Deity of Christ Denied

Ron · Posted: Sat Feb 07, 2004 8:32 pm Post subject: Deity of Christ Denied

I want to post some material on Jehovah's Witness history and doctrine. I will do this in small threads so that anyone disputing the material can remain focused on the individual topic rather than bouncing around.

This thread will focus on the deity of Christ and Scriptural references Jehova's Witnesses use to support thier view.

DEITY OF CHRIST DENIED

JOHN 14:28
One favorite passage used by Jehovah’s Witnesses to prove Christ is less than God is John 14:28: “My Father is greater than I.” This verse refers to the voluntary subordination of Jesus during His earthly life when He willingly placed Himself in submission to the Father. It says nothing about
His nature, only His temporary rank on earth. Thus, the "greater than" refers to His position rather than His person.

COLOSSIANS 1:15
Jesus is called the "firstborn" of all creation in Colossians 1:15. The. Watchtower takes this to mean "first created." However, the passage itself states that Christ is the Creator of all things (verses 16 and 17), not a created being. The title firstborn refers to His preeminent position, not
that He is Jehovah's "first creation."

In Revelation 1:5 and Colossians 1:8, Christ is referred to as the "firstborn from the dead." It is obvious that the literal sense of the word cannot be used here. Also it cannot be used as the first to be raised from the dead. It can only mean preeminence or sovereignty, in that Christ was the first to be raised from the dead by His own power and to be exalted to immortality, as the context in both cases corroborates.

The Witnesses try to substantiate their doctrine of Christ being one of the creation by deliberate insertion of a word for which there is no basis in the Greek text. A clear example occurs here in The New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Colossians 1:16,17, which is pertinent to this discussion ... “because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or
governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before a [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist.”

The word other has been inserted all the way through the passage unjustly. There is no equivalent word in the Greek text and no reputable translation includes it. When it is considered that the Jehovah's Witnesses assume Jesus Christ to be a created being, it is easy to understand why they insert "other."

The Greek solely states, "He is before all things and by him all things hold together," Christ is the Creator of everything that has existence, material or immaterial, and therefore He cannot Himself be a creature.

However, when the word other is unwarrantedly interjected four times, it alters the thought to imply that Christ is the author of all created things, with the exception of one, Himself, who the Watchtower Society says was created. A footnote in the New World Translation reads: "All
other: as at Luke 13:2,4 and elsewhere."

The reference here to Luke 13:2,4 corresponds to the Lord's question about the Galileans whom Pilate had killed, and the eighteen men who were slain by the failing tower of Siloam. He asks, "Do you suppose that these Galileans were greater sinners than all other Galileans?" and, "Or do
you suppose that these 18. . . were worse culprits than all [the other- NWT] men who live in Jerusalem?" (NASB)

The reason for the inclusion of "other" here and its exclusion in Colossians 1:15-18 is clear. Now here, though the original has no word for "other," it is plainly implied in the context, for, of course, these dead men were being put in contrast with all their fellow-citizens. However, there is
no such implication in Colossians 1:15-17 unless one presupposes that Christ Himself was nothing but a creature. But no translator has the right to presuppose on a doctrinal issue. If the text were simply rendered as it is, leaving out the inserted word other, it would agree exactly
with other New Testament passages that declare plainly that the Lord Jesus Christ is Creator of everything that has been created (Hebrews 1:10; John 1:3).

Again it is evident that the translators have taken special care to make the text say what they suppose it ought to say rather than to let it speak plainly for itself. Therefore, in light of the historical, literal and metaphorical meanings of " firstborn" the Jehovah's Witnesses are
unscriptural in the application of it to Christ as created. Jesus Christ, as taught in Colossians 1:15-18, is prior to, distinct from and sovereign over the universe.

JOHN 1:1
One of the readings of the New World Translation that has caused considerable outrage among Greek scholars is its totally unsupportable rendering of the last clause of John 1:1, "The word was a god." This translation makes Jesus Christ less than God, relegating Him to the position of a "created being" in accordance with Watchtower theology.

There is no basis whatsoever for this rendering, although the Watchtower would have people believe the contrary: “How are we to understand John 1:1,2, of which there are differing translations? Many translations read: "And the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Others read: "And the Word (The Logos) was divine." Another: "and the Word was God." Others, "And the Word was a god." Since we have examined so much of what John wrote about Jesus who was the Word made flesh, we are now in a position to determine which of those several translations is correct. It means our salvation.”

