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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:59 am Post subject: Gee, big surprise... |
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It turns out that instead of DECREASING the level of terrorist danger to the U.S., the Iraq War has INCREASED it. Nobody could have predicted that beforehand...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/09/24/iraq.main/index.html
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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lone-traveler
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 02 Jul 2005
Posts: 6364
Location: USA
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 6:49 am Post subject: |
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increased it or just made more aware of it?
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:02 am Post subject: |
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or given them a battlefield that's easier to get to?
Let's review....
Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland December 21, 1988;
February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center;
the 1993 Mumbai bombings;
the US embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania on August 7, 1998;
the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York, and Washington D.C.
the Passover Massacre on March 27, 2002 in Netanya, Israel;
the Moscow theatre siege and the Beslan school siege in Russia;
the Bali bombing in October 2002;
the March 11, 2004 attacks in Madrid;
the July 7, 2005 bombings in London;
the second Bali bombing on October 1, 2005;
and the Mumbai train bombings on 11 July 2006.
Being in Iraq doesn't make them hate you less, it just makes the commute shorter...
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:05 am Post subject: |
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| lone-traveler wrote: | | increased it or just made more aware of it? |
Isn't it obvious? When you start a war with a Muslim country, what do you think is going to happen? Is it going to make the 'moderate Muslims' on this planet like the U.S. more, or is it going to push them more towards the 'I hate the U.S.A.' camp?
There are a billion Muslims on the planet. The relations between East and West have never been good, but ten years ago, normal Muslims who heard the crazy Muslims preaching on the street corner could just shrug them off.
It's not so easy to shrug off anymore. Why? Because America has been dropping REAL bombs on REAL Muslims and has occupied REAL Muslim countries with REAL ground troops. If you're a normal, average Muslim, and you see America killing people JUST like you, what are you supposed to think??? How can it NOT push them towards hating America?
The bottom line is this: America is not allowed to use the level of force needed to solve the Muslim terrorism problem by violent means. The Nazis could have and would have been able to solve the problem using violence, but America certainly (and thankfully) can't.
You CAN use violence to demoralize an entire population to the point where it just gives up and begs to surrender to you. Just look at Germany at the end of WWII. America is (thankfully) NOT doing this. America is using violence, but the gloves are still on. All this does is anger the rest of the Muslim world. In a sense, the American strategy in Iraq is the worst of both worlds. The strategy is deeply flawed, both in terms of victory and stability in Iraq, AND the larger global issue of Muslims hating America.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:11 am Post subject: |
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Ok...so what's your solution?
I'll give you a hint, the radical muslims at the head of this train have a plan...it is the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate and they do not fear death, yours or theirs...so what's your solution P#s....
Live and let live is a Western Judeo-Christian concept btw.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:28 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
I'll give you a hint, the radical muslims at the head of this train have a plan...it is the establishment of an Islamic Caliphate and they do not fear death, yours or theirs...so what's your solution P#s....
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There are a bunch of 'solutions':
1. Try to raise the standard of living in Muslim countries so that there is a strong middle class. The best way to fight fundamentalism is by having lots of people who are relatively well-off. The problem with this strategy is that there don't seem to be enough resources on the planet for us to do this.
2. Start Muslim vs. Muslim wars in the Middle East so that they kill each other and don't have time to worry about us and our decadent Western ways. This was the old British way of doing things, and it is quite easy to implement. All you have to do is divide up maps PERPENDICULAR to resources and ethnic boundaries.
3. Cut our dependence on foreign oil. Spend billions of dollars pushing electric cars, and have half of all Americans driving them by 2015. All of a sudden we have no need for the Middle East anymore. We stop buying their oil, the price of oil tanks, their economies collapse, and then they can't afford expensive nuclear weapons programs anymore. Standard economic warfare.
4. (Hope this one doesn't happen.) One day some crazy Muslims do get their hands on a nuclear bomb. They blow up New York City, and America responds by nuking Tehran, Mecca, Karachi, Baghdad, Kuwait City, and every other major Muslim city. It would be very messy, but after all of the radioactive fallout settles, Muslims on this planet would no longer have any real power.
