 |
Bible-Discussion.com
Private Bible Studies and Christian Fellowship Available - Ask Nobby
|
|
|
| Author |
Message |
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
 Posted: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:08 am Post subject: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
 |
|
This thread is meant to determine what the Islamic belief is when it comes to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
The Koran States:
| Quote: | | "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise." (Surah 4:157-158). |
Two issues automatically hit me about this:
1. Islam denies one of the most documented events of antiquity, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
2. Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that the Koran is right... the Christ was only made to look like He died (but it appeared so unto them). What kind of just God would do this? Why would He need to 'fool' thousands and millions... and subsequently billions of people by doing this?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
|
| Posted: Fri Aug 04, 2006 6:08 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: |
1. Islam denies one of the most documented events of antiquity, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. |
I'm not defending the Koran or anything like that, but exactly where are these documents?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity1 wrote: |
1. Islam denies one of the most documented events of antiquity, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. |
I'm not defending the Koran or anything like that, but exactly where are these documents? |
HERE is a short list. Notice who wrote them... people who would have gladly said otherwise if it were not true. (i.e. Josephus/Jewish Talmud/Lucian) There are others too.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6284
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:14 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Nine mentions is all it takes to be the most documented event in antiquity?
And then you look at the mentions themselves, and they're not even talking about the crucifixtion? The only examples that even reference the crucifixtion are 2 and 9. 9 isn't even contemporary, it's just some guy talking about what Christians believe.
Hyperbole of this level doesn't suit you, Trinity1. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: | Nine mentions is all it takes to be the most documented event in antiquity?
And then you look at the mentions themselves, and they're not even talking about the crucifixtion? The only examples that even reference the crucifixtion are 2 and 9. 9 isn't even contemporary, it's just some guy talking about what Christians believe.
Hyperbole of this level doesn't suit you, Trinity1. |
Oh... perhaps you missed the first sentence FFT. Read it again. The list description begins with 'short' and ends with 'list'. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 1:12 pm Post subject: |
|
|
Here is a somewhat more expansive list for you:
Cornelius Tacitus (55-120 AD), "the greatest historian" of ancient Rome:
| Quote: | | "Consequently, to get rid of the report, Nero fastened the guilt and inflicted the most exquisite tortures on a class hated for their abominations, called Christians by the populace. Christus, from whom the name had its origin, suffered the extreme penalty during the reign of Tiberius at the hands of one of our procurators, Pontius Pilatus, and a most mischievous superstition, thus checked for the moment, again broke out not only in Judaea, the first source of the evil, but even in Rome, where all things hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their centre and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of firing the city, as of hatred against mankind. Mockery of every sort was added to their deaths. Covered with the skins of beasts, they were torn by dogs and perished, or were nailed to crosses, or were doomed to the flames and burnt, to serve as a nightly illumination, when daylight had expired. Nero offered his gardens for the spectacle, and was exhibiting a show in the circus, while he mingled with the people in the dress of a charioteer or stood aloft on a car. Hence, even for criminals who deserved extreme and exemplary punishment, there arose a feeling of compassion; for it was not, as it seemed, for the public good, but to glut one man's cruelty, that they were being destroyed." |
Flavius Josephus (37-97 AD), court historian for Emperor Vespasian:
| Quote: | | "At this time there was a wise man who was called Jesus. And his conduct was good and he was known to be virtuous. And many people from among the Jews and other nations became his disciples. Pilate condemned him to be crucified and to die. And those who had become his disciples did not abandon his discipleship. They reported that he had appeared to them three days after his crucifixion and that he was alive; accordingly, he was perhaps the messiah concerning whom the prophets have recounted wonders." (Arabic translation) |
The Jewish Talmud, compiled between 70 and 200 AD:
| Quote: | "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu was hanged. For forty days before the execution took place, a herald went forth and cried, 'He is going forth to be stoned because he has practised sorcery and enticed Israel to apostacy. Anyone who can say anything in his favour, let him come forward and plead on his behalf.' But since nothing was brought forward in his favour he was hanged on the eve of the Passover."
