Does Israel have a future? long read

epouraniois

Does Israel have a future?

This is the question, does Israel play a future part with the Lord. We find evangelicals are divided on this. There are those who say yes, that there is an overwhelming testimony of a future for Israel, and then there are those who say no, that Israel’s blessings have been transferred spiritually to the church, and the church now is the real Israel. The church is the spiritual Israel, and so, the people who hold that view don’t see any future for Israel as a nation. This is very important, after all, we are trying to search out the revealed truth as the Lord has set forth in regard to this Book, and we can’t afford to err on this. In Exodus chapter 19, God made some remarkable statements on what He was prepared to do for them, but it was a conditional covenant.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and a holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

There had never been such a thing before, but IF...THEN, they should be a peculiar people, set apart from all nations…BUT they didn’t, they broke the laws THEY BROKE THE COVENANT.

So, IF, this was all that God had revealed, then we should have to admit there would be no future at all, for the Jew as a nation, they didn’t meet the conditions, and they’ve got no claim on the covenant made with the Lord. However, we do find that later on God made another covenant, and we should want to know about it.

Jer 31:31
Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: {Now, is this the same house of Israel? Well, it must be because God references the first covenant}
Jer 31:32
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; {we can’t spiritualize that, it is a real people God took out of a real Egypt} which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband unto them, saith the LORD:
Jer 31:33
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel{same people}; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
{If God had of done that in the beginning, He would half to keep it, but He didn’t, it was a test. They haven’t got the law written in their heart, and we go wrong the same way, we must search for the truth and we still go wrong. But God says He will do this}
I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
{there are no if’s there, not if they keep MY law, but God says I will do it}
Jer 31:34
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
{and then God appeals to creation}
Jer 31:35
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
Jer 31:36
If {here is the first IF, but it isn’t for Israel, it is a challenge thrown out}those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me forever.
{note those words, “a nation before me”. This is not just a blessing of individual Jews being saved by the gospel today}
Jer 31:37 Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath,
{if you can do that, God says}
I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.

{what a challenge, nobody can accept it, nobody can do it, so there must then, be a future for these people, otherwise, we may as well close the Book, because God couldn’t be more emphatic and more clear}

Lets turn to the apostle Paul, where he is dealing with these people and their lack of response, their opposition to the gospel; their attitude covered all thru the period covered by the Acts of the apostles. And God had opened the door thru Peter’s ministry, and he tells us here why:

Rom 11:11
I say then, Have they {the Jew} stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
{in order to stimulate them, if possible, speaking after the manner of men}
Rom 11:14
If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
Rom 11:15
For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world,{notice the words} what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

epouraniois · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject:

Well, some say there is going to be no receiving of them, God is finished with them, but that isn’t what this says here at all. God has temporarily lopped them off, some of the branches, as God speaks of them figuratively, as to a tree. God is able to put them back again, and when that happens, its going to be like resurrection; “life from the dead”. Well, that’s what a dead man needs, if there’s going to be any future for him. That’s what the world is like, spiritually dead.

Its going to for a people, that THAT people are going to receive in resurrection life. Life from the dead. God makes it know in the OT, that they are going to be raised, they are going to know the power of God’s resurrection as a nation. And when this happens, it will be like, life, from the dead.

Rom 11:24
For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature
{the olive tree is simply a symbol},
and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
{this is the receiving of them back again. Now, he’s going to drop the symbol and tell the Jews plainly}
Rom 11:25
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
{if we don’t understand what the fullness of the Gentiles is, we can at least tell, that it is not forever, but only until something happens, and then after that}
Rom 11:26
And so all Israel shall be saved
{He makes it clear here, this is not the church which is His body, but ALL Israel shall be saved, this is his people here, they are my flesh, Paul describes them in chapter 9, his own kinsmen, all Israel shall be saved}
: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
{Still Israel here, Jacob! And of course, their only hope is they are going to have a Savior, the same Savior that saved you and me is the same Savior that is going to deliver them, He’s coming to save them; and He therefore shall save them. Do you remember the covenant, “I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more”; and when the Lord was here, He instituted, He said, this is my new covenant, in my blood which is shed for many; for it didn’t depend upon them, it depended upon Christ and that one perfect sacrifice that the Lord Jesus Christ made, and upon that basis, and upon the revealed word of God, that at the return of Christ, when they look on Him, whom they had pierced. That will be sufficient, at last, to bring them to a saving knowledge of the Lord Jesus, a nation usable at last, by God, to be a channel of blessing to the whole earth; for “all Israel shall be saved”}

