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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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 Posted: Sun Sep 23, 2007 7:06 am Post subject: Why Christians, Need to Think about 'their' Judgment Day |
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1 Peter 4:17 For the time [is come] that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if [it] first [begin] at us, what shall the end [be] of them that obey not the gospel of God?
4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
This is a Heaven or Hell issue.
In that verse, states the fact between the sinner and the Righteous.
It involves whether a Christian's name stays 'IN' the Book of Life, or is taken 'OUT' of the Book of Life.
The issue revolves around whether a person understands what the Gospel message includes....ALL of it, not just one part of it.
How many people in the Christian world understand that the keeping of the 7th day sabbath is part of the EverLasting Gospel message ?
Revelation 14:6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
Did you notice that the Gospel message included, both God's Judgment Day and the 7th day sabbath ? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2192
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 5:07 am Post subject: |
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Brother Surfer, we have talked about this over on the Viewpoints site, and have shown that Adventism makes an untenable assumption in saying that this judgement is occuring now or is yet to occur. In fact, it makes a totally unproveable assumption in stating that it began in 1844.
If Peter plainly stated "the time is come that judgement must begin..." then Adventism is plainly contradicting him when it teaches that the time had not come, and would not come until 1844.
And furthermore, the angel in your quote from Rev 14 also says "the hour of His judgement is come". YOu may say that John was seeing this as soon to come, but then you must also admit that this judgement was not the same as the one Peter was writing about, because Peter was plainly not seeing it prophetically, he said it was actually happening at the time he wrote his epistle.
We have also shown on the Viewpoints site that Adventism's teaching that Jesus is conducting the rituals of the earthly high priest in a literal tabernacle up in heaven somewhere are not based in scripture. And we have shown that there is no Biblical support for the claim that the ritual of the yearly Atonement which the high priest conducted was an "investigative judgement." Quite the opposite - it atoned for sin, rather than condemned those who committed it. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:50 pm Post subject: |
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| Zathrus wrote: | | Brother Surfer, we have talked about this over on the Viewpoints site, and have shown that Adventism makes an untenable assumption in saying that this judgement is occuring now or is yet to occur. |
Since you refuse to acknowledge the Bible's description of the Seventh Day Adventist church, I'm not surprised.
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In fact, it makes a totally unproveable assumption in stating that it began in 1844. |
God gave the date the Judgment would start...all you have to do is simply believe what the Bible says, that's all.
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If Peter plainly stated "the time is come that judgement must begin..." then Adventism is plainly contradicting him when it teaches that the time had not come, and would not come until 1844. |
Do you understand that the dead in Christ will be judged before the living ?
In other words, Adam & Eve....Abraham.....Moses have alreay been thru God's Judgment process.
WHY ?
Because they died so long ago, when the Judgment started in 1844 like the Bible says it would, they who died in believing in Jesus Christ as their personal Savior, were to be judged far ahead of any of us.
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And furthermore, the angel in your quote from Rev 14 also says "the hour of His judgement is come". YOu may say that John was seeing this as soon to come, but then you must also admit that this judgement was not the same as the one Peter was writing about, because Peter was plainly not seeing it prophetically, he said it was actually happening at the time he wrote his epistle. |
Using your same reasoning....the Apostle John and Paul both saw the rise of the [b]Anti-Christ in their day......YET, the Christian world claims the anti-Christ is yet to come.[/b]
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We have also shown on the Viewpoints site that Adventism's teaching that Jesus is conducting the rituals of the earthly high priest in a literal tabernacle up in heaven somewhere are not based in scripture. |
When you say such things as that, I realize you have yet to study the Bible in detail.
SANCTUARY SERVICES......Heavenly copied on earth by Moses
Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken [this is] the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
8:2 A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
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Hebrews 9:9 Which [was] a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
9:10 [Which stood] only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed [on them] until the time of reformation.
9:11 But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us].
9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
9:16 For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
9:18 Whereupon neither the first [testament] was dedicated without blood.
9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
9:20 Saying, This [is] the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
9:23 [It was] therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, [which are] the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
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Exodus 25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.
25:9 According to all that I show thee, [after] the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make [it].
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Rev. 11:19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
<THE ARK OF THE TESTAMENT CONTAINED THE 10 COMMANDMENTS, ON EARTH....so then sanctuary on earth, was a 'copy' of the original>
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Rev. 8:3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer [it] with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
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Rev. 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
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Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;
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And we have shown that there is no Biblical support for the claim that the ritual of the yearly Atonement which the high priest conducted was an "investigative judgement." |
Had you read Leviticus you'd have known that those who had not totally given up their previous, forgiven sins... were banished from the camp, FOREVER !
The very same thing will happen on God's Investigative Judgment Day.
Names, will be taken OUT OF the Book of Life.
