Has the Law of Moses been Abolished?

AllSop · Sea Monkey Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Texas

I wonder, is there a verse that points out the Moral Law seperate from the Civil Laws? I think (I haven't been able to find a verse, so perhaps there is) that this seperation was something done by people later, for perhaps study purposes or comprehention? Much like chapters and verses were added so we wouldn't be saying "well half way through the letter to the Romans he writes..." while everyone else is struggling to find where you're reading from.

Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed [if I build up the LAW OF MOSES again], I prove myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.

Eph 2:14-15 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances

In both these passages it is written that the law is "destroyed" and "abolished". In all my readings of the law, it is refered to as just that, not pieces of it.

So that for sure notes that the law has been abolished for believers, so you say well what about unbelievers? It was said that unbelievers are still under the law, and are that way because it is to be a tutor to them to lead them to Christ.
However:

Gal 2:25 But now faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

We are called, believers and unbelievers alike, to come to know Christ, obey his commandments, and to be saved by doing so, would you agree? Again, why would an unbeliever be under any law concerning God? They wouldn't, just as people outside of Israel weren't. But if they ARE to "find God", the law they would be under is Christ's. That is what we will be judged by, that is what we are to follow. God will not judge unbelievers by the old law, and believers by the new law, so to say they are under the old law until they believe seems rather pointless. If they don't believe then they are lost. Am I misunderstanding something? Please forgive me if I am.

Also I would like to note that this doesn't mean we can't learn or gain a better understanding of God and his plan for salvation to all men through Christ by reading the old law, (in essence, the OT) and how it all came to be like it is... it is certainly good for that.

Nobby · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:38 am Post subject: New Covenent1

Amen!
Hi Allsop, very good post! I agree all are under the New Covenent. Beliver & non-believer alike!
Nobby

Zathrus · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 10:47 am Post subject:

Van · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:27 pm Post subject: Historical versus Ongoing

First the Law became a tutor to lead us to Christ. Before that, the Law shut us all up. Now, for those chosen by grace through faith, we no longer need the tutor. So clearly, the Law acts in the present to lead unsaved to Christ.

One, With the New Covenent, the Law of Moses became a tutor. And it stops being a tutor when an unsaved person is saved by grace through faith.

Galatians 3:23: "But before faith came, we were kept in the custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed."

24: "Therefore the Law has become (note the present tense, indicating after the cross) our tutor to Christ, that we may be justified by faith." (Clearly this is aimed at the Galatians about 20 years after the cross, indicating the purpose of the Law now that Christ has come.

25: "But now (NOW!!!!!!) that faith has come (not refering to the historical event of the cross, but to the saved individuals in his audience) we are no longer under a tutor."

26: "For you are all sons of God through faith (again the audience of saved Galatians 20 years after the cross) through faith in Christ Jesus. They did not become sons of God when Christ paid the penality for the unjust on the cross, they became sons of God after they placed their faith in Christ.

The argument that this passage is refering to the historical fact of twenty years earlier is patently false.

Next point, I did not mean to indicate that my opponents arguments we based on the doctrines of men, and mine were not. My views are guided by my understanding of the whole of scripture and this understanding came by direct study and prayer (primary source) and the study of what others have made of the text (the doctrines of men.) If this is seen as defective in some way, so be it.

My point is that our differences are driven by the doctrines we hold, not that my position is holier than thou.

Next point, the idea that not one jot or tittle shall pass away until it has been fulfilled... well when the New Covenent came, it was fulfilled for those of the New Covenent, those saved by grace through faith. And it was changed, not being restricted to the nation of Israel, but because that barrier was brought down, it became a tutor to all men not yet saved.
So the fact of the bogus extrapolation stands.

Next point, did I start this thread so that I could shoot down the heart-felt beliefs of other? Nope. I did not understand why some thought the whole law had been abolished, and I have learned from the very generous posts of gswisher, Allsop and yourself (Zathus) the basis of your beliefs. I tried to indicate that I did not share them and why based on scripture. If this is seen as some sort of mean spirited attempt to ridicule others, I am sorry. That was not my attempt or aim.

AllSop · Sea Monkey Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Texas

How can it be that the "our" and "we" in verse 24 means "everybody"... but the "we" in verse 25 means only those who are saved through Christ now?

The "our" and "we" in v24 seems clear to be JEWS under the law, we in v25 should be Jews also. The Law is no longer the guardian - it has carried Israel to Christ and is now abolished.

There is not a different law for jew-non-believers and non-believers. They will be judged by the same law that Christians are. I don't understand the subtlty of the distinction - why make the distinciton - it doesn't exist - we will all be judged by the words of Christ. What is the purpose for the distinction that different people are under "different" laws? There is only one law in effect - the law of Moses has been abolished.

v23 says "before faith came" - the law of salvation thru faith in Christ, we were kept under the law, kept from faith which would "later be revealed" It was a guardian UNTIL christ came. It is no longer a guardian.