Rom 11:27
For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
{well, that can only be that new covenant we’ve been talking about}
Rom 11:28
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election
{this is touching a part of the plan of God, they’ve got a part in this glorious plan, they are a nation that’s been chosen for a purpose}
they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Rom 11:29
For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.

Lets do get clear in our mind, what this word repentance is. It doesn’t mean to be sorry and to weep tears, it may lead to that, but it means a change of mind, a change of attitude, a "new man". So here, is a most marvelous statement, that God does not change His mind, it is a gift and calling given without repentance over His purposes. From this fact alone, we can see that God has brought them into His glorious plan, and He does not change His mind.

But some are teaching that God has transferred all His plans and all His purpose to the church, which goes flatly against what scripture has made so clear, stated so plainly, that He hasn’t altered His plan. These teachings that spiritualize the church into Israel, also teach that there is no literal kingdom for a 1,000 years, that instead, it is all spiritualized. So we ought to be quite sure that we are resting on scripture and not on the opinion of men, however good they are.

Jer 33:25
Thus saith the LORD; If my covenant be not with day and night, and if I have not appointed the ordinances of heaven and earth;
Jer 33:26
Then will I cast away the seed of Jacob, and David my servant, so that I will not take any of his seed to be rulers over the seed of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob: for I will cause their captivity to return, and have mercy on them.

God throws out another challenge. And so there can be no casting off for these people. I want you to see, that this is not just a couple of isolated text; its all over the scriptures, if we only have eyes to see, and hearts to believe.

Deu 30:1
And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
{that’s where they are now, and have been for 1900 years or more}
Deu 30:2
And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
Deu 30:3
That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4
If any of thine be driven out unto the outermost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5
And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.

epouraniois · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject:

This has never been fulfilled, there have been partial fulfillments, but not fully fulfilled.

Isa 43:5 Fear not: for I am with thee: I will bring thy seed from the east, and gather thee from the west;
Isa 43:6 I will say to the north, Give up; and to the south, Keep not back: bring my sons from far, and my daughters from the ends of the earth;

Here is God gathering these people, they have been scattered, but they will be brought back again. We are told in this very prophecy that He that scattered Israel, will gather them. This too, is all over the Book. And just as the first Israel must be the nation of Israel, so then the gathering of Israel, must be the same people. Would it be reasonable to say that He who scattered Israel will gather the church? It wouldn’t balance, it doesn’t make any sense.

Eze 37:21
And say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen
{that is the nations where God has scattered them}
whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: {this is a real land, from the river Euphrates to the Nile, this cannot be spiritualized away}
Eze 37:22
And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all:
Eze 37:24
And David my servant shall be king over them; and they all shall have one shepherd: they shall also walk in my judgments, and observe my statutes, and do them.
Eze 37:25
And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt{just try and spiritualize that}; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children's children forever: and my servant David shall be their prince forever.
Eze 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore.
Eze 37:27
My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Eze 37:28
And the heathen{the gentile nations} shall know that I the LORD do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them forevermore.

Now that’s just a sample of the exquisite scriptures where God says I will. I will do this for these people, and we see we are dealing with a God that doesn’t change, and what if He did? Could we trust Him to fulfill what He has promised for us? That raises a problem to horrible to contemplate.

Psa 89:2
For I have said, Mercy shall be built up forever: thy faithfulness shalt thou establish in the very heavens.
Psa 89:3
I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,

Can you place this in your mind? The God of Truth, whose name is the Amen, swearing on His name to David, that He will fulfill His unconditional covenant with Israel? Well, that is just what He did. It doesn’t rest on Israel, not on what they have done, or what they did not do; it rests entirely on the wonderful redemptive work of the Lord Jesus Christ and the blood on His cross.