This is a misleading statement because it gives the impression that other translations agree with their rendering when the opposite is true. There are no reputable authorities or translations that support the reading, "The Word was a god."

The grammatical explanation given by the Watchtower for its translation of John 1:1 is unsatisfactory. They contend that when theos (the Greek word for God) appears in John 1:1 it appears twice, once with the definite article [the] and once without. When it appears without the definite article (in the last clause of John 1:1) they feel justified in translating it, "And the Word was a god."

In the first eighteen verses of John's Gospel, the word for God - theos - appears six times without the definite article (vss. 1,6,12,13, and twice in 18). Yet, it is rendered God (referring to Jehovah) in each instance except for the last clause of verse one when it refers to Jesus!

If the Watchtower's translations were consistent, verse 6 should read: "There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of a god." Moreover, verse 12 should read "to become a god's children," etc. Why only in verse 1 do they refuse to translate theos as God (meaning Jehovah)?

There is no basis for translating John 1: 1, "The Word was a god," as in the New World Translation. It is a biased rendering that cannot be justified grammatically.

They do not want to acknowledge what is clearly taught in verse 1: Jesus Christ is God. Also, it should be observed that the absence of the definite article does not indicate someone other than the true God. The entry on theos in the authoritative Arndt and Gingrich Greek Lexicon states
theos is used "quite predominately of the true God, sometimes with, sometimes without, the article."

Even without going to the Greek grammar of John 1:1, the Watchtower translation of John 1:1 goes against the clear teachings of the Bible. In both the Old and New Testaments we are taught that there is only one true God (Isaiah 43:10; John 17:3; 1 Corinthians 8:4-6; etc.). All other
"gods" are false gods. Those who would acknowledge any god as true except for Jehovah God are guilty of breaking the first commandment: "You shall have no other gods before me" (Exodus
20:3).

By translating the last part of John 1:1 as, "The Word was a god," the Watchtower has declared its belief in polytheism, or the belief in more than one god. According to the whole testimony of the Bible, the Word (Jesus Christ) of John 1:1 must be either the only true God, Jehovah, or a
false god. The Bible knows only one true God, Jehovah.

JOHN 8-.58
In the eighth chapter of the Gospel of John, Jesus is asked by the religious leaders, "Whom do you make yourself out to be?" (verse 53). He answered, "Before Abraham was, I Am" (verse 58). His answer is a direct reference to Exodus 3:14 where God identifies Himself from the burning bush to Moses by the designation, "I Am." The Jews, realizing that Jesus claimed to be God, attempted to stone Him for blasphemy (verse 59).

The New World Translation mistranslates this verse by making it read, "Before Abraham came into existence I have been." The footnote to John 8:58 in the 1950 edition is enlightening: "I have been - ‘ego eimi’ after the aorist infinitive clause and hence properly rendered in the perfect indefinite tense."

This statement was completely false. So the Watchtower changed the note to read "the perfect tense," dropping the word indefinite (see The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, 1969).
However, this is also incorrect since the verb ‘eimi’ is in the present tense, indicative mood, and hence should properly be translated, "I Am." Moreover in the context of John 8:58 (8:42 - 9:12), the verb "to be,"
occurs 22 times in the indicative mood and the New World Translation correctly renders 21 out of 22. The only incorrect rendering is in John 8:58. Why?

Dr. A. T. Robertson, one of the greatest Greek scholars who ever lived, after translating ego eimi as "I AM," had this to say about John 8:58: "Undoubtedly here Jesus claims external existence with the absolute
phrase used of God."

The Watchtower betrays itself in its own Kingdom Interlinear Translation which contains a literal English translation beneath the Greek text as well as the New World Translation reading. In John 8:58 under the Greek ‘ego eimi’, The Kingdom Interlinear rightly translates it, "I am," but the New World Translation changes it to, "I have been." This inconsistency is striking.

There is no sufficient basis for the translation, "I have been," in John 8:58. This is another example of the scholarly shortcomings of the Watchtower. It obscures the fact that Jesus Christ is Jehovah God.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15

Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron

http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron

mijt1 · Posted: Mon Feb 09, 2004 2:11 pm Post subject:

) Does Colossians 1:16, 17 (RS) exclude Jesus from having been created, when it says “in him all things were created . . . all things were created through him and for him”? The Greek word here rendered “all things” is pan´ta, an inflected form of pas. At Luke 13:2, RS renders this “all . . . other”; JB reads “any other”; NE says “anyone else.” (See also Luke 21:29 in NE and Philippians 2:21 in JB.) In harmony with everything else that the Bible says regarding the Son, NW assigns the same meaning to pan´ta at Colossians 1:16, 17 so that it reads, in part, “by means of him all other things were created . . . All other things have been created through him and for him.” Thus he is shown to be a created being, part of the creation produced by God.