BUT, those who have totally given up their previous sins, not sinning anymore in this earthly life, retain their names in the Book of Life , Praise God !!! |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:32 pm Post subject: |
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You believe that God is going to judge you for not keeping one day out of the week?
what about the other 6 days? |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:05 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | You believe that God is going to judge you for not keeping one day out of the week? |
As the Bible says....the commandments are the standard to be used on God's Judgment Day (Eccl. 12:13,14 & James 2:10-12....ect....ect...ect.)
It takes just one small act of disobedience to be in trouble.....just ask Adam & Eve.
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what about the other 6 days? |
How the other 6 days are to be employed, is covered in Exodus 20:8-11.
That is why it is ridiculous when people claim to keep all 7 day holy....because God says to work 6 days, and ONLY keep one day Holy, and God is very specific which day, is to be kept Holy.
As I've said before....the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath is the test, whereby everyone's loyaty (or disloyalty) is shown.......
20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I [am] the LORD that sanctify them.
20:19 I [am] the LORD your God; walk in my statutes, and keep my judgments, and do them;
20:20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I [am] the LORD your God.
And the 'true' Christian has absolutely no problem with that......
1 John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:32 am Post subject: |
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You know,
Israel didn't keep the sabbaths.. and God still forgave them.
are you 100% pure and holy?
If not, then how can you keep something pure and holy if it's not something you can even be in yourself?
But if you have faith and you believe that God is able to make the impossible possible...
1Pe 1:22 ¶ Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, [see that ye] love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
1Pe 1:24 For all flesh [is] as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
1Pe 1:25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.
what is unfeigned love? and how do we love one another with a pure heart fervently?
If we keep the sabbath as a fleshly observance, does it profit anything? Is it not rather an observance that we keep in our spirits which is in faith, that doesn't wither or falleth away?
hugs
lone |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 633
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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Should we think about our Judgement Day?? Does not Christ tell not to worry about tomorrow?? Are we not hopeful and strong in faith for God has given us His Seal, His Holy Spirit in us. Eph 1:13, 4:30??
"The real purpose of becoming a christian is not to save yourself from hell or be saved to go to heaven. It is to become a child of God, with the character of Jesus Christ, to stand before men pledged unto the uttermost,"even unto death". By refusing to sin, refusing to bow your head in shame and preferring to die rather than to dishonor the son of God." --- John G. Lake
1 John 4:17 "Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have BOLDNESS in the day of judgement: BECAUSE AS HE IS, SO ARE WE IN THIS WORLD." |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5037
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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| We won't, but tell me something? SS, if this board disallowed you & your other SDA friends not to speak of the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath, do you think you could find enough to talk about to post everyday? Just asking? |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | We won't, but tell me something? SS, if this board disallowed you & your other SDA friends not to speak of the 4th commandment, the 7th day sabbath, do you think you could find enough to talk about to post everyday? Just asking? |
Ever hear the saying: "The whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help me God".
But, since the 7th day sabbath is part of the Gospel message (Revelation 14:6,7), why would you want God to stop telling people, about any one part of the Gospel message ?
That is why many of God's prophets were killed for....giving God's message, which they did not want to hear.
In fact, I believe I have been banned from Christian viewpoints....for that very reason.
No one over there, wanted to wear the 'whole' Bible truth.
They only want to hear the easy part, the first part.
The part which will get them into heaven they don't want to know about.
What so many people don't realize....is they are not fighting me, it is Jesus Christ words they fight against.
I just happen to show them Scripture verses, which they don't want to know about. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:19 pm Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | You know,
Israel didn't keep the sabbaths.. and God still forgave them. |
Then why did He reject the Nation of Israel ?
70 Week Prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27
Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate".
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Matthew 18:21 Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?
18:22 Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.
7 times 70 = 490......which is the perfect reference of Christ's to the prophecy found in Daniel 9:24-27.
NOW....Jesus Christ's explanation of this prophecy........
Matthew 21:33 Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country:
21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 And the husbandmen took his servants, and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 But last of all he sent unto them his son, saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 But when the husbandmen saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 And they caught him, and cast [him] out of the vineyard, and slew [him].
21:40 When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out [his] vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 "Therefore say I unto you...The Kingdom of God shall be taken from you........and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof".
21:44 And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.
21:45 And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5037
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:02 pm Post subject: |
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| SS wrote: | | In fact, I believe I have been banned from Christian viewpoints....for that very reason. |
SS, let me look into this, you should have said something to me. I see you post over here, never acurd to me you couldn't post over there.
I'll get back to you. OK? |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2656
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:15 pm Post subject: |
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| Nobby wrote: | | SS wrote: | | In fact, I believe I have been banned from Christian viewpoints....for that very reason. |
SS, let me look into this, you should have said something to me. I see you post over here, never acurd to me you couldn't post over there.
