I need spiritual help

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

I don't know if this is the appropriate forum or not. I didn't see anywhere specifically set up for what I need. I read in your forum guidelines that long, spam type posts will be deleted. I'm rather wordy at times and I did post this topic on another religious forum but I did not get what I need. If this is considered spam then I apologize.

I'm a rather private person and I would prefer not to disclose a lot of personal details of my life on a message board but I've been through a type of hell that has me feeling very alone in life. If I get comfortable enough here I might eventually share some of it but for now I hope that you will help me find my way back without needing to know everything involved.

I know that some people might be tempted to say that it's all a choice but I do not believe that's true. I know and read the Bible regularly and I don't live life as a bad person; I just don't have the ability to feel the love of God any more. I'm not able to believe.

The things that have pushed me away from my ability to believe might seem trivial to some. I don't want to debate the rightness or wrongness of any of it I want help working through the things that get in my way. I've done a lot on my own and I ended up in a worse state than when I started. I need to be able to post honestly and get help with the areas of struggle without anyone considering it an attack.

I've been in contact with many people concerning my spiritual crisis. I've prayed a lot but I am still unable to feel any type of faith, there is no assurance. As I was praying one night I came to the understanding that there are things that I want more than faith and that is most likely what is standing in the way of it. I've worked through so much on my own already but I'm still feeling very lost.

Faith and doubt exist side by side throughout the Bible. I've been told that without doubts faith would be forced and that a forced faith would be worthless to God so my doubts are not only normal but they are what makes actions born of faith more acceptable to God.

I want to share some Biblical text with anyone who is still reading this message.

The first one deals with people asking for proof:

Matthew 16:

1 The Pharisees and Sadducees came to Jesus and tested him by asking
him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 He replied, "When evening comes, you say, 'It will be fair
weather, for the sky is red,' 3 and in the morning, 'Today it will be
stormy, for the sky is red and overcast.' You know how to interpret
the appearance of the sky, but you cannot interpret the signs of the
times. 4 A wicked and adulterous generation looks for a miraculous
sign, but none will be given it except the sign of Jonah." Jesus then
left them and went away.

Then in Matthew 14:

22 And straightway Jesus constrained his disciples to get into a ship,
and to go before him unto the other side, while he sent the multitudes
away.

23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a
mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there
alone.

24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves:
for the wind was contrary.

25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking
on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were
troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it
is I; be not afraid.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come
unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he
walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning
to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and
said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?

32 And when they were come into the ship, the wind ceased.

33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of
a truth thou art the Son of God.

I will sort through these after I present the ones that have been on my mind. I would like to share from Luke now

Luke 18:
35 As Jesus approached Jericho, a blind man was sitting by the
roadside begging. 36 When he heard the crowd going by, he asked what
was happening. 37 They told him, "Jesus of Nazareth is passing by."
38 He called out, "Jesus, Son of David, have mercy on me!"

39 Those who led the way rebuked him and told him to be quiet, but he
shouted all the more, "Son of David, have mercy on me!"

40 Jesus stopped and ordered the man to be brought to him. When he
came near, Jesus asked him, 41 "What do you want me to do for you?"
"Lord, I want to see," he replied.

42 Jesus said to him, "Receive your sight; your faith has healed you."
43 Immediately he received his sight and followed Jesus, praising God.
When all the people saw it, they also praised God.

And one last passage before I explain why I selected these.
Mark 9:

14 When they came to the other disciples, they saw a large crowd
around them and the teachers of the law arguing with them. 15 As soon
as all the people saw Jesus, they were overwhelmed with wonder and ran
to greet him.
16 "What are you arguing with them about?" he asked.

17 A man in the crowd answered, "Teacher, I brought you my son, who is
possessed by a spirit that has robbed him of speech. 18 Whenever it
seizes him, it throws him to the ground. He foams at the mouth,
gnashes his teeth and becomes rigid. I asked your disciples to drive
out the spirit, but they could not."

19 "O unbelieving generation," Jesus replied, "how long shall I stay
with you? How long shall I put up with you? Bring the boy to me."

20 So they brought him. When the spirit saw Jesus, it immediately
threw the boy into a convulsion. He fell to the ground and rolled
around, foaming at the mouth.

21 Jesus asked the boy's father, "How long has he been like this?"

"From childhood," he answered. 22 "It has often thrown him into
fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us
and help us."

