Has the Law of Moses been Abolished?

Van

Has the Law of Moses been abolished. Did Christ's "finished" work on the Cross fulfill the Law and thus mark the time when the Law passed away.
And does this fulfillment apply generally to everybody, such that nobody, Jew or Gentile, Saved or Unsaved is under the Law?

Has the Law of Moses been abolished only for those "in Christ"?

Were the Civil Laws given by the Lord to the nation of Israel abolished by the finished work of Christ, which torn down the barrier between Jew and Gentile?

Were the Cerimonial Laws and regulations concerning temple worship and sacrificial offerings set aside by the finished work of the Cross. For everybody or just those in Christ?

Were the Moral Laws set aside not in their application as guidance, but in their effect (the Ministry of Death) by the finished work of Christ?

At the heart of this debate, endlessly repeated on this discussion board, are two doctrines of men. Covenent Theology and Dispensational Theology. Dispensationalists believe that the whole Law has been abolished except for those specific requirements restated in the N.T. The other view believes the whole law remains in effect, except for those parts specifically set aside (fulfilled and thus rendered moot).

Here is what I believe:

The Whole Law remains in effect, except for what has been fulfilled or set aside or abolished. I think the Cerimonial Laws and regulations have been abolished, I think the Civil Laws have been abolished, but I think the Moral Laws remain in effect for those not "in Christ." These moral laws also have an application toward Christians as guidance into Godly living, but because of the blood of the lamb, they carry no penality of separation from God for violation.

Tiger75 · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:12 am Post subject:

Romans 7:22 tells us

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

The world has been judged before without a Mosaic law--as in the flood. There were no writings from Moses that judged them then.

Regarding civil, ceremonial, moral, I see no distinctions in scripture. It's all one law given to fleshly Israel. You would have to go through and single them out into seperate categories to get these divisions. What would the sabbath be, moral, ceremonial or civil?

My question is, since the "ceremonial" aspect has ceased, why in the world do so many Christians expect Jesus to set up a physical temple in the future, and re-establish these rituals?
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The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

Van · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 10:26 am Post subject:

Excellent questions, what are your answers?

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:54 pm Post subject:

Your statement that either the Law of Moses is fully in effect, or fully abolished, together with your statement that the Law is fulfilled may mean you think the whole Law is abolished. Anyway, that is how I understand your post.

Anyone else have a view they wish to put forward.

AllSop · Sea Monkey Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Texas

If I may be so bold as to submit my understanding. Laughing

Yes, it has been abolished for all.
Yes, it applies to all.
No, is hasn't been abolished for only those in Christ.

Civil laws were not abolished, but are reinforced by Christian principals (“obey governing authorities”) but the religious value of any such laws in effect are gone. In other words, it was still wrong to commit adultery or murder under civil laws, as established by the Law of Moses, and this did not “end” with the abolition of the Law of Moses. There is nothing WRONG with a person raised as a Jew to continue to abide by the traditions they learned as long as it wasn’t in conflict with Christ. Sacrifices would be. Enforcing the Sabbath would be.

Ceremonial laws were ended, and to this day, even the Jews do not offer sacrifices or the daily sacrifices at the temple, both in their meaning to God (meaningless under Christ) and in practice – sacrifices at the temple ended in 70 AD and never resumed.

Moral laws were not "set aside" or disregarded. They are "fulfilled" when you "love your neighbor as yourself."

They are moot only "technically." Otherwise the NT has many admonisions not only to "love your neighbor as yourself" but "to not lie, to not steal, to no be immoral, etc." These are "expounding" upon what loving your neighbor is.

From my understanding, the dispensationalists are correct. Sorry! The “covenant theologists” are accepting a “natural or human explanation” of why the Law of Moses exists in the first place. We want to “explain away” on God’s behalf why such a law would have existed in the first place. Hence, this kind of conclusion.

The New Testament’s position on this is unquestionable, however.

Okay, let me see if I can clarify a few points

The PROMISE to Abraham for the Messiah was made BEFORE the law of Moses. The promise to EVE that “he shall bruise his heel but you shall bruise his head” (that Christ would inflict a mortal wound on Satan) was before the law of Moses.

There are NUMEROUS illustrations of this. Let me hit on a few…

Why was the Law of Moses given? When asked about divorce, Jesus said “from the beginning (before Moses) it was not so, but because of your hardness of heart, Moses granted divorce….”

Jesus said “the law shall not pass away until every jot and tilde has been fulfilled.” So he predicted it’s passing away.

