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Christopher_John
Tadpole
Joined: 21 Jun 2007
Posts: 15
Location: Montreal, Canada
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 Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 5:04 am Post subject: Re: Millennial Law |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: | | Christopher_John wrote: | If you are a Jewish believer and you eat pork you have not committed any form of sin because you are now under the law of Christ and not under the Mosaic law, it's not what a man puts in his mouth that makes him unclean, it's what proceeds from his mouth that makes him unclean.
In Christ
CJ |
Hi CJ,
I have a question for you.
In light of what you say in the above......how do you understand Isaiah 66:15-17 ?
66:15 For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.
66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.
66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one [tree] in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. |
Hi Silver Surfer,
If we look at verses 10-14 we get a glimpse of Millennial Israel or Jerusalem. As the Mosaic Law came to an end with the death of Christ, the law of Christ will also come to an end with changes to the law instituted for the Millennial Kingdom.
During the Millennial reign the Mosaic Law will be re-instituted or re-established, but, under "Kingdom Law" as some theologians have termed it.
Again keeping in mind it will not be the actual "Mosaic Law" but "Kingdom Law", observance of food restrictions will be re-established under this new system, just as certain commandments were carried over from the Mosaic Law to the Law of Christ, certain elements of the Mosaic Law will be re-instituted for the Millennial reign with the exception that now Gentiles will be obligated to comply with this Law, not just Jews.
Verses 15-17 basically define how God will deal with those who break "Kingdom Law" with verse 16 defining that God will deal with them by fire and His sword for transgression of Kingdom Law.
Peace
CJ |
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Steven3
Lion King
Joined: 10 Jul 2007
Posts: 1205
Location: UK
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| Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: In Perfect Clarity |
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Hi SS | Silver Surfer wrote: | | Is66:17 They that sanctify themselves, and purify themselves in the gardens behind one tree in the midst, eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the LORD. |
I can see that this looks like a prophecy that the food requirements of the Law of Moses will be continued in the Kingdom Age. And if there was no NT comment on the subject we'd all be non-pork eaters. No disagreement.
But there is NT comment:
 Acts 15 The Jerusalem council considered the demands on believers in Antioch and wrote a letter making no burden beyond avoiding meat that was strangled and idol meat. That allowed Gentile Christians to eat 90% of meats.
1Co 8-10 Then later to the Corinthians Paul went further than the Jerusalem Council and stated that all meats were clean. And told us to buy whatever we wanted at Wal-Mart not asking questions.
We cannot erase NT teaching simply because we want to take an OT prophecy literally. James and Paul would have been just as aware of Is66 as we are, and they couldn't have taken it literally, or they've just contradicted themselves.
* incidentally, mention of pork in Is66:17, and similar language in other OT prophets, is why I, for one, don't take Ezekiel's temple prophecy literally.
God bless
Steven
_________________
Jo5:26 The Father ... has granted the Son also to have life in himself.
Ro6:10 the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God.
2Co13:4 he was crucified in weakness, but lives by the power of God. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2960
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: In Perfect Clarity |
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Christ paid a dear price for man's redemption.
In the wilderness of temptation He suffered the keenest pangs of hunger (Matthew 4:3,4); and while He was emaciated with fasting, Satan was at hand with his manifold temptations to assail the Son of God, to take advantage of His weakness and overcome Him, and thus thwart the plan of salvation.
But Christ was steadfast.
He overcame in behalf of the race, that He might rescue them from the degradation of the Fall.
Christ's experience is for our benefit.
His example in overcoming appetite points out the way for those who would be His followers and finally sit with Him on His throne.
Christ suffered hunger in the fullest sense.
Mankind generally have all that is needful to sustain life.
And yet, like our first parents, they desire that which God would withhold because it is not best for them.
Christ suffered hunger for necessary food and resisted the temptation of Satan upon the point of appetite.
Indulgence of intemperate appetite creates in fallen man unnatural desires for the things which will eventually prove his ruin.
Satan saw that he must either conquer or be conquered.
The issues of the conflict involved too much to be entrusted to his confederate angels.
He must personally conduct the warfare.
All the energies of apostasy were rallied against the Son of God.
Christ was made the mark of every weapon of hell.