23 " 'If you can'?" said Jesus. "Everything is possible for him who believes."

24 Immediately the boy's father exclaimed, "I do believe; help me
overcome my unbelief!"

25 When Jesus saw that a crowd was running to the scene, he rebuked
the evil spirit. "You deaf and mute spirit," he said, "I command you,
come out of him and never enter him again."

26 The spirit shrieked, convulsed him violently and came out. The boy
looked so much like a corpse that many said, "He's dead." 27 But Jesus
took him by the hand and lifted him to his feet, and he stood up.

28 After Jesus had gone indoors, his disciples asked him privately,
"Why couldn't we drive it out?"

29 He replied, "This kind can come out only by prayer."

In all but one of the stories posted there was an element of both faith and doubt. In the first passage Jesus said that it is wicked to ask for proof. In that instance the Pharisees and Sadducees used their questions as a way to trick Jesus. That is the only instance in my message where there was not an element of faith present, and it's also the only instance where what was asked was not given. That makes me wonder if it's what we desire that counts the most instead of what we are asking.

In the second example the disciples had already seen Jesus perform miracles and already believed. They doubted that it was Jesus who was walking towards them and demanded proof. We know that Jesus loved the disciples and that could have been the reason Jesus was patient enough to do as Peter commanded but we also know that they did believe.

Peter was interesting in that he was given what he asked for but his faith was still wavering. He believed that Jesus had the power the command him to walk on water and he would be able to. At first he was capable because of his faith. I believe his doubts were self doubts instead of doubts in Jesus once he started walking on water and began to sink because he again called out to Jesus for help. The faith and the doubts were both there and they are what saved him.

In the example I posted in Luke, the blind beggar in Jericho believed. He believed that Jesus could heal him but he also believed that Jesus would heal him if he could get his attention so he called out for help in faith that what he wanted would be done. It was the people of Jericho who expressed doubts in this story. The people of Jericho judged the blind man unworthy and tried to keep him from getting what he needed.

In the example from Mark the father believed enough to ask for help for his son. He believed on some level, at least enough to ask for help for his child. This story is a lot like where I am right now. The father HAD to believe on some level or he would not have asked Jesus for help. He did express doubts, as Jesus himself noted when he said: 22 "It has often thrown him into
fire or water to kill him. But if you can do anything, take pity on us
and help us." The father called out "I do believe; help me overcome my unbelief!" and he was granted faith enough for Jesus to heal his son.

This might be circular thinking but if I didn't have some basis in faith I would not be concerned with any of this. I would not care if there was not an element of faith. I'm calling out that I do believe, help me overcome my unbelief and nothing is happening. I'm putting out the effort, I'm reaching out and praying but I'm still not getting what I need. When the disciples asked Jesus how he could help the boy after they had failed Jesus answered: "This kind can come out only by prayer."

There is so much cynicism on my part. If it were a matter of choice I would not have the cynicism at all, it isn't something that I have ever wanted. I never made the choice to be where I am in faith. I tried very much to hold onto my faith as my life changed over the years but it left me even with my efforts.

It is my hope that someone has read this entire message and can help me. It isn't a lack of desire on my part, or a lack of effort. If anyone can identify with this I would appreciate input, or even a prayer if you would. If any of you would be more comfortable discussing this through email I will give you my email address through a private message.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 9:41 am Post subject:

Hello SarahJane,
Welcome to the board!!

I'm Lone, and well probably not the best one to help you with the answers, as I am seeking also. As we all are true?
But I can give you my friendship, my ear, my heart, and my hope that here you will find what you are seeking.

Faith is hard because it is not something we can test with our senses. We can't touch it or smell it or see it with our eyes, we can't taste it or hear it with our ears.
But we can percieve it, sense it inside ourselves and percieve it in the actions of others.

