objective and dispassionate in their work as they would like you to think.

Most scientists first get their ideas about how the world works not through rigorously logical processes but through hunches and wild guesses. As individuals they often come to believe something to be true long before they assemble the hard evidence that will convince somebody else that it is. Motivated by faith in his own ideas and a desire for acceptance by his peers, a scientist will labor for years knowing in his heart that his theory is correct but devising experiment after experiment whose results he hopes will support his position."
Boyce Rensberger, How the World Works, William Morrow, NY, 1986, pp. 17–18. Rensberger is an ardently anti-creationist science writer.

"I had motive[a pre-disposition/a pre-judice!] for not wanting the world to have a meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption. The philosopher who finds no meaning in the world is not concerned exclusively with a problem in pure metaphysics, he is also concerned to prove that there is no valid reason why he personally should not do as he wants to do, or why his friends should not seize political power and govern in the way that they find most advantageous to themselves. … For myself, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation, sexual and political."
Aldous Huxley: Ends and Means, pp. 270 ff.

These scientists are on their way to the right attitude of Love for both opposing sides:

"Any suppression which undermines and destroys that very foundation on which scientific methodology and research was erected, evolutionist or otherwise, cannot and must not be allowed to flourish ... It is a confrontation between scientific objectivity and ingrained prejudice - between logic and emotion - between fact and fiction ... In the final analysis, objective scientific logic has to prevail - no matter what the final result is - no matter how many time-honoured idols have to be discarded in the process ... After all, it is not the duty of science to defend the theory of evolution and stick by it to the bitter end -no matter what illogical and unsupported conclusions it offers ... If in the process of impartial scientific logic, they find that creation by outside intelligence is the solution to our quandary, then Lets cut the umbilical chord that tied us down to Darwin for such a long time. It is choking us and holding us back ... Every single concept advanced by the theory of evolution (and amended thereafter) is imaginary as it is not supported by the scientifically established probability concepts. Darwin was wrong... The theory of evolution may be the worst mistake made in science."
I L Cohen, Darwin Was Wrong - A Study in Probabilities PO Box 231, Greenvale, New York 11548: New Research Publications, Inc. pp 6-8, 209-210, 214-215. I.L.Cohen, Member of the New York Academy of Sciences and Officer of the Archaeological Institute of America.

"In fact, evolution became in a sense a scientific religion; almost all scientists accepted it and many are prepared to 'bend' their observations to fit in with it."
H. J. Lipson, F.R.S. "A physicist looks at evolution" Physics Bulletin, vol 31, 1980

"I think we need to go further than this and admit that the only acceptable explanation is creation. I know this is an anathema to physicists, as indeed it is to me, but we must not reject a theory that we do not like if the experimental evidence supports it."
H. S. Lipson; Prof of Physics, University of Manchester, A paper published by The Institute of Physics, IOP Publishing Ltd., 1980

With the Integrity of Love for the religious scientist & the scientific religionist,
atoz

Argenta
Big Pit Bull

Joined: 24 Apr 2007
Posts: 393

Location: UK

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:06 am Post subject:

eleven wrote:

Argenta wrote:

Quote:

And guess what – so does the Koran and The Vedas and the Guru Granth Sahib and the Book of Mormon and many more. Given this additional evidence, what do you conclude? Do tell me your thoughts.

eleven wrote:

It makes no sense to live the way Jesus says to, especially in this me-first society we live in. But when you apply the scriptures to your life, it works! What more proof do you need?

Do you apply the scriptures?
Luke 18:20 You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother." 21 "All these I have kept since I was a boy," he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."

Or do you do this:
Luke 14:26 "If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father and mother, his wife and children, his brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be my disciple”.

Or this even:
John 6:53 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you. 54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink. Confused or disgusted

Do explain how these things work to make life better eleven…

eleven wrote:

How in the world can you claim you have no faith? That is impossible. Did you have to guess that water would come out of your spigot today when you turned the water on? Do you think about what will happen when you walk up the steps? Will the staircase hold you?
You have faith that these things will work - you don't even think about it.

Oh but I do. I use faith in the sense of believing something with NO evidence or in the face of CONTRARY evidence. I have plenty of evidence for all the examples you give. So I don’t need faith.

eleven wrote:

Finally, if there is no question that God does not exist, then why spend so much time and energy talking about Him?

I was quite open-minded when I came here asking for evidence of god’s existence (click here) but I found not one person could give me a good reason for believing. Of course, I’m still open to changing my mind but I’d say the evidence I’ve seen so far is quite clear: the god of the Bible does not exist. I’ve even put forward my evidence and conclusions and almost no-one has attempted to contradict me. So what started out as an exploration has developed into curiosity why so many adults believe, what seem to be fairy tales, without evidence and with no willingness to change their closed minds no matter how much contrary evidence is offered.

You say it works, well let’s look at that claim. If believing in god makes you feel better that’s great. But it does not mean that god exists—it just means believing that god exists makes you feel better. Otherwise how do you explain why millions of people of other faiths feel the same way about their non-existent gods?

If your god is real, ask your friends, family, even the whole country on the next national day of prayer, to pray for the elimination of malaria (malaria kills one million children every year). Or ask them to pray for the elimination of childhood cancers, or the elimination of birth defects.

If you succeeded in any one of these prayers, I would believe in your god but you know and I know none of these things will ever happen (unless humans figure out how to do it) because non-existent gods can’t answer prayers, can they?

Hasn't it ever struck you as odd that god will apparently take time out of his busy schedule to help sinner Sam pass his exams or help sinner Sally get a promotion but can’t be bothered to do anything about malaria? Rolling Eyes

Love

Argenta
_________________
God is man's deadliest invention

Plotinus
Lion King

Joined: 15 May 2007
Posts: 1037

Location: Canada

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 7:46 am Post subject:

Welcome back Argenta. I was worried there for a few days, when you disappeared in the middle of some interesting discussions. You know the rest of us value your presence on this forum. On with business.

Argenta wrote:

If your god is real, ask your friends, family, even the whole country on the next national day of prayer, to pray for the elimination of malaria (malaria kills one million children every year). Or ask them to pray for the elimination of childhood cancers, or the elimination of birth defects.

Indeed. This is why many people believe, not only that there is no evidence for God's existence, but that there is evidence that God does not exist. A loving God would surely eliminate malaria. It is difficult to imagine a God sitting around doing nothing while people are dying of terrible diseases. It is enough to make one angry. A God who is not loving would not be worth worshiping -- right?

So here is the question. What should a loving God do about suffering? Eliminate some of it? All of it? Should a loving God have made a world without suffering in it? What would such a world look like? These questions are directed at all and sundry, atheists and theists alike.
_________________
One would never discover the limits of soul, should one traverse every road -- so deep a measure does it possess.

Heraclitus, fragment 45, quoted in Diogenes Laertius 9.7.

HeKkLeR
King Kong

Joined: 18 Aug 2003
Posts: 2280

Location: Europe

Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:03 am Post subject:

Hi Plotinus,

You wrote:

So here is the question. What should a loving God do about suffering? Eliminate some of it? All of it? Should a loving God have made a world without suffering in it? What would such a world look like?

Romans 9:23 What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the objects of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory---
_________________
Peace

The HeKkLeR

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