[Another early reference in the Talmud speaks of five of Jesus's disciples and recounts their standing before judges who make individual decisions about each one, deciding that they should be executed. However, no actual deaths are recorded.] |
Lucian, a second century Greek satirist:
| Quote: | | "The Christians, you know, worship a man to this day--the distinguished personage who introduced their novel rites, and was crucified on that account. ... You see, these misguided creatures start with the general conviction that they are immortal for all time, which explains the contempt of death and voluntary self-devotion which are so common among them; and then it was impressed on them by their original lawgiver that they are all brothers, from the moment that they are converted, and deny the gods of Greece, and worship the crucified sage, and live after his laws. All this they take quite on faith, with the result that they despise all worldly goods alike, regarding them merely as common property." Lucian also reported that the Christians had "sacred writings" which were frequently read. When something affected them, "they spare no trouble, no expense." |
Mara Bar-Serapion, of Syria, writing between 70 and 200 AD from prison to motivate his son to emulate wise teachers of the past:
| Quote: | | "What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burying Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise king? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the teaching of Plato. Pythagoras did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise king die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given." |
And the following knew full well what a ‘Christian’ was and how it started:
Pliny the Younger, Roman governor of Bithynia in Asia Minor around 112 AD:
| Quote: | | "[The Christians] were in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verses a hymn to Christ, as to a god, and bound themselves by a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft or adultery, never to falsify their word, nor deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up; after which it was their custom to separate, and then reassemble to partake of food--but food of an ordinary and innocent kind." Pliny added that Christianity attracted persons of all societal ranks, all ages, both sexes, and from both the city and the country. Late in his letter to Emperor Trajan, Pliny refers to the teachings of Jesus and his followers as excessive and contagious superstition. |
Emperor Trajan, in reply to Pliny:
| Quote: | | "The method you have pursued, my dear Pliny, in sifting the cases of those denounced to you as Christians is extremely proper. It is not possible to lay down any general rule which can be applied as the fixed standard in all cases of this nature. No search should be made for these people; when they are denounced and found guilty they must be punished; with the restriction, however, that when the party denies himself to be a Christian, and shall give proof that he is not (that is, by adoring our gods) he shall be pardoned on the ground of repentance, even though he may have formerly incurred suspicion. Informations without the accuser's name subscribed must not be admitted in evidence against anyone, as it is introducing a very dangerous precedent, and by no means agreeable to the spirit of the age." |
Emporer Hadrian (117-138 AD), in a letter to Minucius Fundanus, the Asian proconsul:
| Quote: | | "I do not wish, therefore, that the matter should be passed by without examination, so that these men may neither be harassed, nor opportunity of malicious proceedings be offered to informers. If, therefore, the provincials can clearly evince their charges against the Christians, so as to answer before the tribunal, let them pursue this course only, but not by mere petitions, and mere outcries against the Christians. For it is far more proper, if anyone would bring an accusation, that you should examine it." Hadrian further explained that if Christians were found guilty they should be judged "according to the heinousness of the crime." If the accusers were only slandering the believers, then those who inaccurately made the charges were to be punished. |
Acts of Pontius Pilate, reports sent from Pilate to Tiberius, referred to by Justin Martyr (150 AD):
| Quote: | | "And the expression, 'They pierced my hands and my feet,' was used in reference to the nails of the cross which were fixed in His hands and feet. And after he was crucified, they cast lots upon His vesture, and they that crucified Him parted it among them. And that these things did happen you can ascertain the 'Acts' of Pontius Pilate." Later Justin lists several healing miracles and asserts, "And that He did those things, you can learn from the Acts of Pontius Pilate." |
What about GNOSTICS SOURCES:
The Gospel of Truth, probably by Valentius, around 135-160 AD:
| Quote: | "For when they had seen him and had heard him, he granted them to taste him and to smell him and to touch the beloved Son. When he had appeared instructing them about the Father. ... For he came by means of fleshly appearance." Other passages affirm that the Son of God came in the flesh and "the Word came into the midst. ... it became a body."