Needless to say, there is yet a future for this nation. He is coming back to them, they great deliverer is going to save them, and that new covenant of grace is going to be put into effect, when “I” take away their sins. So our consideration in the plan of God; we must have a place for the restored, saved, cleansed, and finally at last, usable people of Israel. If we don’t do that, then we will bring our own ideas, and we are going to get nothing but confusion. How much better it is, to simply, like a child, just accept what God has said. We can be sure, then, that we have been guided into the way of truth.

In looking into this matter, I have noticed the phrase, ""the Israel of God" the church is the new Israel, the real Israel"". So often do they use it, you would think it would be scattered all over the Bible. Well, the phrase, “the Israel of God” occurs once only, and we’d better look at the context carefully.

Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
Gal 6:16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Now you’ll notice that this is not one company but two. "Peace be on them…and upon the Israel of God". That little preposition “on”, “epi” is repeated two times> We are dealing with two companies. The Israel of God is not even a description of all the people that are saved to this day; it was a description, of course of the faithful of Israel, the little remnant according to the election of grace, the few people who responded to the call of the kingdom and of Christ who had a turn of heart towards the Lord. Those who were saved, during the Acts, formed the Israel of God, the faithful Jewish remnant. It stands out as having never been used of any one else, nor was it used again. We certainly have no right to just apply it to all the redeemed for all time afterward without any instruction to do so whatsoever.

It is essentially a very flimsy basis to erect a great doctrine. Beware of one text doctrines; but if it is in God’s word it must be true under the given context. But if there is even one doubt about it, then we should turn to the word of God, and search the scriptures.

Where we find "the Israel of God", we find its direct application, to a specific people in engaging in their specific hope, and the term is never used again. Now, concerning the church, we read that it is the body of Christ, of which He is the glorious Head. This speaks of the closest relationship the Holy Spiirit has revealed. Of this church, it is not once written that their inheritance is anywhere but in the heavenly places. It is not once written that the shpere of enjoyment for this church being 'in the land', the same 'in the land' we just read of Israel's promise. Israel's unconditional promise by covenant and the sworn testimony of God. God who is trustworthy and knows the end from the beginning and cannot lie, and did not have to swear to David, but He did, How 'bout that? What a remarkable God. He may have been showing some humor with David when He swore to uphold His Word by His own Name, however, He had to do it, probably thinking about how stupid *sodish* His children are, that they would need this for comfort, for understanding, for reproof, being very forgetful as we are.

Israel knows there is a future for them. It is written. They having got the Son of God thing down yet, but they do know they have not been forgotten. It is the church which is divided on the point of Israel having a future.

In fact, I think it is fair to say, that thre is an overwhelming testimony of a future for Israel.

2Ti 3:16
All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness

And that verse my friends, is what we must do. We must re prove things. Correct them as being our instruction in that which is righteousness.

golfjack · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:53 pm Post subject: reply

God is certainly not done with Israel yet. We serve a covenant God, and nobody can break His covenant. If He could, then one must ask the question, can He break the covenant with Believers?

May God bless, golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 6:22 pm Post subject:

Nice observation golfjack, if the promises to Israel are not to be kept , then what reason are we given to believe the church's hope of being seated with Him in heavenly places?

And this is really the point. So many teachings are out there, so many saying we are to take Israel's blessings, placing themselves on the earth as kings and preists rather than acknoweldging the calling and most sure hope of the church in such passages as Eph 1:3,4; 2:6,7; 3:1,9,10; Col 3:3,4 &c.

There is plenty of room for all of the various callings and hopes are sure hopes, as they declare the purposes of God in this redemptive portion of the plan of the ages, to the end that He may have preiminence in both heaven and earth.

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him

Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him

Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.

Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, by (grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus

golfjack · Posted: Mon Jun 12, 2006 7:07 pm Post subject: reply

Have you ever really studied Romans 9, 10, and 11? I call this a codicil in Romans wher Paul takes time to address the Jews. I think what hhe is saying in chapter in 11 of Romans is that the remant during the Tribulation will be saved, which is mostly Jews.

