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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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 Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:06 am Post subject: Salvation aside, was water baptism practiced in the church? |
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Water Baptism...just do it
by wm tipton
Instead of discussing whether water baptism 'saves' a person, Id like to discuss whether water baptism was 'practiced' AFTER Jesus had ascended and after Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit.
Some seem to think that after a time that water baptism was removed from our faith or something, but I personally do not believe that is the case.
The day of Pentecost and the coming of the Holy Spirit is recorded in Acts 2, as we well know, so do we see any water baptisms going on after this baptism of 'fire' spoken of in Gods word?
6 entire chapters later we have a very clear baptism in water being practiced still. If Spirit baptism is all that is 'required' or expected at this point, then why is this even occurring? (of course we expect some to come up with illogical reasonings and excuses, but read it for yourself and take no ones word for anything. Does it make sense to YOU that this water baptism is taking place *IF* it is no longer of any issue? )
| Quote: |
Act 8:36-39 KJV
And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? (37) And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. (38) And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him
And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
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This next passage is quite clear. These HAD already recieved the Holy Spirit and yet WERE going to be baptized in WATER as well.
| Quote: | Act 10:44-48 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46)
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
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Now, dear reader, is there any doubt in your mind about what is clearly shown there?
These who HAD already recieved the Holy Spirit were 'commanded' to be baptized in water. we know its water since they had ALREADY received the Holy Spirit.
These who argue against water baptism do so with their own personal agendas.
Do not let these who teach falsely rob you of the blessing of water baptism...
Last edited by FoC on Mon Jul 09, 2007 5:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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rjustice7
Growing Guppy
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Johnson City, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:47 am Post subject: Are you the same guy? |
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FoC. I think we agree. You've proved my point. I mean this is alot of what I told you in my posts to you, and yet you start a post that supports what I believe and told you. I'm with you on the early church baptising and everything. This was not meant to be done until this coming of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' ascension. Then it began in the early church. Meaning the thief on the cross died before then and wasn't under such a requirement. This is what I believe. Do we agree, or don't we? I think we do. All I can say to this post is a big AMEN, and well said!  |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Are you the same guy? |
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| rjustice7 wrote: | | FoC. I think we agree. You've proved my point. |
Hardly proved your point.
You say it is absolutely *required* else salvation is not present.
I dont say that at all, friend.
I simply state that it is instructed as a part of our faith.
This post isnt about baptism being required in order to be born again. It is about whether or not believers should be baptized or not.
| Quote: |
I mean this is alot of what I told you in my posts to you, and yet you start a post that supports what I believe and told you. I'm with you on the early church baptising and everything. This was not meant to be done until this coming of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' ascension. Then it began in the early church. Meaning the thief on the cross died before then and wasn't under such a requirement. This is what I believe. Do we agree, or don't we? I think we do. All I can say to this post is a big AMEN, and well said! |
We do disagree, Im quite sure of that.
I do not believe that baptism is *required* else salvation is lost as you do.
What I have proven here is that baptism is part of our faith, not that anyone is going to hell if they failed to be baptized before they died 3 minutes after being born again.
You have to deal with a huge contradiction in your views if you allow for deathbed repentance whereby the person dies moments after repenting and never made it to the baptismal 
It CANNOT be absolute or no exception could exist for these kinds of situations |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3386
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:08 am Post subject: |
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| FoC wrote: | | Now, dear reader, is there any doubt in your mind about what is clearly shown there? |
Not a single doubt in my mind!
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of ***water by the word***,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eze 16:4 And [as for] thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple [thee]; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
Eze 16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause [you] to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
Mar 1:42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:18 am Post subject: Re: Are you the same guy? |
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| rjustice7 wrote: | | FoC. I think we agree. You've proved my point. I mean this is alot of what I told you in my posts to you, and yet you start a post that supports what I believe and told you. I'm with you on the early church baptising and everything. This was not meant to be done until this coming of the Holy Spirit and Jesus' ascension. Then it began in the early church. Meaning the thief on the cross died before then and wasn't under such a requirement. This is what I believe. Do we agree, or don't we? I think we do. All I can say to this post is a big AMEN, and well said! |
Also, bro, if you want to start picking at the details of doctrine, what was water baptism for?