"Jesus, was patient in accepting sufferings. . . since he knows that his death is life for many. . . . he was nailed to a tree; he published the edict of the Father on the cross. ... He draws himself down to death through life. ... eternal clothes him. Having stripped himself of the perishable rags, he put on imperishability, which no one can possibly take away from him." |
The Aprocryphon of John, probably by Saturninus, around 120-130 AD:
| Quote: | | "It happened one day when John, the brother of James,--who are the sons of Zebedee--went up and came to the temple, that a Pharisee named Arimanius approached him and said to him, `Where is your master whom you followed?' And he said to him, 'He has gone to the place from which he came.' The Pharisee said to him, 'This Nazarene deceived you with deception and filled your ears with lies and closed your hearts and turned you from the traditions of your fathers.'" |
The Gospel of Thomas, probably from 140-200 AD:
Contain many references to and alleged quotations of Jesus.
The Treatise On Resurrection, by uncertain author of the late second century, to Rheginos:
| Quote: | "The Lord ... existed in flesh and ... revealed himself as Son of God ... Now the Son of God, Rheginos, was Son of Man. He embraced them both, possessing the humanity and the divinity, so that on the one hand he might vanquish death through his being Son of God, and that on the other through the Son of Man the restoration to the Pleroma might occur; because he was originally from above, a seed of the Truth, before this structure of the cosmos had come into being."
"For we have known the Son of Man, and we have believed that he rose from among the dead. This is he of whom we say, 'He became the destruction of death, as he is a great one in whom they believe.' Great are those who believe."
"The Savior swallowed up death. ... He transformed himself into an imperishable Aeon and raised himself up, having swallowed the visible by the invisible, and he gave us the way of our immortality."
"Do not think the resurrection is an illusion. It is no illusion, but it is truth. Indeed, it is more fitting to say that the world is an illusion, rather than the resurrection which has come into being through our Lord the Savior, Jesus Christ."
". . . already you have the resurrection ... why not consider yourself as risen and already brought to this?" Rheginos was thus encouraged not to "continue as if you are to die." |
And this list does not contain the writings of the folks who were actually there (NT manuscripts... which number in the thousands BTW), nor does it contain anything from the early church fathers who could of easily been disproven by contemporaneous people.
Yes... I'd say it was the most documented event from antiquity. Would you have another event to compare it too?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith
Last edited by Trinity1 on Tue Aug 08, 2006 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6284
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2006 10:01 pm Post subject: |
|
|
I've got a bone to pick with your examples, but for the time being:
Two examples (one of which is non-contemporary) is hardly a list, short or no. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:43 am Post subject: |
|
|
| FFT wrote: | | I've got a bone to pick with your examples, |
I would expect nothing less.
| Quote: | | Two examples (one of which is non-contemporary) is hardly a list, short or no. |
Being contemporaneous to the event is not necessary for a document to be creditable. However... and I would agree with you... it does lend more creditability. But... the bottom line here is the amount of and diversity of sources here.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:31 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | This thread is meant to determine what the Islamic belief is when it comes to the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
The Koran States:
| Quote: | | "And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise." (Surah 4:157-158). |
Two issues automatically hit me about this:
1. Islam denies one of the most documented events of antiquity, the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.
2. Lets say, just for the sake of argument, that the Koran is right... the Christ was only made to look like He died (but it appeared so unto them). What kind of just God would do this? Why would He need to 'fool' thousands and millions... and subsequently billions of people by doing this? |
The pressing question is, what kind of God would that to his son, to his beloved?
Who is being 'fooled' here? Surely not Muslims? After all, every 'wrong' religion is in essence, a result of somone/something 'fooling' the masses.
If you really want to know what Islam thinks about this I suggest you read:
Jesus, a Muslim, was neither killed nor crucified
Crucifixtion or Cruci-Fiction? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
The pressing question is, what kind of God would that to his son, to his beloved?