May God bless, golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:44 am Post subject:

golfjack

A possible helpful word on Paul. You may be aware of these things, but perhaps then others may not be so aware of them. During Acts, they were expecting the soon coming of the Lord to save His people, bringing the 'at hand' kingdom with Him. This was a Jewish Kingdom promised to the Jews, the Hebrew tribes, Israel. They expected the man of sin to be made manifest and had the hope to be alive and remain unto this soon coming of the Lord. They expected to see all the fulfillments of Revelation in their lifetimes.

This did not happen. They did not, as a nation, have a change of mind, which is what the word repentance means, and why it was preached to them, repent, the kingdom is at hand, it is near. It was the very purpose of the Acts, the apostles, having their spritual eyes of understanding opened and preached to for 40 days by the risen Lord asks Him a question in Acts 1.

They knew what question to ask after all this supernatural teaching. Did they ask about the church then?They did not ask Him if He would restore the church to Israel. No, it was not about a church, it was about the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel.

Lord, wiltthou at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?

In any event, there are two main apostles recorded during the Acts, Peter and Paul. One, an apostle of the Circumcision, the other, an apostle of the Uncircumcision. All letters written by the apostles were written to Jews only, till Paul begins his outward ministry. (Paul preached first in Jerusalem) In every letter written by Paul during the Acts, we find alternating as to the addressee. To the Jew first, then to the Greek. This is how it is written because this was the rule of the day for the kingdom was one promised to the Jews, not to the gentiles. Gentiles, when there were finally permitted to hear the 'word of the Lord', they stood outside the synagogue to hear after Israel hears first.

Romans was the last epistle Paul wrote during the Acts. Acts is the record Luke wrote after Acts concluded with that dreadful quote of Isa. 6:10. During this 18 years of preaching where the gentile was enmity to the Jews, yet permitteed to hear the word of the Lord, Paul became, at the end, a prisoner for the hope of Israel. Paul loved his people very much. And by the time Paul is writing chapter 10, we find that all Israel had heard.

Paul began teaching in 44A.D. in such a way as to permit gentiles who were already standing outside the synagogues to receive the word of the Lord, i.e., that which had been written to the Jews, or Hebrews as it were. Although Paul healed everyone without question (& this was never based upon if the needy believed or not), but he never preached to anyone at any time unless there was a synagogue of the Jews established at the place. I think you'll find in every place, the gentile believer was already standing at the synagogue, and this do to the decree set forth in Acts 15.

To the Jew first, then to the gentile, until the prison epistles that is. In these he speaks of a new revelation, wherein he is now a prisoner of Christ Jesus for the hope of you gentiles...

During Acts, right up an into the last chapter, the evidentury miracles that followed the apostle, and indeed, all believers, were in full effect. Paul was healing everyone on the island. He is finally brought to the chief of the Jews and tells them he is in bonds (chains) for the hope of Israel. He says it is for this reason he is a prisoner. "For the hope of Israel". They didn't believe and the Salvation of God is sent to the gentiles and then Paul wrote the Prison Epistles in the next two years. The Jews were blinded as Paul had been telling them in Romans. He was in Rome, But the Jews didn't have a care in the world about Paul anymore. They were blinded and took their place amidst the nations. They became just another nation.

And Paul writes next that he is revealing a secret. A secret called the mystery. A secret that God had hid in Himself, and reserved for the purpose of that great spiritual foe in the case that Satan had finally found a way to destroy the hope of Israel. And Satan did beguile Israel.

All Israel had heard. Yet, they did not repent. They did not have a change of mind. Many Ot prophecies were fulfilled. The first part of Joel is fulfilled. The Jews were given the sign of the gentiles speaking to them in tongues, the dead were raised, the lame walked, the blind see, all of the miracle signs that followed the Jews, showing that God was still working with them just stopped.

Paul is sent to administer the salvation of God to the nations, not by the seed being a blessing tothe nations, but rather, this new company is revealed through their fall.

Some say the church that seeks truth for today is that same graphed in gentile group that God used to provoke Israel during those 18 years when the kingdom hope was still being held out to that promised nation, but there is no evidence of this. Where are the ones they are graphed in to then, if that is the case? You know what I mean? If the prophecys stand, then the tree was cut down, and anything graphed into a tree in my yard falls with the tree when the tree is 'hewn down'.