The Law of Moses was a “temporary patch” to keep the children of Israel from destroying themselves until Christ came:

Gal 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could make alive, verily righteousness would have been of the law. [ the law cannot save – if it could, Christ died needlessly]
Gal 3:22 But the scriptures shut up all things under sin [the law], that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Gal 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept in ward under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24 So that the law is become our tutor to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
Gal 3:25 But now faith that is come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Gal 3:26 For ye are all sons of God, through faith, in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:29 And if ye are Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, heirs according to promise.

Further, anyone attempting to keep the law as a means of justification were condemned (lost!). That didn’t mean the Jews couldn’t continue to observe their customs, but that it was NOT NEEDED, and any attempt to bind it on others was SIN, and nullified the message of the gospel, and any THOUGHT you might hold that it justified you also had a CONDEMING effect on you – because you cannot at the same time think that you are forgiven and you earn your salvation.

Gal 2:11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I resisted him to the face, because he stood condemned.
Gal 2:12 For before that certain came from James, he ate with the Gentiles; but when they came, he drew back and separated himself, fearing them that were of the circumcision. [Peter was intimidated by Jewish Christians so that when they came around, he BEGAN TO OBSERVE AGAIN Jewish customs, including separating from the Gentiles – even if they were Christians]
Gal 2:13 And the rest of the Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that even Barnabas was carried away with their dissimulation.
Gal 2:14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Cephas before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest as do the Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, how compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
Gal 2:15 We being Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, [being trained as Jews, we are trained to behave ourselves and keep the traditions – not that Gentiles were “more sinners” than Jews]
Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we [we = “we Jews!”] believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17 But if, while we sought to be justified in Christ, we ourselves also were found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed [if I build up the LAW OF MOSES again], I prove myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I [Jew or gentile] through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me.
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

Has he been direct enough? Apparently not:

Gal 5:1 For freedom did Christ set us free: stand fast therefore, and be not entangled again in a yoke of bondage [i.e. the Law!]
Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that, if ye receive circumcision [keep the law], Christ will profit you nothing.
Gal 5:3 Yea, I testify again to every man that receiveth circumcision, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.
Gal 5:4 Ye are severed from Christ, ye would be justified by the law; ye are fallen away from grace.

In Christ keeping the law has not effect:

Gal 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision; but faith working through love.

The law of Christ – or “law of freedom” is not lawlessness as some accused Paul (Romans) but INTELIGENT OBEDIENCE that leads to doing right on every point:

Gal 5:13 For ye, brethren, were called for freedom; only use not your freedom for an occasion to the flesh, but through love be servants one to another.
Gal 5:14 For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

So the GOOD THINGS that the law of Moses enforced are still applicable by keeping the law of Christ – to love one another.

The conclusion is, the LAW was completely abolished, and the Law of Christ set up in it’s place “fulfills” all these other issues of morality of the law. So you could say that it “set up again” that some parts of the Law of Moses were ALWAYS (even before Moses) binding and are under Christ.

The “written ordinances” of the law are described as “nailed to the cross” “taken out of the way”

Col 2:10 and in him ye are made full, who is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 in whom ye were also circumcised with a circumcision not made with hands, in the putting off of the body of the flesh, in the circumcision of Christ;
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, wherein ye were also raised with him through faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead through your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, you, I say, did he make alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses;
Col 2:14 having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;
Col 2:15 having despoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

Also

Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also were made dead to the law through the body of Christ; that ye should be joined to another, even to him who was raised from the dead, that we might bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were through the law, wrought in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

Also:

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth.

Therefore, the law is NOT to be applied as binding:

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day:
Col 2:17 which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ's.

1Co 8:8 But food will not commend us to God: neither, if we eat not, are we the worse; nor, if we eat, are we the better

The rituals of hand-washing and ceremonial compliance were not binding, and we are NOT to subject ourselves to any such kind of rules – here is the explanation:

Col 2:20 If ye died with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, do ye subject yourselves to ordinances,
Col 2:21 “Handle not, nor taste, nor touch”
Col 2:22 (all which things are to perish with the using), after the precepts and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will-worship, and humility, and severity to the body; but are not of any value against the indulgence of the flesh.

There’s why. Because they have an appearance of value, but in the end, they aren’t, but only a pure heart living in love.