Who is being 'fooled' here? Surely not Muslims? After all, every 'wrong' religion is in essence, a result of somone/something 'fooling' the masses.
|
OK... let me make sure we are perfectly clear on this... ALL of the aforementioned people making the above statements, in their writings, before Mohamed wrote the Koran, who had nothing to gain by making the statements, who were basing their writings on what was known.... are ALL wrong because one guy... one guy 600 years later says so?
Where am I mistaken?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
The pressing question is, what kind of God would that to his son, to his beloved?
Who is being 'fooled' here? Surely not Muslims? After all, every 'wrong' religion is in essence, a result of somone/something 'fooling' the masses.
|
Where am I mistaken? |
Mohammad (pbuh) didnt write the Quran.
If I take care in spelling what you want spelt the way you want it spelt, at least have the courtesy to get Islamic names right.
Have a look at the first link. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 25, 2006 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
Mohammad (pbuh) didnt write the Quran.
If I take care in spelling what you want spelt the way you want it spelt, at least have the courtesy to get Islamic names right.
Have a look at the first link. |
Good answer... I'm not sure what question you are answering... but it appears to be a good answer of sorts.
Perhaps you were pointing out that since Mohamed didn't write the Koran... Quaran... (or whatever the politically correct way to spell it is) it somehow invalidates the mountains of writings indicating he was wrong when he wrote/dictated/inspired (or however it was conveyed) the Koran/Quran.
Are they ALL wrong or is Mohamed wrong?
Both can't be write... it is a contradiction.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Tiptronic
Kitten
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 143
Location: On the net
|
| Posted: Wed Nov 08, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Tiptronic wrote: |
Mohammad (pbuh) didnt write the Quran.
If I take care in spelling what you want spelt the way you want it spelt, at least have the courtesy to get Islamic names right.
Have a look at the first link. |
Good answer... I'm not sure what question you are answering... but it appears to be a good answer of sorts.
Perhaps you were pointing out that since Mohamed didn't write the Koran... Quaran... (or whatever the politically correct way to spell it is) it somehow invalidates the mountains of writings indicating he was wrong when he wrote/dictated/inspired (or however it was conveyed) the Koran/Quran.
Are they ALL wrong or is Mohamed wrong?
Both can't be write... it is a contradiction. |
Have a look at the first link. Again.
The Qu'ran doesnt state this as a simple "He wasnt crucified" - polar argument. Notice:
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise." (Surah 4:157-158).
So commentators would write what it appeared to them as. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: The Crucifixtion of Christ |
|
|
| Tiptronic wrote: |
The Qu'ran doesnt state this as a simple "He wasnt crucified" - polar argument. Notice:
"And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain. But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise." (Surah 4:157-158).
So commentators would write what it appeared to them as. |
OK... so it appears that they were ALL wrong and Mohamed was right, 600 years after the fact, without ANY corroborating evidence supporting his position, and mountains of evidence indicating that he was wrong. And... we are suppose to believe him instead of those who were there?
Also, why on earth would a prophet of God try to fool his friends into believing he was dead to begin with? This supposition makes zero sense at all. Can you please explain to me how all of this works out and makes some type of sense?
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6284
Location: Memphis
|
| Posted: Thu Nov 09, 2006 7:31 pm Post subject: |
|
|
| Trinity1 wrote: | | and mountains of evidence indicating that he was wrong. |
Now hang on. Do, please, describe these "mountains" of evidence.
| Trinity1 wrote: | | Also, why on earth would a prophet of God try to fool his friends into believing he was dead to begin with? This supposition makes zero sense at all. Can you please explain to me how all of this works out and makes some type of sense? |
"God works in mysterious ways."
Holy cow, Trinity1, how did you forget that one?
_________________
When Science was in its crib, Religion tried to strangle it. When Science was in its infancy, Religion tried to abuse it. Now that Science is grown up, Religion wants to be in its good graces.
Theology is philosophy/ethics for people who already know what conclusion they want to come to. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
|
FAQ 
Search 
Make a Donation 
Usergroups 
Contact
Register
Submit Articles 
Log in to check your private messages 