Many look on this conflict between Christ and Satan as having no special bearing on their own life; and for them it has little interest.(Matthew 4:4)
But within the domain of every human heart this controversy is repeated.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2265
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 5:44 am Post subject: Re: In Perfect Clarity |
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| Steven3 wrote: | We cannot erase NT teaching simply because we want to take an OT prophecy literally. James and Paul would have been just as aware of Is66 as we are, and they couldn't have taken it literally, or they've just contradicted themselves.
* incidentally, mention of pork in Is66:17, and similar language in other OT prophets, is why I, for one, don't take Ezekiel's temple prophecy literally.
God bless
Steven |
Excellent points, Steven, and I agree. In studying old testament prophecy, it has become more clear to me that the prophets described new covenant realities in terms which they and their contemporaries who lived under the old covenant order could understand. The evangelism of the Gentiles is described in the same chapter as bringing their brethren out of all nations for a sweet sacrifice. Paul alluded to this passage in one of his letters, when he spoke of the "offering up of the Gentiles" as being acceptable to God.
The writers of the new testament wrote that the prophets themselves, who wrote the prophecies which were fulfilled by the coming of Jesus Christ, His death and resurrection, and the birth of the church ans establishment of the new covenant, were not able to actually understand all these things that they wrote about, but wanted to. I think that's why God revealed His plan in terms they were familiar with, and which indeed were shadows and types of the true fulfillment. But the prophets weren't able to understand, in their time, just how God planned to fulfill the things He was giving them a glimpse of. The magnitude of His great plan of salvation would have blown their minds. And I'm sure it did when they saw it fulfilled.
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Establishing the law by receiving the righteousness which is by faith, without the deeds of the law!
2 Cor 3 "11For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious."
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atoz
Emperor of the Solar System
Joined: 28 Jun 2007
Posts: 4189
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| Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: In Perfect Clarity |
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| Silver Surfer wrote: |
....
Many look on this conflict between Christ and Satan as having no special bearing on their own life; and for them it has little interest.(Matthew 4:4)
But within the domain of every human heart this controversy is repeated. |
Xlnt, SS!
in Godly Love for all good enemies and all bad friends, and vice versa,smile
atoz |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2960
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 11, 2007 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Millennial Law |
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That is WHY God warned, about Paul's writings.....
2 Peter 3:15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
What most people in the Christian world need to study out VERY CAREFULLY......is, The Law of Moses, and the 10 commandments....in the Old Testament Scriptures, which are the very foundation of the Gospel message.
Unless a person can see the difference between them.....Paul's writings will be misunderstood, especailly in Galations.
_________________
Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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remnant
Tadpole
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 9:25 pm Post subject: |
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| I am just wondering if the 10 Commandments are that important as to save us, then why did the Lord dismissed it to the astonishment and amazement of all including His disciples in Mat 19: 16-30, Mk 10: 17-30, Lk 18: 18-30. Everyone back then knew the 10 Commandments was the way to obtain eternal life the Lord, Himself, quoted it in v.17 in Mat. and mentioned 6 of the 10 Commandments. But what transpired in the conversation between the Lord and the rich ruler astonished all since observing the 10 Commandments was not enough neither a guarantee to enter salvation that prompted Peter to ask who can be saved? Read the answer of the Lord in Mt 19:20, Mk 10:29-30, Lk 18:29-30 = Those who left everything for His Name's sake (Mt v. 29), for His sake and for the gospel's sake (Mk v.29), for the sake of the kingdom of God (Lk v.29). This is in view, I think, of the New Covenant He established on His death and resurrection. |
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Silver Surfer
King Kong
Joined: 12 Jul 2003
Posts: 2960
Location: Hayden, Idaho, USA
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 5:33 am Post subject: |
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| remnant wrote: | | I am just wondering if the 10 Commandments are that important as to save us, then why did the Lord dismissed it to the astonishment and amazement of all including His disciples in Mat 19: 16-30, Mk 10: 17-30, Lk 18: 18-30. |
SO...you disbelieve what Jesus said ?
Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
NOTE: 'fulfill' ...as in 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
QUESTION: Has heaven and earth passed away already ?
| Quote: |
Everyone back then knew the 10 Commandments was the way to obtain eternal life the Lord, Himself, quoted it in v.17 in Mat. and mentioned 6 of the 10 Commandments. |
Revelation 22:14 Blessed [are] they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
| Quote: |
But what transpired in the conversation between the Lord and the rich ruler astonished all since observing the 10 Commandments was not enough neither a guarantee to enter salvation that prompted Peter to ask who can be saved? Read the answer of the Lord in Mt 19:20, Mk 10:29-30, Lk 18:29-30 = Those who left everything for His Name's sake (Mt v. 29), for His sake and for the gospel's sake (Mk v.29), for the sake of the kingdom of God (Lk v.29). This is in view, I think, of the New Covenant He established on His death and resurrection. |
New Covenant reads that God will put HIS Laws into the heart and mind of men/women.....
Hebrews 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
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Matthew 5:11 Blessed are ye, when [men] shall revile you, and persecute [you], and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake. |
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pato
Kitten
Joined: 11 May 2007
Posts: 130
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:48 am Post subject: God's law |
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| remnant wrote: | | I am just wondering if the 10 Commandments are that important as to save us, then why did the Lord dismissed it to the astonishment and amazement of all including His disciples in Mat 19: 16-30, Mk 10: 17-30, Lk 18: 18-30. Everyone back then knew the 10 Commandments was the way to obtain eternal life the Lord, Himself, quoted it in v.17 in Mat. and mentioned 6 of the 10 Commandments. But what transpired in the conversation between the Lord and the rich ruler astonished all since observing the 10 Commandments was not enough neither a guarantee to enter salvation that prompted Peter to ask who can be saved? Read the answer of the Lord in Mt 19:20, Mk 10:29-30, Lk 18:29-30 = Those who left everything for His Name's sake (Mt v. 29), for His sake and for the gospel's sake (Mk v.29), for the sake of the kingdom of God (Lk v.29). This is in view, I think, of the New Covenant He established on His death and resurrection. |
Hi remnant, I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. The 10 commandments can be summarized in 2; Love toward God and Love toward neighbour. This young rich ruler made a point of telling Christ that he was all good on the love your neighbour part as he ammitted keeping those six from his youth, however, how was his "love toward God". Christ told him sell all and follow me, that was a problem, why? He was rich, he had it all, was this all "after God or "before" Him? The fact that He was unwilling to give it all up shows that his heart was not right toward God. Who was his God? His actions and attitude showed it wasn't the Father but was his possessions. That is idolatry. Christ said we must be willing to give up everything, father, mother, wife, husband, lands, whatever to be worthy to follow him. If your heart is where your treasure is and your treasure is not God and eternal life you are unfit for the Kingdom of God. I believe Christ was trying to teach this point, the fact that the disciples were shocked showed that they didn't quite get it either. I think what Christ was showing this young man was that he really wasn't keeping the 10 commandments afer all.
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Just my thoughts
Pato |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2717
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:31 am Post subject: |
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| remnant wrote: | | Everyone back then knew the 10 Commandments was the way to obtain eternal life |
Well we do have this verse:
Joh 5:39 KJV Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. But it would be more accurate to acknowledge that there were four “denominations” of Judaism during the time of Jesus (cf. Josephus), each having a different doctrine regarding one’s salvation:
Act 15:1 KJV And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. So we have at least one example of people back then who didn’t “know” the 10 were the way, but rather counted upon circumcision as the way, (even if circumcision plus Christ).
The problem many people encounter is that they have a heart of wanting to be righteous but have not had the baptism of the Spirit by which they can be led.
Rom 8:14 KJV For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. Without this, what is left? People will substitute the Bible or some catechism or some Pope-leader, or some list of commandments by which they preach one must be led.
Yehu
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There must be a God; Natural Selection would have gotten rid of you a long time ago. |
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Yehushuan
King Kong
Joined: 30 Mar 2006
Posts: 2717
Location: Charismatic
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 12:13 pm Post subject: |
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Surfer, we have been through this dance many times, but once around the park we go.
You are outraged thinking Jesus is disbelieved when he says:
| Silver Surfer wrote: | Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
NOTE: 'fulfill' ...as in 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make [it] honourable.
5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
QUESTION: Has heaven and earth passed away already ? |
Yet on the other hand you have said that some of those very same jots and tittles have been erased! 
| Silver Surfer (link) wrote: | Circumcision and animal sacrifices were abolished, just as the Bible says they were....
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; |
So have those jots and tittles about circumcision and animal sacrifices passed or not? Be asking yourself whether you believe Jesus or not.
QUESTION: Did you miss the part “till all be fulfilled”?