John 8:58:
RS reads: “Jesus said to them, ‘Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am [Greek, e·go´ ei·mi´].’” (NE, KJ, TEV, JB, NAB all read “I am,” some even using capital letters to convey the idea of a title. Thus they endeavor to connect the expression with Exodus 3:14, where, according to their rendering, God refers to himself by the title “I Am.”) However, in NW the latter part of John 8:58 reads: “Before Abraham came into existence, I have been.” (The same idea is conveyed by the wording in AT, Mo, CBW, and SE.)
Which rendering agrees with the context? The question of the Jews (verse 57) to which Jesus was replying had to do with age, not identity. Jesus’ reply logically dealt with his age, the length of his existence. Interestingly, no effort is ever made to apply e·go´ ei·mi´ as a title to the holy spirit.

Says A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in the Light of Historical Research, by A. T. Robertson: “The verb [ei·mi´] . . . Sometimes it does express existence as a predicate like any other verb, as in [e·go´ ei·mi´] (Jo. 8:58).”—Nashville, Tenn.; 1934, p. 394.

In some places the Trinitarians clearly manipulate the evidence. The classic example of this is, I guess, John 8:58. There Jesus said: “Before Abraham was, I am.” (King James Version) The Trinitarians pick up Jesus’ use of “I am” here and relate it to Jehovah’s statement to Moses in Exodus 3:14 (KJ), “I am that I am.” Because both Jesus and Jehovah used “I am,” they argue that this makes Jesus and Jehovah one. And the Greek root does say am in the present tense at John 8:58.

However, even their own theological grammar books acknowledge that where an expression of past time appears in the sentence, the present tense verb can sometimes be translated as if it has begun in past time and continues up to the present. This is also true in French and it is true in Latin. Hence, when the New World Translation says “I have been” instead of “I am,” it is translating the Greek correctly. (John 8:58) Yet the Trinitarians act as if ‘No, that’s not even possible!’ So I began to notice this misrepresentation of the evidence on the part of the detractors of the Society.

Ron · Posted: Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:13 am Post subject:

The Word Becomes Flesh - A cultural and historical context not based on a belief in Trinity or Fundamental Christian doctrine, but rather a view of the text through the lens of history and
culture.

The Greek term translated "word" was also used by many philosophers to mean "reason," the force which structured the universe; 'Philo combined this image with Jewish conceptions of the "word." The, Old Testament had personified Wisdom (Prov 8 ), and ancient Judaism eventually identified personified Wisdom, the Word and the Law (the Torah).

By calling Jesus "the Word," John calls him the embodiment of all God's revelation in the Scriptures and thus declares that only those who accept Jesus honor the law fully (1:17). Jewish people considered Wisdom/Word divine yet distinct from God the Father, so it was the closest available term John had to describe Jesus.

1:1-2. Beginning like Genesis 1:l, John alludes to the Old Testament and Jewish picture of God creating through his preexistent wisdom or word. According to standard Jewish doctrine in his day, this wisdom existed before the rest of creation but was itself created. By declaring that the Word "was" in the beginning and especially by calling the Word "God" (v. 1, also the most likely reading of 1:18 ), John goes beyond the common Jewish conception to imply that Jesus is not created (cf. Is 43:10-11).
1-.3. Developing Old Testament ideas (e.g., Ps 33:6; Prov 8:30), Jewish teachers emphasized that God had created all things through his Wisdom/Word/ Law and sustained them because the righteous practiced the law. Ancient Jewish teachers would have agreed with verse 3.

1:14 Neither Greek philosophers nor Jewish teachers could conceive of the Word becoming flesh. Since, the time of Plato, Greek philosophers had emphasized that the ideal was what was invisible
and eternal, most Jews so heavily emphasized that a human being could not become a god that they never considered that God might become human.

When God revealed his glory to Moses in Exodus 33-34, his glory was “abounding in covenant love and covenant faithfulness" (Ex 34:6), which could also be translated "full of grace and truth." Like Moses of old (see 2 Cor 3:6-18 ), the disciples saw God's glory, now revealed in
Jesus. As the Gospel unfolds, Jesus' glory is revealed in his signs (e.g., John 2:11) but especially in the cross, his ultimate act of love (12:23-33). The Jewish people were expecting God to reveal his glory in something like a cosmic spectacle of fireworks; but for the first coming, Jesus reveals the same side of God's character that was emphasized to Moses: his covenant love.