This results in MORAL LIVING:

Col 3:5 Put to death therefore your members which are upon the earth: fornication, uncleanness, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry;
Col 3:6 for which things' sake cometh the wrath of God upon the sons of disobedience:
Col 3:7 wherein ye also once walked, when ye lived in these things;
Col 3:8 but now do ye also put them all away: anger, wrath, malice, railing, shameful speaking out of your mouth:
Col 3:9 lie not one to another; seeing that ye have put off the old man with his doings,
Col 3:10 and have put on the new man, that is being renewed unto knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as God's elect, holy and beloved, a heart of compassion, kindness, lowliness, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 forbearing one another, and forgiving each other, if any man have a complaint against any; even as the Lord forgave you, so also do ye:
Col 3:14 and above all these things put on love, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to the which also ye were called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly; in all wisdom teaching and admonishing one another with psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts unto God.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do, in word or in deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God the Father through him.

Why does this law “work”. Because of the motivation:

Col 3:23 whatsoever ye do, work heartily, as unto the Lord, and not unto men;

We don’t do it to please ourselves or men, but God.

Regarding how those “outside of Christ will be judged”. Jesus said that in the last day “the words that he spoke will be their judge”, and “apart from me you can do nothing…. “ etc.

“For the times of IGNORANCE God once overlooked, but NOW commands that ALL MEN EVERYWHERE should repent and come to a knowledge of the truth.”

NOW you must come to a knowledge of the truth to please God.

ALL men EVERYWHERE (Jew or Gentile) will be judged exactly by the same “rules”:

Rom 2:4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering, not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
Rom 2:5 but after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up for thyself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 who will render to every man according to his works:
Rom 2:7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 but unto them that are factious, and obey not the truth, but obey unrighteousness, shall be wrath and indignation,
Rom 2:9 tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that worketh evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Greek;
Rom 2:10 but glory and honor and peace to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Greek:
Rom 2:11 for there is no respect of persons with God.
Rom 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without the law: and as many as have sinned under the law shall be judged by the law;

Now up pops a passage that places a question before us: What about those who never heard, etc.

Rom 2:13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified:
Rom 2:14 (for when Gentiles that have not the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are the law unto themselves;
Rom 2:15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them);
Rom 2:16 in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my gospel, by Jesus Christ.

This cannot be understood to say that if people do right but without a knowledge of Christ are saved, will be saved anyway. That is in contradiction with those earlier passages.

Men’s means of judging people based on keeping the law was not valid – instead “He is a Jew who is one INWARDLY”

Rom 2:25 For circumcision indeed profiteth, if thou be a doer of the law: but if thou be a transgressor of the law, thy circumcision is become uncircumcision.
Rom 2:26 If therefore the uncircumcision keep the ordinances of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be reckoned for circumcision?
Rom 2:27 and shall not the uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who with the letter and circumcision art a transgressor of the law?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Also

For they are not all Israel, that are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 neither, because they are Abraham's seed, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, it is not the children of the flesh that are children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for a seed.

Rom 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it speaketh to them that are under the law; that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may be brought under the judgment of God: [the purpose of the law was to silence those under the law who did wrong]
Rom 3:20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin.
Rom 3:21 But now apart from the law a righteousness of God hath been manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction;
Rom 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;
Rom 3:24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

Is the Law of Moses still in effect? Well, “in a way” as Paul says here:

Rom 3:31 Do we then make the law of none effect through faith? God forbid: nay, we establish the law.

Here is another passage where the Law of Christ causes us to do things “like” the law of Moses:

Tit 1:15 To the pure all things are pure: but to them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

1Co 6:12 All things are lawful for me; but not all things are expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be brought under the power of any.
1Co 6:13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall bring to nought both it and them. But the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body:
1Co 6:14 and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up as through his power.
1Co 6:15 Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a harlot? God forbid.
1Co 6:16 Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh.
1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or know ye not that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit which is in you, which ye have from God? and ye are not your own;
1Co 6:20 for ye were bought with a price: glorify God therefore in your body.

Remember, Abraham was justified by faith WITHOUT the law:

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness.

The promises to Abraham did not “DEPEND” on the law:

Rom 4:13 For not through the law was the promise to Abraham or to his seed that he should be heir of the world, but through the righteousness of faith.

The Law seemed to “provoke” people to rebel:

Rom 4:14 For if they that are of the law are heirs, faith is made void, and the promise is made of none effect:
Rom 4:15 for the law worketh wrath; but where there is no law, neither is there transgression

Romans 2 – 5 is all about this and once you get “comfortable” with all it says, it makes plenty of sense. The problem is reconciling it to our assumptions.

