I will write my law in their hearts

Zathrus

We often hear arguments presented that the old testament prophetic promise that God would write His law in His peoples' hearts means that our actions should precisely mirror the laws written in the old testament, or at least a selection of them. Putting aside the question for a moment of whether merely obeying a selection of laws does anything to impress God, let me ask, is the foundation of the argument, that this passage means God will cause His people to rigidly adhere to old covenant laws, Biblically tenable?
Jer 31:

rory · Tadpole Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 27

Paul Says:

Romans 3:31 (NKJV) 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.

I like David Stern's Complete Jewish Bible too:

Romans 3:28-31 (CJB) - 28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of Torah commands. 29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn't he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles; 30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting. 31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah.

David Stern's commentary on Romans 3:31:

31 Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Sha’ul follows the rabbinic method, found throughout the Talmud, of anticipating a hypothetical questioner—and not so hypothetical, if one reads the literature of Jewish attitudes toward Christianity. Here is his argument: You might think the assertion, “ ‘Works of law’ are of no avail for salvation,” is tantamount to overthrowing the Torah itself—if you were used to thinking of the Torah as a rulebook capable of being followed mechanically without trusting God (see v. 20bN). For this very reason Sha’ul, in order to keep the attention of those who would otherwise reject anything more he has to say, addresses the issue head-on, answering in the negative as strongly as possible, Heaven forbid! (on this expression see 3:4, last paragraph) and adds: On the contrary, we confirm Torah (or “uphold” it, “establish” it or “place” it “on a firm foundation”). Why does trusting, which is the exact opposite of mechanical rule-keeping, “confirm Torah”? Because trusting God, and not mechanical rule-keeping, is the very basis, foundation and essence of Torah, it is what the Torah is all about. In saying so, Sha’ul does not exhaust the subject; far from it. It is his literary style, however, to introduce a topic briefly, allowing the reader to be filled with questions about it, and then return to it later. That is what he does here; he returns to the matter of how faith and Torah fit together in chapters 7 and 9–11.

Stern, David H.: Jewish New Testament Commentary : A Companion Volume to the Jewish New Testament. 1st ed. Clarksville, Md. : Jewish New Testament Publications, 1992, S. Ro 3:31

lone-traveler · Posted: Fri Oct 05, 2007 1:05 pm Post subject:

Zathrus · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:52 am Post subject:

Great points, Lone and rory.
The true purpose of the Torah was to bring man to Christ, and therefore to the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law. It was not an end unto itself, nor is Christ a means to an end, namely adherence to the deeds of the law. It is the law which is the means, and as the Bible says, Christ is the end of the law.

lone-traveler · Posted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:19 am Post subject:

In the beginning was the Word: even until the end.. Very Happy

Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

Zec 8:17 And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these [are things] that I hate, saith the LORD.

Mat 5:43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy.

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and [thy] mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mar 12:31 And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

Luk 10:27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if [there be] any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love [is] the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jam 2:8 If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well:

Gen 4:7 If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.

Deu 12:28 Observe and hear all these words which I command thee, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee for ever, when thou doest [that which is] good and right in the sight of the LORD thy God.

you see all these words and you hear all these words, but when you do that which is good and right in the sight of the Lord, then it will go well with thee... Very Happy

Do the works of the Law...Love Thy Neighbour as Thyself!

yeah!
hugs
lone

Zathrus · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:27 am Post subject:

Again, great points, lone!
Adhering to a code of outwardly righteous conduct to be righteous will not result in love, mercy and peace. It results in pride and judgementalism. The end of the law was Jesus Christ, Him in our lives, and His love in our hearts.

The question is brought up sometimes, if we have this love in our hearts, will our outward actions precisely mirror the deeds of the law of the old covenant? I think this question misses the point. While we are less likely for instance to lie if we love others, is it still possible that in some cases we could tell someone else a truth with the intent of hurting them with it? Sure!! And there lies the difference between living out of a motivation of loving others, and striving, whether we think it's in our own strength or by God's power, to just adhere to a set of laws.

Living in such a way as to love others, the deeds are unimportant. Loving others is what counts. Living with the goal of just obeying a set of rules, it's very possible (in fact it's inevitable) that we'll find ways of keeping those rules, while still acting in malicious and unloving ways toward others, and even justifying that behavior because we haven't broken one of our rules.

rory · Tadpole Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 27

From a talk I gave about studying Hebraic Roots:

d. 2 Timothy 3:16 “All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; 17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work.”

e. At this point in time, what was “Scripture” – at the time of these Pauline letters – the Old Testament, or better yet the Hebrew Scriptures were known as “scripture”. Hence All of the Tanak (Torah, Nevi’im, Ketuvim) – Torah, Wisdom and Prophets. Today, we have widened that definition to include the New Testament which is right and correct. Now, who here believes that “all scripture” means “all scripture”?

f. Now, how many of us have heard the following: “The Law has been abolished, It was nailed to the Cross…..?” And you can find scripture especially in Paul’s letters that appears to the reader that Paul is castigating ‘the Law’. Yet upon closer study, you don’t ever find Paul castigating the Law (Torah) – you find him castigating those who Pervert the Law into legalistic observance, required for Salvation.

g. Yet we see this – the very words of Yeshua the Messiah himself: Matthew 5:17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 "Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.”

h. Wait a minute – doesn’t Romans 10:4 say this: “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” ?

The word used here for 'end' is the greek 'telos'

teloß
from a primary tello (to set out for a definite point or goal)
Strong's Number: 5056

'Telos' is used in two other places in Romans, Paul's own writings use it as 'outcome'.

Ro 6:21 Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the (telos) outcome of those things is death.

Ro 6:22 But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the (telos) outcome, eternal life.

