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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8213
Location: Victoria, Canada
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 Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2006 4:56 pm Post subject: Evolution Lessons |
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This post goes out to all of the creationists here. I suspect that many of you have absolutely no idea what the theory of evolution actually is. I think that most of you have never actually been taught it properly. The purpose of this thread is to teach you guys what evolutionists ACTUALLY claim, rather than the propaganda against evolution that you've probably heard.
I was thinking about how to best do this... Let's try the following method, and see how it works out. I challenge any creationist here to answer the following questions. This is a test to see how closely your notions of what scientists believe match what scientists actually believe. (Do you know your enemy???) Please answer any or all of these questions in your own words:
1. What is microevolution? Is microevolution fact? Are there any examples of microevolution?
2. What is macroevolution?
3. What is abiogenesis?
4. What is natural selection?
5. What is 'descent with modification'?
6. What is the role of DNA and random mutation in macroevolution?
7. What do scientists consider to be the three strongest pieces of evidence in favor of macroevolution?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7003
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:52 am Post subject: |
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Hmmmm....
The title says "Lesson", but the post reeks of 'Test"....
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JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6283
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 10:42 am Post subject: |
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In college, you can "test out" of a class if you already know the material it covers. If you don't do well on the test, you have to take the class after all.
This seems like kind of the same thing. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8213
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:29 pm Post subject: |
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| RevJP wrote: | Hmmmm....
The title says "Lesson", but the post reeks of 'Test".... |
They are lessons in the sense that the purpose of this thread is to teach and learn. My way of figuring out what to teach is by first figuring out what points about evolution people are confused about...
So what do you say, RevJP; want to try your hand at the test? Remember, no Googling for answers; it all has to be in your own words! You also don't have to answer all of the questions. Answer whichever one(s) you want.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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| FFT wrote: | In college, you can "test out" of a class if you already know the material it covers. If you don't do well on the test, you have to take the class after all.
This seems like kind of the same thing. |
"CLEP" - College Level Examination Program. 
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Evolution Lessons |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | This post goes out to all of the creationists here. |
I am assuming this includes yours truly... perhaps especially me. 
| Quote: | | I challenge any creationist here to answer the following questions. |
If I'm not mistaken... this might logically be classified as 'trolling'?
| Quote: | | This is a test to see how closely your notions of what scientists believe match what scientists actually believe. (Do you know your enemy???) |
Hmmmm... seems the Professor here doesn't even know his... P... I don't consider you, or any other evolutionists (OK... most other evolutionists ) the 'enemy'.
| Quote: | | 1. What is microevolution? Is microevolution fact? Are there any examples of microevolution? |
Variations within a kind of animal. Absolutely there are examples... dogs being a prime example.
| Quote: | | 2. What is macroevolution? |
Not a bad question... but more difficult to answer. If you are referring to 'speciation’, I again would agree that this does occur.... however, that is only following the strictest definitions of science. However, if you are referring to the actual 'macro' level of evolution... amoeba to man... no, this does not occur.
| Quote: | | 3. What is abiogenesis? |
Life coming from non-life... or the spontaneous generation of life.
| Quote: | | 4. What is natural selection? |
Organisms best suited to their environment, who have the most reproductive success, are 'naturally selected' over those who don't posses the same traits or characteristics. The small differences that are 'naturally selected' are the result of random mutations within an allele.
| Quote: | | 5. What is 'descent with modification'? |
An organism that has mutational differences than its parent... it is descended with a modification.
| Quote: | | 6. What is the role of DNA and random mutation in macroevolution? |
This could take a while... the function of DNA alone could fill up several pages here... and mutations within the DNA (as passed down) could fill an additional 100 pages... the bottom line is that the DNA tells the biological composition of the organism how to build itself, how to form itself, how to replicate itself, and how to sustain itself. Small changes within the DNA, through chance mutations can and often do lead to the death of the organism... or have a neutral effect... which are often corrected from the same gene (of the other parent) when the DNA chain is forming.
The bottom line here is that what we observe in genetics points in the opposite direction of macroevolution and is not consistent with the exponential increases in genetic information and functionality that ToE requires to be tenable.
| Quote: | | 7. What do scientists consider to be the three strongest pieces of evidence in favor of macroevolution? |
 Trick question. This is completely subjective... go on ahead and tell us what you think they believe is... and then proceed from there.
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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hearsayheresy
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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1. What is microevolution?
That's when small organisms, like maggots, turn into another small organism, like a fly.
| Quote: | | Is microevolution fact? |
Yeah. Haven't you ever seen a grape turn into a raisin?
| Quote: | | Are there any examples of microevolution? |
Well if you have been reading what I've been writing, you'd see that I gave two already. Here's another: A sperm changes into a tadpole. Need another?
| Quote: | | 2. What is macroevolution? |
That is evolution from one large species to another large species, like a grizzly bear to a gorilla, or a cow into a unicorn.
| Quote: | | 3. What is abiogenesis? |
Well, any entomologist would break it down for you thus: A (without) bio (life) genesis (origin), thus we have the origin of nonlife.
| Quote: | | 4. What is natural selection? |
Natural selection is when I go to a bar and feel more inclined naturally to go for pretty woman instead of the hag. It's a sign of intelligence. Thus, natural selection implies an intelligent Creator.