Israel has been likened unto a tree, and certain gentiles (of promise,i.e., Paul names them...her children) were graphed into the true tree Israel, albeit un naturally. The purpose to provoke Israel. Into emulation of believing non Jews. All of this is OT prophecy coming to a head in the most dire of all Israel's prophecies.

Mat 3:10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Rom 9:27 Isaiah also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved

Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Rom 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

We have only to turn to Romans 15:12,13, to see that Paul and the Church were still expecting the fulfilment of Isaiah 11 as well as Jeremiah 31. The ‘hope of Israel’ was still the one hope before them all.

A very real difficulty that some feel in connection with these passages is the fate of the believing section.

If the whole tree is cut down by the roots at the end of the Acts, then believer and unbeliever are treated alike.

Yet the believing remnant constitute a firstfruit, and are holy.

We must be very certain of all our terms here. If the olive tree represents the nation and its national standing, then whatever the problem may be, it is clear that, as Israel as a nation before God does not exist, the olive tree has been cut down. The believing branches, therefore, must have some other ground of blessing. If we change the figure from the olive tree to that of a divorced wife, as in Jeremiah 3:1 and 11:15,16, we may perhaps see more clearly that the believing remnant lost nothing when the national position of Israel was altered at Acts 28. Israel as a restored nation is represented as a divorced wife received back by the Lord (Jer. 3:1), but the believing remnant is spoken of as the ‘bride of the Lamb’ (Rev. 21:9). The ‘divorced wife’ is restored to the land, but the ‘bride’ is associated with the heavenly Jerusalem. There is, therefore, a great difference between the destinies of the believing and the unbelieving branches. In some cases the change was even greater.

Paul himself lost his national association with Israel when the nation was set aside, but he entered into a sphere of blessing so great as to enable him to count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ. Others would find their sphere of blessing set forth in John 14 to 17, and learn that though they were no longer branches in the olive tree of Israel, they were branches in Christ as the True Vine, and so had lost nothing. If we recognize that dispensational standing may change to our advantage, as it manifestly did in the case of Timothy, Luke and Paul, our difficulty about the believing branches of the olive tree will be resolved. Doctrinal standing is not in view in Romans 11. The grafting in of the unbelieving branches into their own olive tree at the end, represents the restoration of Israel’s national position ‘in that day’. Neither in Paul’s epistles of the Mystery, nor in John’s gospel for the ‘world’, can the olive tree be discovered. The New Covenant, and the hope of Israel, are in abeyance, and not until God’s good time will they be put into operation.

Hosea, speaking of the day of Israel’s restoration, uses the same figures under consideration -- the restoration of the separated wife (Hos. 3:3-5), and the spreading branches of the olive (Hos. 14:6).

Not to be missed is that the chief Jews at Rome use the word devorce ((Acts28:25)trans. departed) for themselves and the following apostles quoting of that dreadful passage as Isa. 6-10 adjudicates the nation unable to hear and unable to see. The salvation of God sent to the nations, they will hear.

golfjack · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:59 am Post subject: reply

Epouraniois, I pretty much agree with what you have said. Yes, the Jews are blinded until the last gentle is saved. The specific mystery Paul is writing about here is that all Israel will be saved. Why is it a mystery? Obviously, no one could have predicted this in Paul's era without divine revelation. There are thelogians today who can literally see physical restoration of national Israel before their natural eyes, and still deny that God has or will restore Israel.

Paul now shares with his gentile readers that the hardening of Israel is only partial and temporary. It will last only until the full number of Gentles come in (Rom. 11:25). Paul is using almost the exact words of Jesus, who said, Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled (Luke 21:24).

When is this going to happen? Could it be during Ezekiel's war as described in Ezekiel 38 and 39? Is this national spiritual awakening of Israel what Ezekiel refers to in Ezekiel 39:22, 29?

Some of my beliefs about end-times: I am pre-trib, I believe in the rapture. I don't believe in Replacement thelogy. As far as the when, I don't know, but suspect it could happen any time now because Israel has been restored as a nation in 1948, and we are in the seventieth week.