“Dwelt” (KJV, NASB) here is literal "tabernacled," which means that as God tabernacled with his people in the wilderness, so had the Word tabernacled among his people in Jesus.

1:18. Even Moses could see only part of God's glory (Ex 33:20), but in the person of Jesus God's whole heart is fleshed out for the world to see. 'In the Father's bosom" (KJV, NASB; cf. 11 side"-NIV) means that Jesus was in the position of greatest possible intimacy (cf. John 13:23).
Ancient writers often framed a narrative by beginning and ending it with the same phrase or statement; this framing device is called inclusio. In John 1:1 and (according to the most likely reading of the text) 1:18, John calls Jesus "God."

Lets move to John 8:58-59 now and look at these passages through this same historical and cultural lens.

8:58 If Jesus merely wished to imply that he existed before Abraham, he should have said, “Before Abraham was, I was.” But "I am" was a title for God (Ex 3:14), which suggests that Jesus is claiming more than that he merely existed before Abraham. This title of God would have
been fresh on the minds of Jesus' hearers at the feast: during the Feast of Tabernacles, the priests were said to utter God's words in Isaiah: "I am the Lord, I am he" (Is 43:10, 13).

8:59. Jesus' hearers do not miss his point in 8:58 and take his words as blasphemy. A mere claim to messiahship was not considered blasphemous, although it could be offensive; they understood him to claim deity. But their reaction to Jesus puts him in good company (Ex 17:4; Num 14:10; 1 Sam 30:6). The temple was constructed from massive stone blocks, not the sort of stones that people could throw; but in Jesus' day construction was still going on, and a mob could have found
objects to throw, as 'Josephus says Zealots later did in the temple and a crowd did in a synagogue.

God had hidden some of his servants under similar circumstances before ( Jer 36:26); here Jesus hides himself. Jesus' departure from the temple is portrayed as Ichabod: the glory had departed (Ezek 10-11); the departure of God's presence on account of Israel's sin was a common theme in later Jewish texts.

You see, when we read these passages through the eyes of the first century author and his audience we can easily and correctly conclude Jesus’ claim to deity and John’s belief in Christ Jesus as God.

It is only some 1,900 or so years after we find this false teaching denying Christ of deity and being God in human flesh creeping into the Gospel message. Are we to believe that this “truth” was hidden from the writers of God’s Word? Hidden from God’s people until revealed through Charles Taze Russell a mere 150 years ago? That does not stand up to the test of Scripture at all.
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15

Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron

http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron

DYKJ · Not So Newbie Joined: 07 May 2004 Posts: 9

1 John 5:20

"And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." - KJV

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true--even in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." -NIV

"And we [have seen and] know [positively] that the Son of God has [actually] come to this world and has given us understanding and insight [progressively] to perceive (recognize) and come to know better and more clearly Him Who is true; and we are in Him Who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ (the Messiah). This [Man] is the true God and Life eternal." -AMP

Jesus is God

Colossians 2:9

"For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." -KJV

"For Christ is not only God, He is God in human flesh." -NLV

"For in Him the whole fullness of Deity (the Godhead) continues to dwell in bodily form [giving complete expression of the divine nature]." -AMP

Jesus was God when He was on earth (Col. 2:9)
(When Jesus was on earth He was 100% man and 100% God.)

Jesus is God.

Radrook · Newbie Alert Joined: 18 Jun 2004 Posts: 2

Jehovah's Witnesses are not the only ones who believe Jesus to be the Son of God and not God himself. There are other groups that believe the same thing. I for one am a Christian who is not a Trinitarian.

I however, would not set up a place specifically to attack Trinitarians because that relationship is between the Trinitarians and their God. So I assume that Trinitarians are Christians and leave it up to God to correct any misunderstandings in the future.

Furthermor a Christian's mission is to preach the Good News of the Kingdom. I really don't see how this is brought about by attacking those who also accept Christ as the Ransom Sacrifice and pray for his kingdom to come.

To be honest, I really do not think that being or not being a Trinitarian is what will put you in good stead with the creator. What will put you in good stead is sincerely trying to do his will and leading a Christian life.

If you do not, then neither being a Trinitarian or not being a Trinitarian will save you. Just as not being a Witness or Being officially a Witness will not save you. Membership in any group is only that--membership.