Johns says it was for the 'remission of sin', no?
Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
So where does the blood of Christ come in ?
Mat 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Christs blood takes care of what water baptism did before...remission of sins.
It is a commandment to be baptised in water, that is for sure, but Jesus' BLOOD took care of our sin, not water baptism any longer.
Water baptism now is simply instruction and is not absolute or no one who cannot be immersed in water for whatever health reasons can make it to heaven...which is completely absurd since there are MANY in hospitals and such who CANNOT be IMMERSED/BAPTISED in water !
Either you condemn these folks to hell unjustly OR you admit that the instruction for baptism CANNOT be absolutely *required* for salvation.
So which is it?
Last edited by FoC on Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:21 am; edited 1 time in total |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: |
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| as a side note, to the admin here, the list of censored words here leaves even scripture being a bit unable to be quoted |
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rjustice7
Growing Guppy
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 41
Location: Johnson City, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:27 am Post subject: Well... |
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| Well, I can see that we both agree baptism has some sort of importance. You don't believe it is necessary, and I do, but you do believe it is important and you can see where it was practiced by the early church. I agree with you on that. There's one thing we both agree on. |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:58 am Post subject: Re: Well... |
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| rjustice7 wrote: | | Well, I can see that we both agree baptism has some sort of importance. You don't believe it is necessary, and I do, but you do believe it is important and you can see where it was practiced by the early church. I agree with you on that. There's one thing we both agree on. |
I never said it wasnt 'necessary', friend. You simply arent listening to what is said.
It IS 'necessary' for EVERY ABLE BODIED believer who CAN make it to the water to be baptised.
But it is not ABSOLUTELY required for salvation in that if someone CANT make it to the water for ANY reason, they are NOT going to go to hell over it. (ie, a thief who was not baptized for the remission of sins )
I think Ive said it quite clearly and quite enough at this point that ANY christian who flat out refuses to get baptised in water who CAN do so is subject to suspicion in my opinion.
The problem isnt my understanding of scripture, its your presuming to tell me what it is Im saying and what I believe.
Baptism *IS* necessary where the believer has ABILITY to be baptised. (necessary not meaning 'absolutely required')
The believer will NOT go to hell who simply did not make it to the water in time and its ridiculous to call our God a monster who would condemn a repentant man to hell who simply did not get to the water immediately where he was not able for whatever reason.
Your views are legalistic in nature entirely. You think it is an ACT that God is looking for and its not....He is looking for a contrite heart.....for repentance of sin.
Last edited by FoC on Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:19 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 1:36 pm Post subject: |
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(Putting this in my thread too)
rjustice7....
I think we can settle this issue really quickly *IF* we can get you to answer one simple question.
Now, I KNOW personally of these exact situations happening, so please dont try to dodge with this simply being a hypothetical....IT DOES happen.
a 90 year old bedridden man is in a nursing home and has been an agnostic his whole life.
On a thursday afternoon around 5ish, a pastor is talking with this man and the lights finally come on and he realizes he is a sinner in need of a savior and so he sincerely repents of his sins.
Being bed ridden because of lack of mobility, they have to schedule his baptism weeks from that day in order to find proper accomodations and help.
His baptism is set for 12 days from the day he repented of his sins and was born again of God.
3 days later the man has a massive heart attack and dies.
Are you telling all of us here that this mans sincere REPENTANCE was rejected/laughed at by our heavenly Father or God the Son simply because he was not dunked in water?
Now, you can give me just about any line you want, but the FACT is unless you and your ilk are prepared to condemn this man to hell, a situation that DOES indeed happen, then you ARE agreeing that baptism is CONDITIONAL and not ABSOLUTELY *required* for salvation.
I'll say it once again, you CANNOT have it both ways.
Either this man WILL go to hell because he didnt make it to the water in time *OR* baptism is not ABSOLUTELY *REQUIRED* for salvation.
Please do not divert or dodge the question with semantics. These situations DO occur in real life whether anyone here wants to admit it or not.
Not everyone who has repented sincerely has made it to the water for baptism.