I’m sure you can find out that the word “fulfilled” is Strong’s #1096 – γινομαι (ginomai). Completed, ended, done, kaput, finished, over. Do you think Jesus’ ministry is not finished?
Gal 5:14 KJV For all the law is fulfilled (γινομαι) in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
SO...you disbelieve what Paul said ?
Now there are many more verses which declare the fulfillment of which Jesus speaks in Mat. 5:18 has been accomplished. (And if so jots and tittles may certainly pass from the law.)
But your argument against remnant surprises me because I thought you held the view that the TEN are completely separate from the Law, no? So if remnant expresses a view that the TEN are not important, you reply with an appeal to the Law’s jots and tittles? How does that compute?
Yehu
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remnant
Tadpole
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Pato, I think that's the reason why the Lord established the New Covenant. The 10 Commandments is not complete to make us righteous before God. If the Lord mentioned as well the first 4 of the 10 Commandments, the love towards God part, that is:
you shall have no other gods before Me.
you shall not make for yourself a carved image or idol
you shall not bow down to them nor serve them
you shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, I'm sure the rich young ruler would say that he has kept all these things from his youth up. But the Lord put the love towards God part into a question of where your treasure is there your heart is also (Mt 6:21) showing the rich ruler's greed and selfishness which amounts to idolatry (Col 3:5) also showing the flaw of the 10 Commandments.
I think the Lord is showing here that the terms and conditions of the Old Covenant - the 10 C0mmandments will be fulfilled on His death and resurrection and will establish a new one, much more so this time, with a promise (Jn 15:7) because He goes back to the Father to send us the Helper, the Spirit of truth. This new terms and condition (Jn 15:7) of the New Covenant is manifested in His new Commandment (Jn 13:34; 15:7), the love towards God and the love towards neighbours united or integrated into one new Commandment. And this new Commandment is manifested only if we have the Spirit of God to bear fruit (Jn 15:16).
only sharing my understanding - remnant |
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Dakryn
Tadpole
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:24 pm Post subject: Answers |
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Maybe what I posted in the other thread belongs in this one, instead of taking up more space posting I will just list its location. In short, no it has not been abolished, all scripture quoting in the thread
CAN ANYONE = = KEEP THE 10-COMMANDMENTS?
on page 7 of the thread.
I haven't been a member of the forum for more than 7 days so I cannot make it click-able. My apologies.
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Perception does not constitute Reality! |
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remnant
Tadpole
Joined: 30 May 2007
Posts: 15
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| Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:22 pm Post subject: |
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| I'm sure keeping the 10 Commandments and all of the Torah can be done. Going back again to that rich ruler, for sure, he kept the Commandments and all the rituals of the Mosaic law from his youth up that's why the Lord did not ask him the love towards God part of the 10 Commandments - the first 4 of the 10 Commandments, because if the Lord did, He will not be able to convict the rich ruler of his weakness, hence, exposing the 10 Commandments was not complete to bring salvation. So, although the rich ruler can love God with all his heart, mind, etc and his neighbour as himself, he cannot depart with his riches. Again, the rich ruler was able to keep the 10 Commandments and the entire Torah and all the Mosaic law from his youth up but one thing lacking, he cannot depart and share his riches. Although he can and was able to keep the Law, his love for his riches was paramount. The love that he learnt keeping the Law was defective because the Law was not complete, man being imperfect and weak rendered the Law weak and incomplete. That's why a new agreement, a NEW COVENANT was established between God and man by the Lord with new terms and condition (Jn 15:7) that will enable anyone to love one another as the Lord have loved us by the Holy Spirit He promised (Jn 14:17,26; Jn 15:26, 16:13 - 15). Besides, a gentile like me can never be part of the Covenant between God and the Israelites/Jews. I can become a gentile Jew but can never be part of God's purpose for the Israelites/Jews, that was only for them. The New Covenant bridged that gap. Praise God for His love. |
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Dakryn
Tadpole
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 25
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| Posted: Wed Jan 30, 2008 7:03 pm Post subject: |
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I came to a different conclusion from the rich young ruler example. Yahushuah neatly pointed out to the man that he wasn't obeying all of the Torah. In fact he was breaking #1 on a daily basis. His riches was his God, and no it doesn't matter how many good works you do if its all in your own [power] and not through a relationship with your Creator and Savior.
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Perception does not constitute Reality! |
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