May God bless, golfjack

MoJo · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:09 pm Post subject:

So you guys believe in universal salvation, then ????????

Very Happy

_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

golfjack · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: reply

If you mean do I believe that everyone is saved after the Truibulation, no way. Like I stated earlier, I don't believe in replacement Thelogy, Spiritualizing Scripture, and A Calvanist view of the Bible, which believes in individual predestination, or limited Atonement. I have stated my case for Israel and haven't changed my mind. Do you believe the Church replaces Israel? I think you stated before, you haven't made up your mind.

May God bless, golfjack

epouraniois · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:48 pm Post subject: Re: reply

epouraniois · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:50 pm Post subject:

MoJo · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:05 pm Post subject:

epouraniois · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject: Re: reply

epouraniois · Posted: Tue Jun 13, 2006 8:35 pm Post subject:

MoJo,

The last thing I need is to get into it with a moderator, nevertheless, if I am to Eph 4:3, then I must note that Eph 2 provides the word create, ktizō. Create from two, one new man. Please look this word up and see that in every case it is translated create, creation, and so should it be here:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Now look at Mat 25:

Mat 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

Now look at the time of this chosing of Eph:

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world

If Israel still has a future, and it is the same kingdom hope and OT calling it has always been, then this is a different company being created. One where there is neither Jew or gentile distinction, becuase this is a new calling reaching to the limitless heights of the heavenly places.

This church is not graphed in again to Israel, or to partake of Israel's things. Israel is a stranger to this church. Instead, this church body is His body because of a chosing that happened before the foundation of the world and created only after He made known what this secret was, and that He had even kept any secret at all.

The word is create. The two were created into one new man. One did not merge with the other wherein one has preimenence:

Differences:

Eph 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,

When we see these words, ‘For this cause’, we immediately realize that this refers to something that has gone before. And this is the case here, and especially referring to the chapter before.

Paul has been describing a church here, that is reconciled, at peace, blessed far above all that is flesh, and the strife that is found in the flesh, and built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ Himself being the chief corner stone. And this building is growing together that it might be an habitation for the Spirit. There are immediately 5 things that are unique and readily discernible. They are different than anything else we’ve ever found in the Bible before.

1. Blessings that were promised are unique, because it is every blessing that is spiritual. That is different than they'd ever had before because they'd never had every blessing that is spiritual.

2. And the sphere of their enjoyment is unique, because the enjoyment is in heavenly places, whereas every blessing before this had always been spoken of as being enjoyed on the earth.

3. The period of choice is unique, because these were chosen before the overthrow of the world, whereas all other choosing had been since the overthrow.

4. The position is unique, made to sit together in heavenly places, in Christ. That is a high and unique position.

5. The unity is unique. Back in 2. 15, that the twain, the Jew and the Gentile, were created one new man.

It is all these things that Paul has in mind, when he starts out to say, “For this cause”. It is everything Paul has already been speaking about in the first two chapters of the first letter written after Israel takes her place amidst the nations, departing to have great reasoning among themselves. (Acts 28.28, 29).

Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfill the word of God.

God chose an earthen vessel by which He would fulfill (Greek pleroo, "complete") the Word of God. That's what Paul did - with the revelation of the mystery [secret] given to him, God has completed His word to the world.

Study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
2Ti 2:15
To cut straight, as paths; to hold a straight course; generally, to make straight; to handle rightly the Word of God, by acknowledging Him to direct the paths
In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. Pro 3:6

We are given in the OT and throughout the Acts of the NT God's purpose to establish a literal, physical, earthly, Davidic, Messianic kingdom, with Jesus Christ as the king of kings, ruling over the twelve apostles, who will rule over the twelve tribes of Israel, who will rule over the nations of this earth. This is God’s prophetic program for His people.

We are given in the Prison Epistles alone God's purpose to form a spiritual body of believers called "the Body of Christ", with Christ as the Head. This body will be perfectly "conformed to the image of His Son" and will rule and reign with Christ in the heavenly places. This is God’s mystery program.