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5. What is 'descent with modification'? |
That's just the fact that children always look a little different than their parents.
| Quote: | | 6. What is the role of DNA and random mutation in macroevolution? |
I don't do acronyms. English please!
| Quote: | | 7. What do scientists consider to be the three strongest pieces of evidence in favor of macroevolution? |
Easy.
1. Bigfoot (sasquatch)
2. Chupacabra
3. Piltdown man
If they're not the top three, the're still somewhere up there on the list, right? |
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FFT
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 26 Mar 2005
Posts: 6283
Location: Memphis
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: |
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| hearsayheresy wrote: | 1. What is microevolution?
That's when small organisms, like maggots, turn into another small organism, like a fly. |
Please tell me you're joking 
| hearsayheresy wrote: | | Quote: | | Is microevolution fact? |
Yeah. Haven't you ever seen a grape turn into a raisin? |
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theseldomscene
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Joined: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 7817
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:07 pm Post subject: |
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chupacebra's are real man...and unless anyone has spent some serious time in the caribbean or central america...they have no idea...  |
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hearsayheresy
Guest
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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What's the matter, FFT? Haven't you ever hear of a tadpole turning into a frog or an amoeba turning into a fetus?  |
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ekspiulo
Ferret
Joined: 14 May 2005
Posts: 123
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:30 pm Post subject: |
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hearsayheresy microevolution like you're talking about has always been known of.
But we can see examples of macroevolution even in old historycal texts.
Like when Aristotle talks about an acorn changing to reach perfection and becoming an oak tree. This is macroevolution although it starts as microevolution and evolves into macroevolution
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"The obvious must be observed and re-observed and argued for. This is a thankless job." - Sam Harris |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8213
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:04 pm Post subject: |
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| ekspiulo wrote: |
But we can see examples of macroevolution even in old historycal texts.
Like when Aristotle talks about an acorn changing to reach perfection and becoming an oak tree. This is macroevolution although it starts as microevolution and evolves into macroevolution |
Your clarity of thought is inspiring! You cut right through all of the confusion and get to the heart of the matter!
What is an electronic teacher to do when his electronic class gets unruly?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8213
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Tue Sep 12, 2006 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Evolution Lessons |
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Trinity, you did pretty well; I'm impressed. But what is an allele?
| Trinity1 wrote: |
| Quote: | | 7. What do scientists consider to be the three strongest pieces of evidence in favor of macroevolution? |
Trick question. This is completely subjective... go on ahead and tell us what you think they believe is... and then proceed from there. |
No seriously, I'd like to hear
a) what you think scientists think is the best evidence, and
b) what you think is the best evidence for macro evolution.
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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Trinity1
Emperor of the World
Joined: 02 Apr 2006
Posts: 3123
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| Posted: Wed Sep 13, 2006 4:53 pm Post subject: Re: Evolution Lessons |
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| P1234567890 wrote: | | Trinity, you did pretty well; I'm impressed. But what is an allele? |
Dictionary.com:
| Quote: | | any of several forms of a gene, usually arising through mutation, that are responsible for hereditary variation. |
| P wrote: | No seriously, I'd like to hear
a) what you think scientists think is the best evidence, and
b) what you think is the best evidence for macro evolution. |
P... I honestly have no earthly idea? It hcanges from week to week to begin with... but.. if I had to guess I would say:
1. Endogenous retroviruses
2. Homogolous fossils
3. and... oh... I don't know... a bacteria that digests nylon waste products?
Help me out here P... I have no idea what you are looking for...
_________________
Exodus 20:11 "For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them..."
‘The German Führer, as I have consistently maintained, is an evolutionist; he has consciously sought to make the practice of Germany conform to the theory of evolution.’ Sir Arthur Keith |
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P1234567890
Emperor of the Universe
Joined: 11 Mar 2006
Posts: 8213
Location: Victoria, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2006 3:58 am Post subject: Re: Evolution Lessons |
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| Trinity1 wrote: |
P... I honestly have no earthly idea? It hcanges from week to week to begin with... but.. if I had to guess I would say:
1. Endogenous retroviruses
2. Homogolous fossils
3. and... oh... I don't know... a bacteria that digests nylon waste products?
Help me out here P... I have no idea what you are looking for... |
I just want to know if you know what evolutionary biologists consider to be the best evidence for evolution. You know a lot about evolution; you can explain the definitions and the details very well.
But when I ask if you know what scientists think is the best evidence, then you start giving strange answers. For one, it certainly doesn't change from week to week. Stephen J. Gould wrote a book in 1983 called "Hen's Teeth and Horses' Toes" in which he describes what he considers to be the best evidence for macroevolution, and his opinions are highly relevant today.
So basically, when it comes to knowing a little bit about evolution (i.e. "knowing your enemy"), I have to admit that you've done your homework. However, it seems as if you really haven't put a lot of time into trying to understand what scientists think, because you don't seem to be aware of their favorite arguments.
Incidentally, your answers
| Quote: | 1. Endogenous retroviruses
2. Homogolous fossils
3. and... oh... I don't know... a bacteria that digests nylon waste products? |
weren't totally bad (I don't know about # 3). Homologous fossils are probably the best one. But there are a few other pieces of evidence that evolutionary biologists almost ALWAYS mention when trying to prove that macroevolution is fact... Want to take another shot at it?
_________________
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction."
-Blaise Pascal
"...with or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil -that takes religion..."
-Steven Weinberg
"I would bless my children with your destruction instead."
-Someone who shall remain anonymous. |
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