5. Try to encourage a reformation in Islam just like there was in Christianity. This would make Islam a more civilized religion. Of course there would be instant wars just like there were with Christianity, but we would back the reformed side.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 8:31 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Being in Iraq doesn't make them hate you less, it just makes the commute shorter... |
Sorry, I'm confused about what you're saying. Are you saying that America being in Iraq is helping to inflame tensions and increase the likelihood of future terrorist attacks, or are you saying that America's presence in Iraq is going to decrease the number of future terrorist attacks?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Pondering wrote: |
Being in Iraq doesn't make them hate you less, it just makes the commute shorter... |
Sorry, I'm confused about what you're saying. Are you saying that America being in Iraq is helping to inflame tensions and increase the likelihood of future terrorist attacks, or are you saying that America's presence in Iraq is going to decrease the number of future terrorist attacks? |
Sorry for the confusion, but that's what happens when I try to be flippant 
My point was that yes, being in Iraq is helping to inflame tensin and increase the likelihood of future terrorist attacks...however, that was going to happen whether we were in Iraq or not...generally, the islamists would prefer to go at a slower pace that maximized terror while minimizing risk, global guerilla warfare...but the target in Iraq is such that it is a) convenient and b) intolerable to them...they have to force us to withdraw from Iraq to gain momentum to carry the fight further.
My real point is...we are at war with a determined enemy. It is not a nation-state...It is a sub-culture and a "state of mind". It is virulent and deadly. And we're fighting this war with one hand tied behind our backs...most of our actions only incite more people to unite against us, but if we back down, they'll be on us like white on rice. Unfortunately, it'll probably take another catostrophic terrorist attack (like 9-11) to get people on-board the Total War techniques that won EVER MAJOR CONFLICT in the 19th & 20th Century...
Remember, the U.S. firebombed German and Japanese cities.....over 100,000 people were burned to death in Tokyo alone on 1 day. Then, when that didn't work...we nuked Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Why? To force an enemy that thought it was willing to fight to the last woman, man, or child that such a price was unacceptable. Until we're willing to go to that level...we'll continue to suffer the pain of a thousand papercuts daily.
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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Pondering
King of the Jungle
Joined: 15 Sep 2005
Posts: 1506
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
There are a bunch of 'solutions':
1. Try to raise the standard of living in Muslim countries so that there is a strong middle class. |
Nice idea, but takes too long and as you say, not even everyone in the West is part of that group. Harder to do when some nutjob (a.k.a Taliban or Al-Queda in Iraq militiaman) is killing the entrepeneurs for daring to run nightclubs, serve alcohol, or show American TV shows...
| P1234567890 wrote: |
2. Start Muslim vs. Muslim wars in the Middle East so that they kill each other... |
true, though those guys seem to have figured out that pointing to the American/Israeli devil is alot more cost effective than in-fighting.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
3. Cut our dependence on foreign oil. |
Here, here...and this is what I'd choose. Unfortunately the global economy is linked to oil and alot of Americans that don't fly public airlines are heavily invested (literally) in oil.
| P1234567890 wrote: |
4. (Hope this one doesn't happen.) One day some crazy Muslims do get their hands on a nuclear bomb. ... America responds by nuking ... every other major Muslim city. |
true...and doable without all that nasty radiation poisoning....
| P1234567890 wrote: |
5. Try to encourage a reformation in Islam just like there was in Christianity. |
Again, harder to do without a charismatic, dynamic leader. Seems like anyone that even looks like rocking the boat immediately seems to loose his head so.....
_________________
Links of note:"Review for Doubting Christians"
Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs
“You cannot strengthen the weak by weakening the strong...You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they could and should do for themselves.” - Ronald Reagan |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 10:58 am Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: |
Here, here...and this is what I'd choose. Unfortunately the global economy is linked to oil and alot of Americans that don't fly public airlines are heavily invested (literally) in oil.
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We can get around this problem. Electric cars are possible, and in fact they are much better than gas cars. They cost less per mile to fuel. They have no transmission, and rarely require any maintenance. They are faster.
Check it out:
http://www.teslamotors.com/index.php?js_enabled=1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
For 90% of the population, an electric car is all you need. We should IMMEDIATELY shift the entire transportation industry over to electric cars. We could all be driving them soon, and suddenly we wouldn't need the Middle East anymore. It will also help with global warming, which is a MUCH greater threat than terrorism.
Electric cars are coming; there is no force on Earth that can stop them. The oil companies will sure as hell try to delay it as long as possible, though (and having presidents and vice presidents and Condoleeza Rices that used to work in the oil industry running the country doesn't help...).