Having faith in the Love of God....
knowing that God loves you and only wants the best for you. And knowing that even though we make mistakes he still stands with us and picks us up when we fall.
God knows we are as little children and most of us are still just learning how to put one foot in front of the other. We still have trouble feeding ourselves. And we even wet our diapers at times. We get moody and figity and sometimes we just want everything to go our way.
God knows. And God's Love is so great that he overlooks our mistakes, because he knows it's all in the process of learning to trust him.
Trusting in the Love of God.
Do you believe that God Loves you no matter what?
And he does because you are his child and he has so much patience watching you grow and learn.
I believe faith is trusting in the Love of God. God is Love. And Love is what he shares with us every moment of every day.
Do you have faith that the sun will come up tomorrow?
God gives us the sun to keep us warm and to help things grow, He gives the sun to us because he loves us.
Doubting is natural and God knows this too. Sometimes he lets us doubt so that we can learn more perfectly how to trust.
Trials teach us how to get stronger and not be afraid to fall. They teach us how to avoid doubting in the future.
Sometimes you have to experience something before you can learn how to overcome it. And to put your trust in the one who is always watching over you.
God's Love is strong enough and patient enough to wait for you to overcome your doubt. He won't leave you ever. You may wander from him from time to time but the second you think about him, wallah!! there he is like a lighthouse shining on a stormy night.

SarahJane,
God Loves YOU!
no matter whether you have doubts or not, no matter how far away you think you've wandered.
He will never leave you.

All my heart
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

Thank you, lone-traveler.

Is faith something that you feel? Do you know that it's real or do you hope?

cballard · Grizzly Bear Joined: 16 Jun 2005 Posts: 731 Location: WV

I guess I'll share my thoughts on this subject. Faith is a gift from God, but our rational mind can also discern that we are created by something. So we don't question whether or not God exists like those who truly lack faith do.
Is our faith weak? Yes. Peter was working without the ressurection and the decent of the Holy Spirit? Perhaps after Pentacost he would have not doubted. But all of us doubt from time to time that we are getting the right messages from what seems to be happening in our lives. We try to pray, meditate, and live our lives according to what seems to us to be the will of God in our lives, and troubles still seem to pleague us. None of us has faith the size of a mustard seed because none of us can command a mountain to move from one place to another. But we do live in the hope that if we use our faith to control our bodies and mind we will attain eternal life.
I guess I would have to say hope is as real as any other emotion is. That's like asking if love, anger, sorrow and any other range of emotions the human being can feel is real. They all translate into reality based on how they make us act as humans.
I don't know if I've helped you or not, but I am praying that you are strengthened in the gift faith.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:26 am Post subject:

I think faith is something that grows.
the more you exercise it the stronger it gets.
Hope for me has always been a constant. I always hoped I was doing the right thing, saying the right thing. Trying not to offend anybody. I always hoped there was a God that loved me and heard me when I talked to him.

Faith, well, I guess faith is putting hope into action.
I can hope I love someone or I can just love them. And by just doing it, just loving them regardless of who or what or why then the faith I have in loving someone becomes a truth. A fact.

So hope grows into faith which becomes a truth to the one that exercises that faith.

I didn't always have faith. It came and went but I think that was the growing pains. Right now I know I have faith because I can sense God's Love in me. I can sense his patience, his calmness, his peace in me.

Sometimes things get tough and it tests my faith to see if I trust him all the way or if I'm holding back. But the more I learn to lean on the truth which is God's Love in me, the easier it becomes to rely on that love in me. And then I can love others with God's love and thereby exercise my faith in him making my faith stronger.

It's kind of like a catch 22. You have to give love in order to have it in you.
you have to exercise faith before faith becomes truth in you.

You can't get to high school till you go through grade school first.
It's all little steps, sometimes you get to take a leap, but even these can cause you to fall down.

SarahJane,
God is patient, don't get impatient with yourself, tell yourself it's ok to go slow. It's ok to stumble, it's ok to fall down. Just brush yourself off and start with hope. try exercising your faith by being patient with yourself and that patience will make your faith stronger and turn it into truth.

God's not hurrying you. I'm surely not hurrying you. So don't hurry yourself. Love yourself enough to give yourself time. And in time that Love and faith will flow through you and you will know what it feels like.

to me,
It feels like a soft breeze, a peaceful walk on the beach, gentle as a feather, quiet as a whisper.
This is you having faith in the Love of God loving you with all the love that you will recieve from him.

and we all fall down, and it's ok.
When you do get up chances are you won't trip over the same pebble again. And there are lots of pebbles. But if you know that they are there for your good and not your harm, and that they are there to teach you how to be a better you and to put more faith in God and how to love more, and be more patient, and to learn how to accept yourself because God accepts you,because your his, and he made you exactly the way you are, then it will be easier to get up and brush off every time.