Do the truly repentant go to hell if they didnt make it to the water in time....yes or no ?
Your answer will either show a very UNJUST answer or it will have to show that baptism is not absolutely *required* for salvation.
So which one are you going to go with here? |
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SealedEternal
Labrador
Joined: 28 Dec 2006
Posts: 312
Location: Milwaukee, WI
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| Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 4:33 pm Post subject: |
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| MoJo wrote: |
Not a single doubt in my mind!
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of ***water by the word***,
Eph 5:27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
Eze 16:4 And [as for] thy nativity, in the day thou wast born thy navel was not cut, neither wast thou washed in water to supple [thee]; thou wast not salted at all, nor swaddled at all.
Eze 16:9 Then washed I thee with water; yea, I throughly washed away thy blood from thee, and I anointed thee with oil.
Jhn 13:10 Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all.
1Cr 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
Hbr 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, [who is] the faithful witness, [and] the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,
Eph 5:26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
Eze 36:33 Thus saith the Lord GOD; In the day that I shall have cleansed you from all your iniquities I will also cause [you] to dwell in the cities, and the wastes shall be builded.
Mar 1:42 And as soon as he had spoken, immediately the leprosy departed from him, and he was cleansed.
Psa 51:7 Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.
Isa 1:16 Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil;
Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Jhn 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
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Most of these verses aren't even in the context of water baptism. They talk about the washing of God's Word and His Spirit and Him cleansing us of sin, which have nothing to do with the water ceremony. God's Spirit and Word do the washing of our hearts that saves us, while water cannot cleanse anything except the flesh.
Is that what you meant? I can't tell by your response.
SealedEternal
_________________
1 John 3:7-8 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3386
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:32 am Post subject: |
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| Sealed wrote: | Most of these verses aren't even in the context of water baptism. They talk about the washing of God's Word and His Spirit and Him cleansing us of sin, which have nothing to do with the water ceremony. God's Spirit and Word do the washing of our hearts that saves us, while water cannot cleanse anything except the flesh.
Is that what you meant? I can't tell by your response. |
I'm sorry if I didn't make myself clear. Baptism in Jesus has absolutely zilch to do with literal water and all of the verses I used have to do with the true baptism. Jesus is the living water by which we are baptized and cleansed and this water is the word of God. We are re-born of this water (Jesus) and the Holy Spirit. IOW, sealed, I agree with you. I think that the scriptures I quoted makes this very clear.
In saying this, it's also evident that throughout the bible God uses many tokens and symbols that we, as being in the flesh, can draw the analogies from. Literal water baptism is one, just as literal circumcision was one. But we did not move from one set of legalistic laws just to be yoked to another set.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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RevJP
Moderator
Joined: 18 Apr 2003
Posts: 7005
Location: USA
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 9:51 am Post subject: |
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Rom 5:1 THEREFORE, SINCE we are justified (acquitted, declared righteous, and given a right standing with God) through faith, let us [grasp the fact that we] have [the peace of reconciliation to hold and to enjoy] peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ (the Messiah, the Anointed One).
_________________
JP's Mind - my blog
Psa 118:8 It is better to trust and take refuge in the Lord than to put confidence in man. |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone even responded to the passage where they were instructed to be WATER baptised AFTER receiving the Holy Spirit?
Act 10:44-48 KJV
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46)
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God.
Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? (48) And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days. |
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MoJo
Moderator
Joined: 31 Jul 2003
Posts: 3386
Location: Canada
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| Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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If water is the word of God, what would be the meaning of forbidding the Gentiles the water (word of God.)
Act 28:31 Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
Mat 19:14 But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.
Mar 9:39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid [him] not: for he that is not against us is for us.
_________________
matt 6: 34 "Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." |
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FoC
Goldfish
Joined: 03 May 2007
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 7:17 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | If water is the word of God, what would be the meaning of forbidding the Gentiles the water (word of God.) |
Mojo, PLEASE tell me that you arent actually stating that in the passage I presented before that they are talking about being 'baptised' into Gods word instead of good old H20
That, friend, would be quite a stretch of the imagination just to get rid of water baptism.... |
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