Anyways, buy a pure electric car as soon as you can. I know that I'm going to!
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1563
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
We can get around this problem. Electric cars are possible, and in fact they are much better than gas cars. They cost less per mile to fuel. They have no transmission, and rarely require any maintenance. They are faster.
. . .
Electric cars are coming; there is no force on Earth that can stop them. The oil companies will sure as hell try to delay it as long as possible, though (and having presidents and vice presidents and Condoleeza Rices that used to work in the oil industry running the country doesn't help...).
Anyways, buy a pure electric car as soon as you can. I know that I'm going to! |
Electric cars rely on oil, too (manufacture, maintenance, charging)...
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8218
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 11:54 am Post subject: |
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| Ana wrote: |
Electric cars rely on oil, too (manufacture, maintenance, charging)... |
This is partly true. But the maintenance is next to zero, and the charging just uses electricity, which can come from any source. Most of the electricity in the U.S. is coal or nuclear, neither of which we need the Middle East for.
The bottom line: electric cars use WAY less oil than normal cars. If every American (or even better, every Westerner) drove an electric car, then we definitely wouldn't need Mid East oil. We would be able to leave that entire area alone, and let their economies collapse. They would then no longer have the resources needed to build nuclear weapons, and they wouldn't be a threat to us anymore.
But even more importantly, we would totally help stop global warming.
To me it seems like a no-brainer. It would solve all of the world's major environmental problems as well as all of America's national security problems. The fact that this plan wasn't implemented 20 years ago (let alone yesterday) just shows how beholden the politicians in charge have been to the oil industry.
Oil is poison and we need to wean ourselves off of it.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Ana
King of the Jungle
Joined: 10 Mar 2006
Posts: 1563
Location: BC
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 12:10 pm Post subject: |
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| P1234567890 wrote: |
Oil is poison and we need to wean ourselves off of it. |
I agree 100%
_________________
Truth doesn't care about theology, and theology doesn't care about truth.
Ana's Bananas |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: |
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| Pondering wrote: | or given them a battlefield that's easier to get to?
Let's review....
Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland December 21, 1988;
February 1993 bombing of the World Trade Center;
the 1993 Mumbai bombings;
the US embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania on August 7, 1998;
the September 11, 2001 attacks in New York, and Washington D.C.
the Passover Massacre on March 27, 2002 in Netanya, Israel;
the Moscow theatre siege and the Beslan school siege in Russia;
the Bali bombing in October 2002;
the March 11, 2004 attacks in Madrid;
the July 7, 2005 bombings in London;
the second Bali bombing on October 1, 2005;
and the Mumbai train bombings on 11 July 2006.
Being in Iraq doesn't make them hate you less, it just makes the commute shorter... |
and I thought I knew the history of this sorrid story... kudos Pondering! Well done!
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: Re: Gee, big surprise... |
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Lets review your article P.. shall?
First.. CNN... after going to that website I seem somewhat violated. Kinda like visiting Talk Origins... but just my personal preferences...
Second - source for the article...
| Quote: | | A classified intelligence report concludes that the Iraq war has worsened the terrorist threat to the United States, U.S. officials told CNN Sunday. |
Ok.. here we have classified report being leaked to the press, which is illegal... this alone doesn't seem to bother anyone anymore as this comes along with the leaks about our eavesdropping, Cheney's home address, etc...
Then we have this:
| Quote: | | Citing officials familiar with the report, The New York Times said the document "attributes a more direct role to the Iraq war in fueling radicalism than that presented either in recent White House documents or in a report released Wednesday by the House Intelligence Committee." |
The New York Times... nuf said... however, if I were privy to this document, and wanted to leak information 43 days prior to an election (kinda sorta like.. oh I don't know... some forged documents about a Presidential candidate) but if I didn't like Bush and wanted to take something out of context... well... why not?
This is absolutely disgusting... how people are failing to even critically analyze this deal...
but... then comes this:
| Quote: | | Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte, in a written statement Sunday, warned that any news report that includes "only a small handful of those judgments distorts the broad strategic framework the NIE is assessing -- in this case, trends in global terrorism." |
Which no one seems to want to discuss!!! Anyone want to discuss the source for this leak? What the NYT has done before with 'classified' (which doesn't matter to them) material before, and how what has been found in these documents and programs after the fact is never really anything close to what they initially report.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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