I believe we are here to learn how to become more like him. And this takes a lot (LOTS!!) of practice. And Patience.
Amen?!!

Huggs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

lone-traveler · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 11:38 am Post subject:

cballard wrote: I guess I'll share my thoughts on this subject.
Faith is a gift from God

Amen cballard!!

God has so many gifts to give us. We just have to be willing to accept them and respect them and put them to good use!!

quote:
I don't know if I've helped you or not, but I am praying that you are strengthened in the gift faith.

It helps me too cballard...
share more, share more!!!

huggs
Lone
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

golfjack · Posted: Sun Nov 20, 2005 12:06 pm Post subject: reply

Hi SarahJane, I believe many Christians try to complicate faith, resulting in no results. So what do we need to do to Get God's attention? I will try to give you a blueprint from the Word of God. First: Surround yourself with that which produces faith. Read Romans 12:3. Every born again believer has received the measure of faith, and not a measure. The Bible says that faith can grow eccedingly. It's all up to you with what you do, that can determine if you grow in faith. It's strange to me how many Christians surround themselves with things that cause them to be weak in faith. They sit in a church that does not teach the Word, listening to somebody tell them it's not God's will to heal, that it's God's will for us to be poor, and so forth. They try to stay spiritually alive in that negative atmosphere wher people do not believe in the supernatural power of God.

God's word says without faith it is impossible to please him... (Heb. 11:6). We must realize that if we are going to build it into something that will produce results for us, we must surround ourselves with succcessful people of God, not negative people. Therefore, speak positive things out of your mouth, say it is when it is not with natural eyes. Read Mark 11:23-24 to have mountain moving faith. The mountain could be sickness, trouble in a relationship, finances, and so forth. Notice what these verses say; Sayeth is mentioned 3 times. For example, Find a verse in the Bible that talks about healing, and say out loud, according to Your Word, I am healed by the stripes of Jesus. Don't say something like, I might die of this cancer. Get into the Word of God and start confessing positive things from the Word, and you would be surprised at the results. I could say much more, but don't have time.

May God bless, golfjack

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

Thank you to everyone who has been willing to share with me. There are so many different approaches to faith being represented so far, and each one has been a joy to read.

I'm going to return to this topic after I have gathered my thoughts a little more, there is a lot to it for me. Golfjack, thank you for your candid response. I do appreciate what you are saying.

Thank you again to everyone who has responded, I appreciate your willingness to share and that you reserved judgment.

nannabug · Growing Guppy Joined: 06 Nov 2005 Posts: 42

I tend to think that quite a few people doubt their salvation and/or lose their faith due to the fact that they believe they should always be feeling some sort of emotional response if they are 'right with God'. Always looking for that emotional high, and fearing if they don't have it then they really don't have fellowship with God. This is simply not true. Faith is an act of an individual's will, and it is each person's responsibility to grow in knowledge on a daily basis and to mature as a believer. True, there is some emotion involved, but it is not the primary focal point for a believer. Rather it lies in your mind and in your thoughts, not in your emotions. Take in doctrine daily. It helps immensely to find a good pastor/teacher to aid in disseminating the word of God. Problem is finding one that has not become entangled in legalism, religionism and emotionalism himself. Once saved, always saved. Never doubt that. Then it becomes our duty as believers to go from gnosis (knowledge) to epignosis (mature knowledge). Babies start with milk and so should new believers. As one grows in faith and knowledge, then he or she can advance to a diet of real substance, never allowing oneself to fall into a state of apostasy.

I pray you find your way, SarahJane.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Good point nannabug. I read once (I think it was from John Piper) regarding the difference between 'thinking' and 'feeling' christians. I have argued before that faith is very much an intellectual pursuit and not an emotional one.

I had spent many years searcing for that 'depth of feeling', that emotional feeling which I felt many Christians had, and suffered greatly for it. I told myself that I wasn't 'getting it' or wasn't quite 'there' in my faith if I didn't feel that overwhelming emotional pull that so many have spoken of...

I've come to realize that faith is not a matter of emotion, certainly there are those who do have such, but it is not the cornerstone of faith, and for some who are not normally 'emotional' people, they do not ever 'feel' that pull. However, that does not mean they do not have the indwelling of the spirit, or a true abiding faith in God. We simply are different types of people who approach faith in our own way. With a surety of mind, a conviction of knoweldge of God and His existence and His existence in our lives.

Would I like to have that warm, deep, emotional feeling? Certainly, but I have never had that feeling, for anything, so I do not need to expect that feeling to convict me of my faith as it is just not part of my make up to be that way.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

Thank you to everyone who has responded. I am not an emotional person and like RevJP I have wondered what I'm doing wrong because I haven't received warm fuzzies no matter how hard I try.

Is being a Christian in our actions, or is it the way that we feel?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Absolutely NOT in the way we feel! Wink

Take a look at feeling. An emotional reaction is often a naturally occurring thing, since our nature is corrupt (after the Fall) those natural reactions can be accepted as compromised.

Scripture speaks to our knowledge of God, quite often actually. What I see is the anecdotal evidence we are often inundated with. Too many speak of the feelings and emotions of spiritual things, and thus we are conditioned to beleive that there must be a deep emotional aspect to faith. Truth is, it need not be so.

We are admonished to come to a knowledge of God, we are given a great commandment: Love God with all your heart, body, MIND, and soul.

Emotions cannot determine truth or decide right from wrong. Feeling good does not suggest that something is true, and feeling bad does not indicate that it's false. Emotions contain no content, no information by which to evaluate truth or falsehood. Our reasoning capacity performs that functiion. Emotions are the part of the soul that appreciates and responds to life. Expecting them to identify truth is like asking our ears to smell a flower.

Millions of people experience sincere but contradictory emotions about their religions. These views however, cannot all be true because they make mutally exclusive claims about God, the universe, mankind, and salvation. Some Christians come dangerously close to this kind of spritual operation. They believe that God speaks to them outside of His Word, even using an audible voice. While this may be true, the test for authenticity should not be their feelings but agreement with God's written revelation in Scripture. Biblical, historic Christianity does not ask people to make a decision or take action based on feelings, but on the truth of God's Holy Inspired Word, and our knowledged of Him gleaned from His Word.
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog

golfjack · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 7:03 am Post subject: reply

I believe it is our actions that make us Christians. Faith is a verb in the English language, which means actions. Yes, One can say because of the grace of God, we can become born again by our action of confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior, believing with our hearts, that is completely trust what Jesus did on the cross on Calvary to save us.

I do believe many Christians lose fellowship with God, but we do not lose our relationship with God if we trust the finished work on the cross. The operative word is forgiven, and to me means forgiveness of past, present, and future sins. We do have an advacate with the Father, our Lord Jesus Christ, and agree with J.P., we can use 1 John 2:1 to thank Jesus for the blood that is a caveat for us when we do an act of sin. There is no condemnation in the Lord, but we can condemn ourselves, and the enemy can too. I believe that when we study and mediate on God's Word, our minds will be renewed, and that flesh will start to line up with our spirits, which are made perfect by the New Birth. I say to those that might say, believing this gives one a license to sin, I probably sin enough, and don't need a license. Just cry out and say ABBA FATHER.

May God bless, golfjack

lone-traveler · Posted: Mon Nov 21, 2005 8:41 am Post subject:

Rev,

I think I might be misunderstanding your answer..

The question was by SarahJane:
Is being a Christian in our actions, or is it the way that we feel?

And you replied:
Absolutely NOT in the way we feel!

Does the question that SarahJane asked mean Christian as a whole or whether the christian faith itself requires an emotional feeling?

I only ask because If God is Love, and Love is an emotion, then a Christian would experience some emotion of that Love, no?

Not to prove whether they have faith or not, but to demonstrate being christian?

I'm not arguing, I think I just misunderstood your answer.

would you clarify for me?
Thankyou
_________________
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

SarahJane · Alley Cat Joined: 20 Nov 2005 Posts: 177

Hiya Lone. I think that understanding where I am would help you understand his response the same way that I understood it. I was relieved to read the response written by Rev JP because it nailed what I have been struggling with. I have been waiting for 'faith' to hit me. I wanted that assurance that I use to have, and I use to get that from feeling the love of God.

I love my children always but there are times when I'm not 'feeling' that love. That isn't saying that the love that I have for my children isn't real or constant, it isn't dependent on the way I feel at the moment. It's stronger than fickle emotions. That was my understanding of his message and why it was comforting to me.