Being of God's Church goes beyond church membership.

BTW
Here is an article printed by a group of Christians who are not Trinitarian:

Scriptures That Show That Jesus (Yahshua) Is Not Yahweh (Jehovah) Updated 11/16/02

It is not our object in this list of scriptures to refute all the arguments used by many who try to prove that Jesus is Yahweh. We simply present some of the scriptures that most definitely show that the Father is Yahweh and that Jesus is not Yahweh [his Father]

Jesus was sent by Yahweh, speaks for Yahweh, represents Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh [who is the Father] whom he represents and speaks for. Deuteronomy 18:15-19; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1

Jesus receives his inheritance and dominion (power) from Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh [the Father] who gives him this dominion. Psalm 2:7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; Hebrews 1:2,6.

Jesus is son of the Most High Yahweh. He is not the Most High Yahweh. Genesis 14:22; Psalm 7:17; 83:18; 92:1; Luke 1:32; John 13:16.

Jesus is anointed [made christ, the anointed one] by Yahweh. He is not Yahweh who thus anoints him. Psalm 2:2; 45:7; Isaiah 61:1; Acts 2:36.

Yahweh speaks to Jesus. Jesus is not Yahweh who speaks to him. Psalm 2:7,8; 110:1; Matthew 22:41-45.

Jesus is the servant of Yahweh; he is not Yahweh whom he serves. Isaiah 42:1; 53:11; Matthew 12:18; John 13:16; Acts 4:27,30

Jesus is given the power of life in himself from Yahweh. Jesus is not Yahweh who gives him this power. 1 Samuel 2:6; Psalm 36:9; John 5:21,25-29.

Yahweh [the Father] is the only Most High. Jesus is not the Most High Yahweh who is his Father. Deuteronomy 4:35,39; Psalm 2:7; 83:18; Luke 1:32; John 10:29; 17:1,3; Hebrews 1:5; Revelation 5:7

Yahweh appoints and gives Jesus authority as judge and to judge in his [Yahweh's] stead. Jesus is not Yahweh who gives this authority to him. Isaiah 11:1-4; 42:1; John 5:22,23,27-30; Acts 17:31.

Jesus is never described as the father of Jesus, and Yahweh is never described as the son of Yahweh. The term "everlasting father" refers to Jesus' role toward mankind that he purchased, and of whom he has become father as the second or "last Adam." (Romans 5:15-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21,22,45,47; Psalm 45:16)

Jesus came in the name of Yahweh his Father. (Deuteronomy 18:15,18; Matthew 23:39; Mark 11:9,10; Luke 13:35; John 3:2,17; 5:19,43; 6:57; 7:16,28; 8:26,28,38; 10:25; 12:49,50; 14:10; 15:15; 17:8,26; Hebrews 1:1,2; Revelation 1:1)

Yahweh never came in the name of any other than himself, thus since there is none higher, he swore by himself. -- Hebrews 6:13

Jesus' role as Mighty EL refers to the power and authority given to him by the Mighty EL that is mightier than he, the only true Supreme Being, Yahweh. -- Psalm 2:2,7,8; 110:1,2; Isaiah 9:6,7; 61:1; Luke 1:32; Jeremiah 23:5; Daniel 7:13,14; John 17:1,3; Acts 2:36; Hebrews 1:2,6.

No scripture says that Jesus was God Almighty in the flesh, although possessing the mighty power of Yahweh as did Moses, he could be referred to as God (ELOHIM, THEOS) in a manner similar to Moses. (Exodus 7:1; Deuteronomy 18:15,18; Acts 3:18-22) Neither in the case of Moses nor Jesus does this make either of them into God Almighty who gives them their power and authority.

This document is presented by Restoration Light Bible Study Services, P.O. Box 2360, Philadelphia, PA 19142. Permission is given to duplicate this document in its entirety, including this statement, for not-for-profit usage in Bible studies and general distribution.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

radrook, your post seems to be regarding the Trinity, not JW's, you are posting in the wrong forum as we have a forum specifically for the Trinity discussions.
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Zathrus · Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Deity of Christ Denied

MoJo · Posted: Fri Jun 18, 2004 8:08 pm Post subject:

Ron wrote:

Omega · Posted: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:35 am Post subject:

Raoooul · Kitten Joined: 10 Jul 2004 Posts: 128

Why is the denial of the diety of Iesus such a problem ? For the truth is that amongst Christian scholars the diety of Iesus has yet to be resolved.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7003 Location: USA

It may be unresolved amongst scholars, however, I'll place my bets on Christ and His own claims to divinity.