I'll get back to you. OK? |
I never really thought you had anything to do with what happened.....I think some of the Mods over there did me in. |
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Nobby
Board - Admin
Joined: 16 Sep 2002
Posts: 5037
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:34 pm Post subject: |
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| SS wrote: | | I never really thought you had anything to do with what happened.....I think some of the Mods over there did me in. |
Mod's, can move a thread to another forum or move a post to the delete forum. Only the Admin, or myself can bann a member!
SS, I'll check it out for you tomorrow.
I got to getsome sleep tonight.
Good night,
Nobby |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6342
Location: USA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:07 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Then why did He reject the Nation of Israel ?
70 Week Prophecy of Daniel 9:24-27 |
Because they weren't keeping the sabbath in spirit and in truth.
They were keeping it for their own glory and their own righteousness.
Do you know you can keep the sabbath in your own home?
Yet they were making people come to the temple and pay tithes in order to worship God.
Which comes first..tithes or God?
Jhn 4:20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. The Jews..say..
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24 God [is] a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship [him] in spirit and in truth.
They weren't taking care of the sick and the homeless.
Those they called demonised and sinners.
They made them believe that because they were sick, they were afflicted by devils..
they were..the Jews afflicted them.
The kingdom of God was taken away from Jerusalem and given to the Gentiles.
But, they were also given a promise...consider Paul talking about the olive tree and the branches being graffed back in...if they repent.
A remnant shall be saved...and all it takes is a remnant..a little leaven to leaven the whole batch.
This should be looked in a positive way.
Because the little dozen that was leavened was thrown into the whole batch..and many which heard believed and were saved.
The promise of life through faith and not by works.
They had no life, they were dead, because they had no faith. And this is Eternal Life, to know the one true God and Jesus Christ whom he sent.
And Jesus came to raise the dead, to teach them faith, so that they could be born again and live unto the true God in spirit and in truth.
Jhn 4:21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
Jhn 4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews
The prophecy has been fulfilled.
Today we see the fruit of that prophecy manifesting itself.
Those who continue to sin by believing in the works of the law to make oneself righteous,
And those who were once under the law being freed and allowed to worship God through faith.
You say that Satan said the righteous need no law and that he lied when he said it.
Jesus said he came not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.
Paul says that the law was made for sinners and not for the righteous...
Do you see a trend here?
Now either the serpent was telling the truth, or Jesus and Paul are both liars.
Which is it?
Who is the beast in Revelation? was it destroyed?
Did the Gospel leave the Jews and go to the Gentiles?
Did Jerusalem that HIGH City on the hill, fall from her glory?
Was that mountain you know the mountain?, Was that mountain cast into the sea? Like a millstone around ones neck..
Was Moses' law cast out and the True Law of God set up in it's place?
Love One Another..this is the commandment you had from the beginning.
Not animal sacrifices, not ordinances in meat and drink, not about making the outside clean...
WE are the animals..(that don't sound good, but it's true)
We are the sheep that Israel was sacrificing for their own sins.
Let me ask you. The law says that only pure unblemished sheep were to be used for the sacrifices right?
When Joseph devised a scheme to take from Laban all the speckled and blemished sheep, did he prosper more than Laban?
You think Laban was mad because Joseph didn't leave him any perfect sheep in which to give sacrifice?
Are we perfect? yet we are sheep, and we are told that God loves those that are weak and sick, because then he makes us strong and healthy.
But they only thought God loved those things which they decided were perfect in appearance.
Does the color of a sheeps wool determine if a sheep is pure and holy? Can you have a pure white wooled sheep and have it cover it's disease in it's body?
Because the outside looks good, does that mean the inside is perfect?
What if the outside looks like a serpent? 
That's why the kingdom got taken away from Israel. They only looked on the outward appearance of things.
But we are told to look at the heart and the mind and the spirit...and that is what causes the enmity between the flesh and the spirit...
How things are percieved as truth and lies.
So the Gospel came to the low valleys..the Gentiles and raised them up, and knocked down the beast which was infecting it with lies and brought it down to hell and the grave.
But it's not dead yet..it still has a little season to spread it's lies to see who will follow in that great battle between the flesh and the spirit.
and we have seen the end of the war, and we are Joyful and Sing praises to God for his great mercy and love.
So we have faith and we walk by faith and not by sight.
knowing that it will all work out in the end.
Amen!
hugs
lone |
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james
Bear Cub
Joined: 18 Sep 2007
Posts: 633
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:24 pm Post subject: |
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SS - I am a little confused about your response in that you said the 7th day Sabbath was part of the Gospel message. You gave Revelations 14:6, 7 as your reference verses, and yet when I read these verses I seen no reference to the 7th Day Sabbath. Can you help me to understand how you see that reference to the Sabbath in those scriptures ??
Thank you |
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