Notice in Romans, the very same letter, written by Paul the word ‘telos’ is translated ‘outcome’ in these verses.

Yet in Romans 10:4 it is 'telos' is rendered ‘end' by the translators.... When in fact that flies in the face of Yeshua's own words in Matthew 5:17-21. Could this be a case of presupposition by the translators - i.e. making scripture fit their theology, instead of making their theology fit scripture?

From the NASB - Ro 10:4 For Christ is the end (telos) of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

I wonder why they used a very different word?

What if it is rendered as the verses in Romans 6?

“For Christ is the (telos) outcome of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.”

Or how about David Stern's Complete Jewish Bible translation of Romans 10:4

"Romans 10:4
For the goal at which the Torah aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts."

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:01 pm Post subject:

OT
Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

NT
1Jo 2:9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.

1Jo 2:11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.

1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

1Jo 4:20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

Luk 17:3 Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him.

Is this a test...LOL...

Pro 17:17 A friend loveth at all times, and a brother is born for adversity.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

2Ch 15:6 And nation was destroyed of nation, and city of city: for God did vex them with all adversity.

Testing their love for eachother by causing adversity?

Pro 24:10 [If] thou faint in the day of adversity, thy strength [is] small.

Isa 30:20 And [though] the Lord give you the bread of adversity, and the water of affliction, yet shall not thy teachers be removed into a corner any more, but thine eyes shall see thy teachers:

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

1Pe 2:17 Honour all [men]. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

Who was that that had...iron sharpens iron in their signature..LOL..

Pro 27:17 Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

Ecc 10:10 If the iron be blunt, and he do not whet the edge, then must he put to more strength: but wisdom [is] profitable to direct.

Eze 22:18 Son of man, the house of Israel is to me become dross: all they [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, in the midst of the furnace; they are [even] the dross of silver.

Dan 2:35 Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshingfloors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

their there own swords used against eachother..
we are made to be swords to sharpen eachother... Idea

The difference is how we use those swords...
do we use them to help each other grow, or do we use them to cut each other down. Sometimes the sword cuts both ways...hmm..

Is it possible to draw swords on eachother in love?
But the perception is that we are always doing it through hate...some do draw swords in hate, but we are to be strong in adversity and overcome the desire to strike back in hate....
and that is the test... Wink

Dan 2:42 And [as] the toes of the feet [were] part of iron, and part of clay, [so] the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken.

1Sa 2:4 The bows of the mighty men [are] broken, and they that stumbled are girded with strength.

2Sa 22:35 He teacheth my hands to war; so that a bow of steel is broken by mine arms.

YEAH HUGS!!!

BEAR HUGS LOLOL!!

Psa 51:8 Make me to hear joy and gladness; [that] the bones [which] thou hast broken may rejoice.

Psa 51:17 The sacrifices of God [are] a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

Psa 124:7 Our soul is escaped as a bird out of the snare of the fowlers: the snare is broken, and we are escaped.

Psa 147:3 He healeth the broken in heart, and bindeth up their wounds.

Adversity is good..

Hbr 13:3 Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; [and] them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

Adversity...a means to bring us to the knowledge of how to love one another even when we are clashing swords..

Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in [his] brother's way.

what is a stumblingblock? something that causes another to fall? and what would cause thy brother to fall more than giving him a reason to hate?

Lev 19:17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.

1Jo 2:10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.

We are born in adversity, so we will teach eachother how to love even while adverse to eachother. Even if it means taking the long way round.

Those who love eachother whether in or out of adversity, are to set an example for those who haven't escaped the snare of the adversity of hate.

If you keep the law of love..then you can not break the law at all... Very Happy

It may take a few lines to get there, but it always ends at the beginning..cool huh?

BEAR HUGS...LOL

lone

rory · Tadpole Joined: 03 Oct 2007 Posts: 27

LOne,

Lots of dots in your post there, I am just having trouble connecting them....

???????

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:59 pm Post subject:

This is so cool!

adversity
From Wiktionary
English

adversity (plural adversities)

(Parody): A bottomless lake, surrounded by near-sighted friends. - 1904, The Foolish Dictionary
state of adverse conditions; state of misfortune or calamity
event that is adverse; calamity
Translations
A bottomless lake

From the beginning of the bible to the end there is misfortune and calamity among all mankind.
All mankind is the brotherhood. We are all flesh and blood, heart mind and soul. We share in a common heritage..humanity.

That misfortune, that calamity, that adversity can cause us to turn on eachother.
The law says not to hate your brother in your heart.
Because man is born in adversity it is only "natural", "carnal", that we react in an adverse way towards eachother.
We show this adversity through actions and thoughts of anger which lead to hateful, and spiteful acts of revenge and retribution.
If we keep the law of love God with all thy heart, mind, soul, love thy neighbour as thyself, love thy brother, love one another...you see the trend here?..LOVE

If we keep the law of the spirit which IS Love, then we do fulfil the whole law.

We can still be at opposites with eachother, but we are supposed to be in love at opposites with eachother. So no matter which way the sword cuts, we hold no hate for one another thereby fulfilling the law.

If I make you angry enough so that you begin to hate me in your thoughts or in your heart or in your words, then I have put a stumblingblock in front of you to keep you from keeping the law of thou shalt not hate thy brother in thy heart...I have made you weak in adversity, by causing you to default in hate.

But if we are strong in adversity, then we will overcome that "natural, carnal" instinct to hate, by loving eachother even when we are at odds with eachother.

So Love overides the natural law of instinct and puts us on a higher ground of spiritual law.

did that help?

Hugs
lone

Silver Surfer · Posted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject:

Zathrus · Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2008 11:14 am Post subject: