Revelation 20: 6

golfjack · Posted: Tue Sep 27, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: Revelation 20: 6

BLESSED AND HOLY ARE THOSE WHO HAVE PART IN THE FIRST RESURRECTION. THE SECOND DEATH HAS NO POWER OVER THEM, BUT THEY WILL BE PRIESTS OF GOD AND OF CHRIST AND WILL REIGN WITH HIM FOR A THOUSAND YEARS.

This tells us six things about those who will have a part in the first resurection: Blessed, They will be happy in their eternal state; Holy, they will be separated or identified as God's special people; Priest's, they will minister to, and serve in the presence of God; Reign, they will be both a ROYAL and a POLITICAL priesthood; Thousand years, the length of their earthly reign with Jesus; The second death has no power over them, they will never suffer the consequences of their sin by being cast into the Lake of Fire because they have been redeemed.

I believe it is most important to accept Christ as Lord and Savior right now, before it is too late.

May God bless, golfjack

Star · Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:37 pm Post subject:

Golf writes,

This tells us six things about those who will have a part in the first resurection: Blessed, They will be happy in their eternal state;

Star replies...

1Peter 1:8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

Golf writes

Reign, they will be both a ROYAL and a POLITICAL priesthood;

Star replies,

There is no word comcerning political but of Government (0451) means the same as ""rule, dominion""" (these words are IN SCRIPTURE and scripture defines them, its not political in the sense of how you mean it)

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and """the government shall be upon his shoulder""" and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

Spiritual truths of "The Child" and being as the Lord said "Delivered OF THE CHILD"" and a Man being born= No longer a Child under the Law but a Son of God and is GIVEN whereas the first is born. A little child leading them is now turned as the Spirit of God in the SONS leading them. Spiritual truths golf.

Isaiah 9:7 Of the INCREASE(col 2:19 increase of God ) of HIS GOVERNMENT (rule and dominion see scriptures below) and PEACE (like the world gives? No John 16:33 what peace? Ephes 2:14 For HE IS our peace) there shall be NO END (for He is without end), upon the throne of David(Heb 8:1) and upon his kingdom (Luke 17:21Kingdom of God within you) TO ORDER IT(Psalm 119:133 Order my steps in thy word ) and to ESTABLISH IT WITH JUDGMENT (1Peter 4:13 now) and Isaiah 26:9 when thy judgments [are] in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. AND WITH JUSTICE Jerm 50:7 the habitation of justice, even THE LORD """from henceforth even for ever"". The zeal of the LORD of hosts WILL PERFORM THIS. Phil 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work IN YOU will PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ.

Isaiah 16:5 And IN MERCY (merciful obtain mercy) shall the THRONE BE ESTABLISHED ....

Throne...Seat of honour, Dignity Authority and power (Scripture speaks of these) But from the root word Throne 03680 Look how UNOBSERVABLE this throne ( In the Kingdom is)

1) to cover, conceal, hide

a) (Qal) conceal, covered (participle)

b) (Niphal) to be covered

c) (Piel)

1) to cover, clothe

2) to cover, conceal

3) to cover (for protection)

4) to cover over, spread over

5) to cover, overwhelm

d) (Pual)

1) to be covered

2) to be clothed

e) (Hithpael) to cover oneself, clothe oneself

Could Jesus be telling the Truth that His Kingdom does NOT come with observation? This both makes sense that the Kingdom is within and does not come with observation.

....and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness. James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

Government, means rule and dominion (Spiritual dominion)

Mat 2:6 for """out of thee""" shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Sounds like "Out of thee" a Bridegroom cometh forth OUT OF THE CHAMBER"Psalm 19:5

Which again comfirms...

Mat 24:46 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, [he is] """in the secret chambers; believe [it] not"""

Mark 10:42- Ye know that """they which are accounted to rule"""" over the Gentiles exercise """"lordship over them""" and their great ones exercise """authority upon them""" BUT SO SHALL IT NOT BE AMONG YOU but whosoever will be great among you, shall be your minister. And whosoever of you will be the chiefest, shall be servant of all.
Judges 8:23 I will not rule over you, neither shall my son rule over you: the LORD shall rule over you.

2Corinth 10:13 But we will not boast of things without [our] measure, but according to THE MEASURE OF RULE which God HATH DISTRIBUTED TO US, a measure to reach even unto you. Col 3:15 let the PEACE (Government) of God RULE (dominion) in your hearts

Faith and rule

Isaiah 63:19 We are [thine]: THOU """never barest rule over them""" they were not called by thy name.Prov 25:28 He that [hath] """no rule over his own spirit""" [is like] a city [that is] broken down, [and] without walls. Prov 29:2 When the righteous (live by faith) are in authority, the people rejoice: but when the wicked (those """without faith""") beareth rule, the people mourn. 2Corinth 10:15 when ""your faith is increased""", that we shall be enlarged by you according to our rule abundantly, Heb 13:7 Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow.

Continued below for length...
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Star · Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 2:47 pm Post subject:

Dominion

Psalm 103:22 Bless the LORD, all """his works ""in all places"" of HIS dominion""" bless the LORD, O my soul.

Jude 1:25 To the only wise God our Saviour, [be] glory and majesty, dominion and power, both NOW and EVER. Amen.

What kinds of dominion or government is this?

Psalm 119:133 Order my steps in thy word: and let """not any iniquity have dominion over me.""" Roman 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

1Peter 4:11 If any man speak, [let him speak] as the oracles of God; if any man minister, [let him do it] as of the ability which God giveth: that God in all things may be glorified through Jesus Christ, to whom be praise and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Whats on His shoulder...?

Job 31:35 Oh that one would hear me! behold, my desire [is, that] the Almighty would answer me, and [that] """"mine adversary"""" had WRITTEN A BOOK

Job 31:36 Surely I would take IT upon my shoulder, [and] bind IT [as] a crown TO me.

Jerm 51:63 And it shall be, when thou hast made an END of reading this BOOK, [that] thou shalt """"bind a STONE ( Jesus Christ ) TO IT """ and cast it into the midst of Euphrates (symbolic language)

He is the Word made Flesh... The Stone the Builders rejected, He is The End of The Law, Lo it is written OF ME in the volume of thy BOOK and THE KEY of knowledge

Isaiah 22:22 And the key of the house of David will I will lay upon his shoulder; so he shall open, and none shall shut; and he shall shut, and none shall open.

Luke 11:52 Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have """taken away""" the key OF KNOWLEDGE """ye enter not in"""" yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered.

John 20:13 Because they have """taken away""" MY LORD Col 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. John 10:9 by ME if any man enter in...

Rev 3:7 These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, He that hath ""the key"" of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth

(John 10:9) I am the door Rev 3:8 I have set before thee an open door and no man can shut

Golf writes,

Thousand years, the length of their earthly reign with Jesus;

Star replies,

2Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years AS ONE DAY (this day Peter shows dawns in their hearts) They were RECEIVING a KINGDOM they were Receiving THE END and THE DAY (As even the thousand years are expressed as was one Peter saw that did DAWN IN THEM. Christ being the same Yesterday (Which was as a thousand years as yesterday passed) and To Day Paul declared it was what followed? But For Ever such his Mercy is.

Golf writes,

The second death has no power over them,

Star replies,

The sting of death IS SIN and the power of Sin IS THE LAW, being redeemed from the law by Him who comes a SECOND TIME to those who look for Him """WITHOUT SIN""" In Him There is no sting or hurt of death... O death where is thy sting? Where is thy Victory? Thanks Be to God for Jesus Christ!

Golf writes,

they will never suffer the consequences of their sin by being cast into the Lake of Fire because they have been redeemed.

Star replies,

They are found IN HIM ( the book of life) not having a righteousness of their own which is of the law (the other books) but by faith in Christ. (Their works opposed to His perfect work)

Heb 8:10 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

They are not judged by their sins but "their works" They who were under the law had no rest day or night seems just as the Lake of fire... It speaks elsewhere of their works being burned but being saved yet by fire, for fire tests every mans works. Only Christs were perfect through whom we enter in. There is day and night in the lake of fire, there is no night in the City. No more sea for He has casts their sins and iniquities into the sea, its spiritual truths and remembers their sins no more.

Golf writes,

I believe it is most important to accept Christ as Lord and Savior right now, before it is too late.

Star writes,

Heb 7:45 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he EVER liveth to make intercession for them.

Hid desire is to show mercy

Romans 11:32 For God hath concluded them ALL in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

Try looking up "Mercy endureth FOR EVER"" and Christ (shown as above) He EVER lives to make intercession) theres your For ever (Mercy) AND EVER ( His intercession for them)

That which also is seen as For ever are shown to have but "their part" in it.

Breifly there is much more of these things spoken of in scripture. Man defines it as some fleshly rule but its a Spiritual rule.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

lone-traveler · Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:16 pm Post subject:

Golf writes

Reign, they will be both a ROYAL and a POLITICAL priesthood;

Star replies,

There is no word comcerning political but of Government (0451) means the same as ""rule, dominion""" (these words are IN SCRIPTURE and scripture defines them, its not political in the sense of how you mean it)

Government, Rule, Dominion:

Ps:72:1: Give the king thy judgments, O God, and thy righteousness unto the king's son.
Ps:72:2: He shall judge thy people with righteousness, and thy poor with judgment.
Ps:72:3: The mountains shall bring peace to the people, and the little hills, by righteousness.
Ps:72:4: He shall judge the poor of the people, he shall save the children of the needy, and shall break in pieces the oppressor.
Ps:72:5: They shall fear thee as long as the sun and moon endure, throughout all generations.
Ps:72:6: He shall come down like rain upon the mown grass: as showers that water the earth.
Ps:72:7: In his days shall the righteous flourish; and abundance of peace so long as the moon endureth.
Ps:72:8: He shall have dominion also from sea to sea, and from the river unto the ends of the earth.
Ps:72:9: They that dwell in the wilderness shall bow before him; and his enemies shall lick the dust.
Ps:72:10: The kings of Tarshish and of the isles shall bring presents: the kings of Sheba and Seba shall offer gifts.
Ps:72:11: Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
Ps:72:12: For he shall deliver the needy when he crieth; the poor also, and him that hath no helper.
Ps:72:13: He shall spare the poor and needy, and shall save the souls of the needy.
Ps:72:14: He shall redeem their soul from deceit and violence: and precious shall their blood be in his sight.
Ps:72:15: And he shall live, and to him shall be given of the gold of Sheba: prayer also shall be made for him continually; and daily shall he be praised.
Ps:72:16: There shall be an handful of corn in the earth upon the top of the mountains; the fruit thereof shall shake like Lebanon: and they of the city shall flourish like grass of the earth.
Ps:72:17: His name shall endure for ever: his name shall be continued as long as the sun: and men shall be blessed in him: all nations shall call him blessed.
Ps:72:18: Blessed be the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wondrous things.
Ps:72:19: And blessed be his glorious name for ever: and let the whole earth be filled with his glory; Amen, and Amen.
Ps:72:20: The prayers of David the son of Jesse are ended.

Are there three distinct personalities in the first line, or are they all the same one?

I read it as God gives Judgement to the King and Righteousness to the King's Son.

Anyway you look at it I guess, Looks like an awesome place to hang out for a millenium no?

In the line where it says In his days will the righteous flourish,
I believe this is talking about until he turns it over to the Father.
And it also says as long as the sun and moon endures. So this would be up until the time a new earth and heaven are created yes?

So if God is the Father, then who are the King AND the King's son?

One is given judgement and the other righteousness. And yet the King judges WITH righteousness.

So then we get righteous judgements.

Ps:67:1: God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah.
Ps:67:2: That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations.
Ps:67:3: Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.
Ps:67:4: O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
Ps:67:5: Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee.
Ps:67:6: Then shall the earth yield her increase; and God, even our own God, shall bless us.
Ps:67:7: God shall bless us; and all the ends of the earth shall fear him.

Is:1:24: Therefore saith the Lord, the Lord of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
Is:1:25: And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
Is:1:26: And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
Is:1:27: Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

I suppose if we want to know what it may look like, we may have to look in the beginning.
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Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.

golfjack · Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 4:17 pm Post subject: reply

Star, how can you explain the following scriptures has been fulfilled?

Zechariah 12:3-10; Zechariah 13:8 ; and Zechariah 14:1-4. What about the judgements of the nations as described in Matt. 25:31-46? If Christians returned in a.d.70, then why aren't Christians in the Fathers house, as Jesus promised in John 14:1-3?

I still believe your views are still full of holes.

May God bless, golfjack

Star · Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 6:58 pm Post subject:

Golfjack... I'm not doing verse hunts for you.

The Fathers House? Your kidding right?

So which scripture do you find full of holes Golf?

What would the Kingdom look like to you? Earthly rods and staffs? One man rules over others on some velvet seat? Earthly Jerusalem? Boating over the seas to exchange worship in the Spirit to again worshipping after the flesh? Whats your ideas about this? I mean really. Gods words express rulership, Paul was such one who could come in a rod or a spirit of love, his measure was within the feild God assigned that reached unto them. He even said the authority Christ gave them was to their edification and not destruction. Was Paul considered having such rule by the religious community around him? No they thought he was a reprobate, cast off as false yet true.

When he was sick they received him as angel or as Christ himself. How were they others judged? Were they aware of their judgment? When Christ , "When I was sick"... you did unto me... Lord when did we SEE YOU... Cause He is here "in the least of these brethren of mine"... Paul knew this, thats why he said, "my sickness was a TRIAL UNTO YOU" It was never Pauls trial, neither was those in lack who separated the sheeps from the goats on the basis of one group "these brethren of mine". Would every eye see Him? Jesus said they would and they did, but it was Him in His brethren. He who accepts anyone I send accepts me He said. These brethrens trials were set up to judge them. a paradox of sorts. You will not see me again until you say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord... must make you wonder. Did they see Him? Yes... Did they perceive it was Him? Hardly.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

Star · Posted: Wed Sep 28, 2005 8:11 pm Post subject:

Lone writes,

I suppose if we want to know what it may look like, we may have to look ""in the beginning""

Star replies,

Thats right Lone and """WHO""" is THAT Very Happy

Rather then go into this in full, but who had symbolic rule but the Sun and the Moon. One of Day and one of night (day and night) There is no night in the City Jesus said YE are a City... It speaks of children of the night "sometimes in darkness" (called night) but are now translated into the Kingdom of Gods dear Son delivered from the power of darkness.

Theres tons more. The Sun of righteousness rises with "healing" in His wings The Great Physician who offers us up to God made whole in Him (delivering up to the father all things) Notice we are whole in Him theres no need for the Light of the Sun (she is CLOTHED with the Sun= Immortality) with the Moon beneathe her feet. The Rules... He must rule ""Until" and He does he performs His promises within us. No need for the Sun because the glory of God (Paul speaks of this) gives her light. Tons of symbolic language which speaks of the works of Christ.

He is the King of kings and Lord of lords, but he does not come like the Kings of this world portray Him. He was born a King but flaunteth not himself as the kind of king we see others trying to push through their imaginations. Even of John the baptist, Jesus said "what did you EXPECT TO SEE"??? A reed blowing around by the wind sort of thing? Thats why understanding as the scriptures speak of something is so important because those who were left to their vain imaginations and letter of the word knowledge had elaborately figured how he would come to them and missed it. Not only missed Him crucified Him. We think the Isrealites are stupid? Jesus said, " you say you would not have been like your forefathers who killed the prophets etc" in saying that very thing they were bearing witness against themselves. Lots of beautiful things to see in this, there truly is.
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God love ya In Him Starlaa

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Rev 20:6 -
Blessed - That is, his condition is to be regarded as a happy or a favored one. This is designed apparently to support and encourage those who, in the time of John, suffered persecution, or who might suffer persecution afterward.
And holy - That is, no one will be thus honored who has not an established character for holiness. Holy principles will then reign, and none will be exalted to that honor who have not a character for eminent sanctity.
That hath part in the first resurrection - That participated in it; that is, who is associated with those who are thus raised up.
On such the second death hath no power - The “second death” is properly the death which the wicked will experience in the world of woe. (See Rev_20:14). The meaning here is, that all who are here referred to as having part in the first resurrection will be secure against that. It will be one of the blessed privileges of heaven that there will be absolute security against death in any and every form; and when we think of what death is here, and still more when we think of “the bitter pains of the second death,” we may well call that state “blessed” in which there will be eternal exemption from either.

Rev 20:14 Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
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RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

But they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him - notes at Rev_1:6; Rev_5:10.
Section b. - Condition of the world in the period referred to in Rev_20:4-6.

I. It is well known that this passage is the principal one which is relied on by those who advocate the doctrine of the literal reign of Christ on the earth for a thousand years, or who hold what are called the doctrines of the “second advent.” The points which are maintained by those who advocate these views are substantially:

(a) that at that period Christ will descend from heaven to reign personally upon the earth;
(b) that he will have a central place of power and authority, probably Jerusalem;
(c) that the righteous dead will then be raised, in such bodies as are to be immortal;
(d) that they will be his attendants, and will participate with him in the government of the world;
(e) that this will continue during the period of a thousand years;
(f) that the world will be subdued and converted during this period, not by moral means, but by “a new dispensation” - by the power of the Son of God; and,
(g) that at the close of this period all the remaining dead will be raised, the judgment will take place, and the affairs of the earth will be consummated.

The opinion here adverted to was held substantially by Papias, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and others among the Christian fathers, and, it need not be said, is held by many modern expositors of the Bible, and by large numbers of Christian ministers of high standing, and other Christians. See the “Literalist, passim.” The opinion of the Christian fathers, with which the modern “literalists,” as they are called, substantially coincide, is thus stated by Mr. Elliott: “This resurrection is to be literally that of departed saints and martyrs, then at length resuscitated in the body from death and the grave; its time to synchronize with, or follow instantly after, the destruction of the beast antichrist, on Christ’s personal second advent; the “binding” of Satan to be an absolute restriction of the power of hell from tempting, deceiving, or injuring mankind, throughout a literal period of a thousand years, thence calculated; the “government of the earth” during its continuance to be administered by Christ and the risen saints - the latter being now ἰσάγγελοι isangeloi - in nature like angels; and under it, all false religion having been put down, the Jews and saved remnant of the Gentiles been converted to Christ, the earth renovated by the fire of antichrist’s destruction, and Jerusalem made the universal capital, there will be a realization on earth of the blessedness depicted in the Old Testament prophecies, as well as perhaps of that too which is associated with the New Jerusalem in the visions of the Apocalypse - until at length this millennium having ended, and Satan gone forth to deceive the nations, the final consummation will follow; the new-raised enemies of the saints, Gog and Magog, be destroyed by fire from heaven: and then the general resurrection and judgment take place, the devil and his servants be cast into the lake of fire, and the millennial reign of the saints extend itself into one of eternal duration” (Elliott on the Apocalypse, iv. 177, 178).

Mr. Elliott’s own opinion, representing, it is supposed, that of the great body of the “literalists,” is thus expressed: “It would seem, therefore, that in this state of things and of feeling in professing Christendom (a feeling of carnal security), all suddenly, and unexpectedly, and conspicuous over the world as the lightning that shineth from the east even unto the west, the second advent and appearing of Christ will take place; that at the accompanying voice of the archangel and trump of God, the departed saints of either dispensation will rise from their graves to meet him - alike patriarchs, and prophets, and apostles, and martyrs, and confessors - all at once and in the twinkling of an eye; and then instantly the saints living at the time will be also caught up to meet him in the air; these latter being separated out of the ungodly nations, as when a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats, and all, both dead and living saints, changed at the moment from corruption to incorruption, from dishonor to glory, though with very different degrees of glory; and so in a new angelic nature, to take part in the judging and ruling in this world.

Meanwhile, with a tremendous earthquake accompanying, of violence unknown since the revolutions of primeval chaos, an earthquake under which the Roman world at least is to rock to and fro like a drunken man, the solid crust of this earth shall be broken, and fountains burst forth from its inner deep, not as once of water, but of liquid fire; and that the flames shall consume the antichrist and his confederate kings, while the sword also does its work of slaughter; the risen saints being perhaps the attendants of the Lord’s glory in this destruction of antichrist, and assessors in his judgment on a guilty world. And then immediately the renovation of this our earth is to take place, its soil being purified by the very action of the fire, and the Spirit poured out from on high, to renew, in a yet better sense, the moral face of nature; the Shekinah, or personal glory of Christ amidst his saints, being manifested chiefly in the Holy Land and at Jerusalem, but the whole earth partaking of the blessedness; and thus the regeneration of all things, and the world’s redemption from the curse, having their accomplishment, according to the promise, at the manifestation of the sons of God,” 4:224-231.

To this account of the prevailing opinion of the “literalists” in interpreting the passage before us, there should be added that of Prof. Stuart, who, in general, is as far as possible from sympathizing with this class of writers. He says, in his explanation of the expression “they lived,” in Rev_20:4, “There would seem to remain, therefore, only one meaning which can be consistently given to ἔζησαν ezēsan (they lived); namely, that they (the martyrs who renounced the beast) are now “restored to life,” namely, such life as implies the vivification of the body. Not to a union of the soul with a gross material body indeed, but with such an one as the saints in general will have at the final resurrection - a spiritual body, 1Co_15:44. In no other way can this resurrection be ranked as “correlate” with the second resurrection named in the sequel,” vol. ii. p. 360. So again, Excursus vi. (vol. ii. p. 476), he says, “I do not see how we can, on the ground of exegesis, fairly avoid the conclusion that John has taught in the passage before us, that there will be a resurrection of the martyr-saints, at the commencement of the period after Satan shall have been shut up in the dungeon of the great abyss.” This opinion he defends at length, pp. 476-490. Prof. Stuart, indeed, maintains that the martyrs thus raised up will be taken to heaven and reign with Christ “there,” and opposes the whole doctrine of the literal reign on the earth, vol. ii. p. 480. The risen saints and martyrs are to be “enthroned with Christ; that is, they are to be where he dwells, and where he will continue to dwell, until he shall make his descent at the final judgment day.”

II. In regard to these views, as expressive of the meaning of the passage under consideration, I would make the following remarks:

(1) There is strong “presumptive” evidence against this interpretation, and especially against the main point in the doctrine, that there will be a literal “resurrection” of the bodies of the saints at the beginning of that millennial period, to live and reign with Christ on earth, from the following circumstances:

(a) It is admitted, on all hands, that this doctrine, if contained in the Scriptures at all, is found in this one passage only. It is not pretended that there is, in any other place, a direct affirmation that this will literally occur, nor would the advocates for that opinion undertake to show that it is fairly implied in any other part of the Bible. But it is strange, not to say improbable, that the doctrine of the literal resurrection of the righteous, a thousand years before the wicked, should be announced in one passage only. If it were so announced in plain and unambiguous language, I admit that the believer in the divine origin of the Scriptures would be bound to receive it; but this is so contrary to the usual method of the Scriptures on all great and important doctrines, that this circumstance should lead us at least to doubt whether the passage is correctly interpreted. The resurrection of the dead is a subject on which the Saviour often dwelt in his instructions; it is a subject which the apostles discussed very frequently and at great length in their preaching, and in their writings; it is presented by them in a great variety of forms, for the consolation of Christians in time of trouble, and with reference to the condition of the world at the winding up of human affairs; and it is strange that, in respect to so important a doctrine as this, if it be true, there is not elsewhere, in the New Testament, a hint, an intheation, an allusion, that would lead us to suppose that the righteous are to be raised in this manner.

(b) If this is a true doctrine, it would be reasonable to expect that a clear and unambiguous statement of it would be made. Certainly, if there is but one statement on the subject, that might be expected to be a perfectly clear one, it would be a statement about which there could be no diversity of opinion, concerning which those who embraced it might be expected to hold the same views. But it cannot be pretended that this is so in regard to this passage. It occurs in the book which, of all the books in the Bible, is most distinguished for figures and symbols; it cannot be maintained that it is “directly and clearly” affirmed; and it is not so taught that there is any uniformity of view among those who profess to hold it. In nothing has there been greater diversity among people than in the opinions of those who profess to hold the “literal” views respecting the personal reign of Christ on the earth. But this fact assuredly affords “presumptive” evidence that the doctrine of the literal resurrection of the saints a thousand years before the rest of the dead, is not intended to be taught.

(c) It is presumptive proof against this, that nothing is said of the employment of those who are raised up; of the reason why they are raised; of the new circumstances of their being; and of their condition when the thousand years shall have ended. In so important a matter as this, we can hardly suppose that the whole subject would be left to a single hint in a symbolical representation, depending on the doubtful meaning of a single word, and with nothing to enable us to determine, with absolute certainty, that this must be the meaning.

(d) If it be meant that this is a description of the resurrection of the “righteous” as such - embracing all the righteous - then it is wholly unlike all the other descriptions of the resurrection of the righteous that we have in the Bible. Here the account is confined to “those that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus,” and to “those who had not worshipped the beast.” If the righteous, as such, are here referred to, why are these particular classes specified? Why are not the usual general terms employed? Why is the account of the resurrection confined to these? Elsewhere in the Scriptures, the account of the resurrection is given in the most “general” terms (compare Mat_25:41; Joh_4:54; Joh_5:28-29; Rev_2:7; 1Co_15:23; Phi_3:20-21; 2Th_1:10; Heb_9:28; 1Jo_2:28-29; 1Jo_3:2); and if this had been the designed reference here, it is inconceivable why the statement should be limited to the martyrs, and to those who have evinced great fidelity in the midst of temptations and allurements to apostasy. These circumstances furnish strong “presumptive” proofs, at least, against the doctrine that there is to be a literal resurrection of all the saints at the beginning of the millennial period. Compare “Christ’s Second Coming,” by David Brown, p. 219ff.

(2) In reference to many of the views necessarily implied in the doctrine of the “second advent,” and avowed by those who hold that doctrine, it cannot be pretended that they receive any countenance or support from this passage. In the language of Prof. Stuart (Com. vol. ii. p. 479), there is “not a word of Christ’s descent to the earth at the beginning of the millennium. Nothing of the literal assembling of the Jews in Palestine; nothing of the Messiah’s temporal reign on earth; nothing of the overflowing abundance of worldly peace and plenty.” Indeed, in all this passage, there is not the remotest hint of the grandeur and magnificence of the reign of Christ as a literal king upon the earth; nothing of his having a splendid capital at Jerusalem, or anywhere else; nothing of a new dispensation of a miraculous kind; nothing of the renovation of the earth to fit it for the abode of the risen saints. All this is the mere work of fancy, and no man can pretend that it is to be found in this passage.

(3) nor is there anything here of a literal resurrection of the “bodies” of the dead, as Prof. Stuart himself supposes. It is not a little remarkable that a scholar so accurate as Prof. Stuart is, and one, too, who has so little sympathy with the doctrines connected with a literal reign of Christ on the earth, should have lent the sanction of his name to perhaps the most objectionable of all the dogmas connected with that view - the opinion that the “bodies” of the saints will be raised up at the beginning of the millennial period. Of this there is not one word, one intimation, one hint, in the passage before us. John says expressly, “and as if to guard the point from all possible danger of this construction,” that he “saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus”; he saw them “living” and “reigning” with Christ - raised to the exalted honor during that period, as if they had been raised from the dead; but he nowhere mentions or intimates that they were raised up from their graves; that they were clothed with bodies; that they had their residence now literally on the earth; or that they were, in any way, otherwise than disembodied spirits. There is not even one word of their having “a spiritual body.”

(4) there are “positive” arguments, which are perfectly decisive, against the interpretation which supposes that the bodies of the saints will be raised up at the beginning of the millennial period, to reign with Christ on the earth for a thousand years. Among these are the following:

(a) If the “first resurrection” means rising from the grave in immortal and glorified bodies, we do not need the assurance Rev_20:6, that on such the second death hath no power”; that is, that they would not perish forever. That would be a matter of course, and there was no necessity for such a statement. But if it be supposed that the main idea is that the “principles” of the martyrs and of the most eminent saints would be revived and would live, as if the dead were raised up, and would be manifested by those who were in “mortal” bodies - people living on the earth - then there would be a propriety in saying that all such were exempt from the danger of the “second” death. “Once,” indeed, they would die; but the “second” death could not reach them. Compare Rev_2:10-11.

(b) In the whole passage there are but two classes of people referred to. There are those “who have part in the first resurrection”; that is, according to the supposition, all the saints; and there are those over whom “the second death” has power. Into which of these classes are we to put the myriads of people having flesh and blood who are to people the world during the millennium? They have no part in “the first resurrection,” if it be a bodily one. Are they then given over to the power of the “second death?” But if the “first resurrection” be regarded as figurative and spiritual, then the statement that those who are actuated by the spirit of the martyrs and of the eminent saints, shall not experience the “second death,” is seen to have meaning and pertinency.

(c) The mention of the “time” during which they are to reign, if it be literally understood, is contrary to the whole statement of the Bible in other places. They are to “live and reign with Christ” “a thousand years.” What, then? Are they to live no longer? Are they to reign no longer with him? This supposition is entirely contrary to the current statement in the Scriptures, which is, that they are to live and reign with him forever: 1Th_4:17, “And so shall we ever be with the Lord.” According to the views of the “literalists,” the declaration that they “should live and reign with Christ,” considered as the characteristic features of the millennial state, is to terminate with the thousand years - for this is the promise, according to that view, that they should thus live and reign. But it need not be said that this is wholly contrary to the current doctrine of the Bible, that they are to live and reign with him forever.

(d) A further objection to this view is, that the wicked part of the world - “the rest of the dead who lived not again until the thousand years were finished” - must of course be expected to “live again” in the same bodily sense wheat those thousand years were finished. But, so far from this, there is no mention of their living then. When the thousand years are finished, Satan is loosed for a season; then the nations are roused to opposition against God; then there is a conflict, and the hostile forces are overthrown; and then comes the final judgment. During all this time we read of no resurrection at all. The period after this is to be filled up with something besides the resurrection of the “rest of the dead.” There is no intheation, as the “literal” construction, as it is claimed, would demand, that immediately after the “thousand years arc finished” the “rest of the dead” - the wicked dead - would be raised up; nor is there any intimation of such a resurrection until all the dead are raised up for the final trial, Rev_20:12. But every consideration demands, if the interpretation of the “literalists” be correct, that the “rest of the dead” - the unconverted dead - should be raised up immediately after the close of the millennial period, and be raised up as a distinct and separate class.

(e) There is no intimation in the passage itself that the “righteous” will be raised up “as such” in this period, and the proper interpretation of the passage is contrary to that supposition. There are but two classes mentioned as having part in the first resurrection. They are those who were “beheaded for the witness of Jesus,” and those who “had not worshipped the beast” - that is, the martyrs, and those who had been eminent for their fidelity to the Saviour in times of great temptation and trial. There is no mention of the resurrection of the righteous as “such” - of the resurrection of the great body of the redeemed; and if it could be shown that this refers to a “literal” resurrection, it would be impossible to apply it, according to any just rules of interpretation, to anymore than the two classes that are specified. By what rules of interpretation is it made to to teach that “all” the righteous will be raised up on that occasion, and will live on the earth during that long period? In this view of the matter, the passage “does not” express the doctrine that the whole church ofi God will be raised bodily from the grave. And supposing it had been the design of the Spirit of God to teach this, is it credible, when there are so many clear expressions in regard to the resurrection of the dead, that so important a doctrine should have been reserved for one single passage so obscure, and where the great mass of the readers of the Bible in all ages have failed to perceive it? That is not the way in which, in the Scriptures, great and momentous doctrines are communicated to mankind.

(f) The fair statement in Rev_20:11-15 is, that all the dead will then be raised up and be judged. This is implied in the general expressions there used - “the dead, small and great”; the “book of life was opened” - as if not opened before; “the dead” - all the dead - “were judged out of those things which were written in the books”; “the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and hell (hades) delivered up the dead which were in them.” This is entirely inconsistent with the supposition that a large part of the race to wit, all the righteous - had been before raised up; had passed the solemn judgment; had been clothed with their immortal bodies, and had been admitted to a joint reign with the Saviour on his throne. In the last judgment what place are they to occupy? In what sense are they to be raised up and judged? Would such a representation have been made as is found in Rev_20:11-15, if it had been designed to teach that a large part of the race had been already raised up, and had received the approval of their judge?

(g) This representation is wholly inconsistent, not only with Rev_20:11-15, but with the uniform language of the Scriptures, “that all the righteous and the wicked will be judged together, and both at the coming of Christ.” On no point are the statements of the Bible more uniform and explicit than on this, and it would seem that the declarations had been of design so made that there should be no possibility of mistake. I refer for full proof on this point to the following passages of the New Testament: Mat_10:32-33, compared with Mat_7:21-23; Mat_13:30, Mat_13:38-43; Mat_16:24-27; Mat_25:10,31-46; Mar_8:38; Joh_5:28-29; Act_17:31; Rom_2:5-16; Rom_14:10, Rom_14:12; 1Co_3:12-15; 1Co_4:5; 2Co_5:9-11; 2Th_1:6-10; 1Ti_5:24-25; 2Pe_3:7, 2Pe_3:10, 2Pe_3:12; 1Jo_2:28; 1Jo_4:17; Rev_3:5; Rev_20:11-15; Rev_22:12-15. It is utterly “impossible” to explain these passages on any other supposition than that they are intended to teach that the righteous and the wicked will be judged together, and both at the coming of Christ. And if this is so, it is of course impossible to explain them consistently with the view that all the righteous will have been already raised up at the beginning of the millennium in their immortal and glorified bodies, and that they have been solemnly approved by the Saviour, and admitted to a participation in his glory. Nothing could be more irreconcilable than these two views; and it seems to me, therefore, that the objections to the literal resurrection of the saints at the beginning of the millennial period are insuperable.

III. The following points, then, according to the interpretation proposed, are implied in this statement respecting the “first resurrection,” and these will clearly comprise all that is stated on the subject:

(1) There will be a reviving, and a prevalence of the spirit which actuated the saints in the best days, and a restoration of their principles as the grand principles which will control and govern the church, as if the most eminent saints were raised again from the dead, and lived and acted upon the earth.

(2) their memory will then be sacredly cherished, and they will be honored on the earth with the honor which is due to theft names, and which they should have received when in the land of the living. They will be no longer cast out and reproached; no longer held up to obloquy and scorn; no longer despised and forgotten; but there will be a reviving of sacred regard for their principles, as if they lived on the earth, and had the honor which was due to them.

(3) there will be a state of things upon the earth as if they thus lived and were thus honored. Religion will no longer be trampled under foot, but will triumph. In all parts of the earth it will have the ascendency, as if the most eminent saints of past ages lived and reigned with the Son of God in his kingdom. A spiritual kingdom will be set up with the Son of God at the head of it, which will be a kingdom of eminent holiness, as if the saints of the best days of the church should come back to the earth and dwell upon it. The ruling influence in the world will be the religion of the Son of God, and the principles which have governed the most holy of his people.

(4) it may be implied that the saints and martyrs of other times will be employed by the Saviour in embassies of mercy; in visitations of grace to our world to carry forward the great work of salvation on earth. Nothing forbids the idea that the saints in heaven may be thus employed, and in this long period of a thousand years, it may be that they will be occupied in such messages and agencies of mercy to our world as they have never been before - as if they were raised from the dead, and were employed by the Redeemer to carry forward his purposes of mercy to mankind.

(5) in connection with these things, and in consequence of these things, they may be, during that period, exalted to higher happiness and honor in heaven. The restoration of their principles to the earth; the Christian remembrance of their virtues; the prevalence of those truths to establish which they laid down their lives, would in itself exalt them, and would increase their joy in heaven. All this would be well represented, in vision, by a resurrection of the dead; and admitting that this was all that was intended, the representation of John here would be in the highest degree appropriate. What could better symbolize it - and we must remember that this is a symbol - than to say that at the commencement of this period there was, as it were, a solemn preparation for a judgment, and that the departed dead seemed to stand there, and that a sentence was pronounced in their favor, and that they became associated with the Son of God in the honors of his kingdom, and that their principles were now to reign and triumph in the earth, and that the kingdom which they labored to establish would be set up for a thousand years, and that, in high purposes of mercy and benevolence during that period, they would be employed in maintaining and extending the principles of religion in the world? Admitting that the Holy Spirit intended to represent these things, and these only, no more appropriate symbolical language could have been used; none that would more accord with the general style of the Book of Revelation.
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golfjack · Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 7:39 am Post subject: reply

Hi Rev. J.P., Boy, what a long post. You mentioned Mr. Stuart. Who is he? Is he Moses Stuart? You have stated a Whole Lot. Have you read the writings of the following: Kenneth L.Gentry; David Chilton; Gary Demar; and R.C. Sproul? I believe all these views are Preterists views. Are yyou a Preterest, or do you have a futurest view?

May God bless, golfjack

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 7005 Location: USA

Actually I hold no real eschatological view whatsoever. I guess you could say I am not a pre-trib or post-trib guy. I am more of a pan-trib guy - I believe it will all 'pan' out in the end Laughing

My bible tells me that 'no one knows the day nor the hour....' and so I put little stock in the eschatology opinions presented most of the time.

My personal view is that my life in Christ is here, and now. It concerns me little what may or may not happen at the end of the world, if there is or is not a rapture before or after a tribulation, or any such ideas. I am Gospel oriented, my focus and my mission in life, from God, is to spread the Good News of Christ, I focus on that and the biblical teachings which apply and effect us in our lives and our lives in Him. The rest is for academic speculation, which I have discovered I have minimal interest in other than as a interesting discussion now and again.
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golfjack · Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 8:43 am Post subject: reply

Thanks for your comment. All, I am saying is that the Preterest view is that that the second coming happened in A.D. 70, which is a false teaching, and should be rebuked. Yes, noone knows when Jesus will come back for His Church, but we can be sure of the 21 Judgements mentioned in the Book of Revelation. This is why I preach the Word of God as evangelist, with Healing Miracles following me. Personnaly, I believe the Church has done a bad Job in teaching the Word. Of course, the book of Revelation should be taught by a qualified teacher, who is well grounded in the Word of God.

May God bless, golfjack

Nobby · Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 9:55 am Post subject:

Hi golfjack, I personally believe in pre-tribulation, because I don't believe that God will put His people thru that. But your right no way to know when
Jesus will return. I just know it will be quickly, & I have to be ready! Very Happy

The blink of an eye is very quick! Very Happy

If Jesus has already come back, how come were not seeing any of our old friends & loved-ones that died loving Christ? Bible says we'll all be caught up to the clouds to meet him.
Those that are his, will hear the trumpet & the shout! We'll be changed in the twinkling of an eye! I could look it up but I'm lazy, but one will be taken, the other left. Don't you think that would stir up quite a bit of front page news??? Very Happy

Especially when this happens all over the world! Confused or disgusted

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golfjack · Posted: Thu Sep 29, 2005 10:38 am Post subject: reply

Hi Nobby, my Brother in Christ. You have really made my day confirming what the Word of God says about End-Times. I am still laughing after reading your message, about what the World will think about when all Believers will depart into the third heaven. I imagine that the anti-christ will tell the people that evil has been taken out (ha, ha). What a glorious day (brand new glorified body). Yes, we will see our relatives and friends who accepted Christ, and to think that We will finally see our Lord Jesus Christ face to face (Praise God, who is worthy to be praised). During the first three and half years, we do know that many will be saved, but if oone takes the mark of the beast, see you later alligator. I can just hear their cry, I thought that Nero was the Anti-christ that came around A.D. 69 or 70.

Again, thanks for backing me up, or should I say the Lord Jesus Christ.

May God bless, golfjack

david2 · Booted Joined: 29 Sep 2005 Posts: 81

good day, and welcome me,
this is my first post and i come walking on the ground, with the Good Word to fill in the blanks.
So where do we begin.?

peace
your friend in end- times
David2