P.S. Before I'm am asked to show where He claimed such, please refer to the multitude of discussions in the Trinity forum, as there has been ample discussion on this topic already and the biblical proofs have been posted there, ad nauseum....
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rarndt01 · Tadpole Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 16 Location: Ohio

What did Jesus mean when he said to Mary that he was to ascend to "MY GOD"? Also in Revelation where he says all overcomers will be made as pillars in the temple of "my God"? Trinitarians cannot simply whisk these passages away and say Jesus was speaking of another person within God(singular). Why? Because Jesus said this was MY God, implying another deity greater than himself. Or else the words of Jesus make no sense.

There is no question the Logos who became Jesus as the man was and is divine or deity. For he shares the same divine substance as his Father who brought him forth before the world was. But this does not make the Son his own Father. But TWO divine beings who share the same divine nature and the same Holy Spirit.Rom 8:9-12.

In Hebrews 1 it says God said to God, thy throne oh God is forever. One being was speaking to another being. In Acts 7 and Rev 4 two beings are pictured in heaven. One is on the throne and one stands at the right hand of the one seated on the throne. This is what the bible clearly teaches.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2054

JESUS WAS CREATED.

Col 1:13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the [size=18]firstborn of all creation[/size]; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things;

JESUS IS BOTH FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION AND FIRSTBORN FROM THE DEAD SO THAT HE MAY BE FIRST IN ALL THINGS.WHAT WE FOCUS ON FOR THIS DISCUSSION IS FIRSTBORN OF ALL CREATION.

REV 3:14 “And to the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ce´a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,

THE BEGINNING OF THE CREATION BY GOD.YES JESUS WAS CREATED.AND THE FATHER IS GOD TO JESUS.

JOHN 20:17 Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’

ROM 15: 6 that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 COR 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,

11:31 The God and Father of the Lord Jesus

EPH 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

1 PET 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

REV 1:To him that loves us and that loosed us from our sins by means of his own blood— 6 and he made us to be a kingdom, priests to his God and Father

GOD THE FATHER APPEARES 18 TIMES IN THE BIBLE.

GOD THE SON APPEARES 0 TIMES IN THE BIBLE.
_________________
Agape,
TBax

lone-traveler · Posted: Sat Oct 29, 2005 7:17 am Post subject:

Christ the first creation of God in that.. in the beginning God created... and Said Let there be Light..
God sent Light, Christ, his firstborn into the world.
But darkness swallowed up the light, and darkness ruled until the Light was reborn in the flesh of Jesus. Like Light was hidden in the earth until the time of refreshing. Jesus's flesh is the shell that covered the seed. Like the earth is the shell that covers the core.
God-Father and Holy Spirit-Mother and Light-their Son.
The Holy Spirit came from God like Eve from Adam, She was created from God himself, and the Son is the offspring of these two becoming One.
And creating one from the one. So all is one. And the One is a part of the All. and these 3 agree in One.
Are they seperate? yes. Are they all the same? yes.
let there be no division among you, and what soever God has joined together let no man put asunder.

You can try to tear them apart but they still remain together all the same.

Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

TBax · King Kong Joined: 24 Oct 2005 Posts: 2054

lone-traveler,

You speak many word of philosophy that cannot be backed up with scripture.You also make some bold statements in which I have no idea where you get them.

Jesus is "spiritual light" not physical light.In Genesis,in the beginning God created physical light.I don't know why you are trying to equate that with Jesus.

The Holy Spirit-Mother?Where do you get this from?
The Holy Spirit always comes from God,it wasn't begotten.The Holy Spirit is not a person but Gods active force which can be poured out and is a possession of God.Acts 2:17 ‘“And in the last days,” God says, “I shall pour out some of my spirit upon every sort of flesh.
Since the Spirit comes from God it can do anythying God wants it to.

Regarding when Jesus said he and the Father are one, he meant united in purpose,and line of thought.Notice what Jesus said:
John 17:20,21 answers this.20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
So it has to do with united in thought and action.It is definetly not saying the Father,son and disciples make up God.

In Prayer to his Father who does Jesus recognise as the ONLY TRUE God.
John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you,the only true God,and of the one whom you sent forth,Jesus Christ."

The apostles believed the same. 1 Corinthians 8:6"there is actually to us one God the Father,out of whom all things are,and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."

lone-traveler,what do you think firstborn means?What do you think "the beginning of the creation by God" means?
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Agape,
TBax