The purpose for the time now present is two-fold and has to do with those who are in heavenly places being made known something of the manifold wisdom of God by the church:

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
Eph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

Let’s look at just a few of the many many mighty differences:

PROPHETIC
SPOKEN about since the world began
(Luke 1:68-70; Acts 3:21-24)

MYSTERY
Kept SECRET, hidden since the world began
(Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:5,9; Colossians 1:26)

PROPHETIC
Focus is THE EARTH
(Genesis 1:28, 9:1, 13:14-17; Deuteronomy 11:21; Isaiah 11:9; Jeremiah 23:5; Psalms 37:9-11; Matthew 5:5; Matthew 6:10)

MYSTERY
Focus is THE HEAVENLY PLACES
(Ephesians 1:3, 2:6; Philippians 3:20; Colossians 3:1-4)

PROPHETIC
Jesus Christ is THE KING of Israel and the whole world
(Isaiah 9:6-7; Daniel 7:13-14; Zachariah14:9, 16; Matthew 2:2; John 1:49; Luke 1:31-33)

MYSTERY
Jesus Christ is THE HEAD of the church, the body of Christ
(Ephesians 1:22-23; Colossians 1:18)

PROPHETIC
ISRAEL is God's chosen nation and will be given supremacy over all nations
(Deuteronomy 7:6, 28:13; Isaiah 6:1-5; Matthew 10:5-10;
Romans 9:6)

MYSTERY
In the Body of Christ, there is neither Jew nor Gentile (Romans 10:12, 3:22; Ephesians 2:16-17)

PROPHETIC
Redeemed Israel to rule and reign with Christ on the earth
(Isaiah 62:1-4; Ezekiel 37:21-28; Exodus 19:4-6; Revelation 5:10)

MYSTERY
The Body of Christ to rule and reign with Christ in the heavenlies
(Ephesians 2:6, 14-16, 3:6, Philippians 3:20; 1Corinthians 6:3)

PROPHETIC
Gentiles to be blessed through Israel's RISE to kingdom glory
(Genesis 12:1-3; Isaiah 61:6-9; Zechariah 8:13-23)

MYSTERY
Gentiles blessed through THE FALL of Israel
(Romans 11:11,12,15; Acts 28:27-28)

PROPHETIC
The chief Apostle is Peter
(Matthew 16:18-19; Acts 1:15, 2:14)

MYSTERY
Paul is the Apostle for this age of grace
(Romans 11:13; Ephesians 3:1; 1Timothy 2:5-7)

PROPHETIC
The number 12 is associated with Israel
(Matthew 19:28; Revelation 7:4-8)

MYSTERY
ONE is the number for the Body of Christ
(Ephesians 4:3-4)

PROPHETIC
Physical and spiritual baptism
(Exodus 29:1-7; Matthew 3:2-7, 28:19-20; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:32; Ezekiel 36:25-27; Matthew 3:11; Acts 1:5,8)

MYSTERY
Spiritual baptism only
(Ephesians 4:4; Eph 5:26)

PROPHETIC
Physical and spiritual circumcision
(Genesis 17:9-14; Luke 2:21; Deuteronomy 30:6)

MYSTERY
Spiritual circumcision only
(Colossians 2:11-13; Romans 6:1-6)

PROPHETIC
Atonement yet FUTURE
(Acts 3:19; Matthew 25:31-34; Romans 11:25-27)

MYSTERY
Atonement NOW
(Romans 5:11; Colossians 2:13-14)

PROPHETIC
The Goal: The God of Heaven to set up the Kingdom of Heaven on earth, Christ to have preeminence
(Deuteronomy 11:21; Daniel 2:44; Matthew 25:34)

MYSTERY
The Goal: To form a spiritual body of believers perfectly conformed to the image of Christ and through whom Christ will have the preeminence in the heavenly places
(Romans 8:29; Colossians 1:16)

PROPHETIC
This has been God's purpose FROM the foundation of the world
(Matthew 25:34)

MYSTERY
This has been God's purpose from BEFORE the foundation of the world
(Ephesians 1:4, 3:11)

PROPHETIC
This program has been temporarily DELAYED
(Romans 9-11)

MYSTERY
This program is NOW in effect
(Ephesians 3:1-11; Colossians 1:24-27)