Sorry this is so long!

Van · Posted: Mon Sep 22, 2003 9:22 pm Post subject:

Let me summarize. You believe that the whole law has been abolished for everybody. But the scripture you provided clearly indicated that law was abolished only for those that believe. I did not one reference to support that the effect of the law (making people aware they are dead in their transgressions) has been abolished.

You may be right in your belief, but I did not see any support for the idea. Rather, based on your referenced passages, I see support for the idea that the Law, or some part of the Law - what I call the Moral Law - is still in effect.

For example: "Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law unto righteousness to every one that believeth." This verse suggests to me at least that Christ is not the end of the Law if you do not believe.

If the Law is a tutor to lead us to Christ, then it must still be in effect for non-believers.

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6886 Location: USA

From a rather simplistic view of things let me ask:

How can one reconcile the fact that we are saved by Grace through faith, with the idea that we are still somehow subject to the dictates of OT law? Doesn't compulsory obedience to a set of rules by definition contradict salvation by Grace through Faith?
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JP's Mind - my blog

Van · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:21 am Post subject:

RevJp, no one is saying the Law of Moses applies to saved persons. But the question is: Does the Law of Moses, or part of the Law (Moral Law) apply to the unsaved?

For saved people, living godly lifes, the Law (moral law) helps us know what the will of God is. For example the whole moral law is summed up in the Commandment to love your neighbor as yourself. But if you want to gain a better understanding of what "love your neighbor" means you can read the moral law concerning justice, mercy and helping others in need. For example, read Deuteronomy Chapter 10:17-18

vsjb34 · Fierce Poodle Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 281

All ten of the moral laws are talked about in the New Testament except the Sabbath. I defy anyone to say that it is okay by New Testament standards to commit adultery, lie, steal, covet, set up an image, etc. These commandments still apply to us. Those outside of Christ will be judged by them in the end. No, they do not save us, but to swing to the other extreme and say that we can break them or disregard them is unscriptural.

Zathrus · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:25 am Post subject: My answer

Here's my understanding.
As has been pointed out, the Bible treats the law as an indivisible unit, not to be split up into civil, ceremonial, moral, or otherwise.
I believe Jesus Christ to have fully met its requirements and fulfilled it for us.
It and the old covanent it was an integral part of served a purpose until the time Christ was sent into the world. When its purpose had been fulfilled, it became obsolete and was abolished in full.

vsjb34, while I will not say that infidelity, lying, cheating, stealing, etc are healthy things to do, I will say that by New Testament standards, any mistake we may make, no matter how grave, has already been payed for and washed clean by the blood Jesus shed for us. By New Teatament standards, God does not hold our faults and mistakes against us no matter how serious or how frequent they may be.

And by New Testament standards, there is no longer a law making us all transgressors, guilty in God's sight. Very Happy

God's grace and mercy go far beyond what we can imagine. Very Happy

The good news is better news than we even realized. Very Happy

AllSop · Sea Monkey Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Texas

Consider this. What will judge men in the last day? By whom must one be saved? Jesus Christ, and the words he spoke.

God, being “no respecter of persons” does not otherwise apply his laws unequally among the unsaved. They are lost, and stand condemned.

“.. the end of the law to everyone that believes” acknowledges that those who don’t believe MAY continue to try to keep the law. Whether it is only that they are trying to keep it because they aren’t Christians, or whether they are trying to keep it “to be saved”, they are still condemned. “By works of the law shall no man be saved.”

To dispute what “laws of God” apply to people outside of Christ is, as you suggested earlier, a moot point, and an example of the very kind of discussions that we should not be entangled in.

Still – technically - the Law of Moses was NOT “left in effect” but voided only for those who believed. It was abolished (that is the word used). “a tutor to bring us to Christ” means a caretaker to keep us from destroying ourselves until Christ (i.e. the time of Christ). “Until Christ” means until Christ came – not until you believe. If the law is “in effect” “until you obey”, then it still condemns you until you obey. Obeying the law or not makes no difference.

Any “law” of God that has no different effects whether you obey it or not is not a law at all. Hence, from that logical approach alone, it is not in effect.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeys not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

Finally, what law will the Jews who don’t accept Christ be judged by? The Law of Christ. Not the law of moses.

Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day.

Van · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 9:40 am Post subject:

So the words of Jesus that says depart from me, those that practice lawlessness have no application for unsaved people? Me thinks those that say there is no consequence for lawlessness are teaching unsound doctrine.

AllSop · Sea Monkey Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Texas