1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

It was written for our benefit and instructions.

2 Tim 3 ALL scripture is inspired by God and is PROFITABLE for teaching, reproof, correction

The OT is still TRUE and thus we benefit from reading it, AND it is the basis for understanding Christ.

The old law wasn't changed, it was abolished.

The NRSV translates this verse:
Gal 3:23 Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed.
Gal 3:24 Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justifed by faith,

To briefly touch on semantics, but not to make a major or key point on it. Tutor is possibly not the best translation - "caretaker" or "custodian" is more of the sense of it - "tutor" implies more than the word here originally does. Let's look it up:

paidago?gos
pahee-dag-o-gos'
From G3816 and a reduplication form of G71; a boy leader, that is, a servant whose office it was to take the children to school; (by implication [figuratively] a tutor [“paedagogue”])

by implication a tutor - but not the tutor. Christ is the tutor.

Gal 3:24 does not say the Old law was to TEACH US ABOUT christ - it says it was to protect us and walk us to school where the teacher would teach us - Christ

No one is under the old law. What WAS changed and not restricted to just Israel was Christ.

Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.

Gal 6:2 Bear one anothers burdens, and in this way you will fulfill the law of Christ.

Van · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:27 pm Post subject:

If the Law has become a tutor, or careprovider, to bring awareness of our sinfulness and our need of a Savior from the wrath of God, could this mean that only those portions of the Law effective for that purpose should be considered to be still in effect? I think of the term Civil Law as that part of the Law which contains those commands, ordinances and regulations governing interactions between people within the nation of Israel. Therefore, I think the Civil Law, which governed the nation of Israel prior to Christ is no longer in effect because it does not demonstrate our sinfulness, nor lead us to Christ. As indicated by others, certainly it is useful for study and instruction, because all scripture is useful, but that is about it. Similarly, the Cerimonial Laws have been set aside by the sacrifice of Christ, and are abolished in the flesh of Jesus.
But the greatest commandment, to love God with all our heart, with all our mind and with all our understanding remains in effect, as does the next greatest - to love our neighbor as ourselves. And many parts of the Law of Moses clothes those ideas with specifics by which we can see we have failed, just as Paul saw, when he considered coveting.

Van · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:42 pm Post subject: Our and we

Galations 3:23 - Before faith came - refers to before Christ died on the cross - we were kept in custody under the Law - refers to Jews who had been given the Law of Moses.

24 - Therefore the Law has become our tutor - refers to after the cross and includes everybody in his audience, both Jews and Gentiles. lead us to Christ - refers to believers, both Jew and Gentile. that we might be justified - refers to believers.

25 - we are no longer under a tutor - refers to believers justified by faith in Christ.

So the question is how did the Gentiles enter into verse 24 when verse 23 seems directed at Jews only? Because of verse 28 - which indicates to me that his audience included all his examples.

AllSop · Sea Monkey Joined: 16 Sep 2003 Posts: 13 Location: Texas

I guess I'm not following... Sad

The "we" in v23 refers to the Jews who had been given the law of Moses as you said. So he says WE were kept in custody, so it has become OUR tutor. I don't see how the audience has changed. The audience continues to be the same in the following verse "WE are no longer under a tutor".
In verse 26 it seems he does expand the audience "For YOU ARE ALL sons of God", and continues with that audience through the end of the chapter.

To look at a simple sentence that has this context, you could say something like "WE are going to carry this because it is OURS". That doesn't add or take away from who you are talking about.

So the "we" and "our", I would conclude, was Paul talking to the Jewish Christians, of which he was. Then the change to "you are all" would include all Christians, Jew and Greek, slave and free, etc.

Van · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 8:44 pm Post subject:

To repeat the reason the we is confined to Jews only in verse 23 is because this is before the cross, and only the Jews are under the law. After the cross, in the here and now that Paul was addressing, the barrier between the Jews and the Gentiles has been torn down, so the audience did not change (both Jews and Gentiles) but the impact of the law before the cross (Jews only) and after the cross (Jews and Gentiles) changed.

I do not think I can make it any more clear.

HeKkLeR · Posted: Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:01 pm Post subject:

Very good subject and posts to all.

If I may:

The Mosaic Laws were for worldy minded men. Jesus Christ the Savior is now the Law in the hearts of believers.

Moses, the man, gave the Laws to the Israelites. Jesus Christ, the Lord, gave His promise of being the Shepherd to all His flock.

For the true believer... or should I say for those that know and trust fully in the Son of God we are always... always... in the guide of the Lord Christ Jesus our savior. Therefore, the Lord Himself puts us in certain situations where, as long as we keep our faith in Him and in His guidance, proclaiming Him and His way, and continue to do everything we do out of love for God and His Son, then how could we be held accountable under manly Laws? What can man do? What can Moses do?

The Laws of God have been promised to those who believe in Christ Jesus to be put in their hearts and minds. Jesus Christ Himself is the Law and the Way of the LORD God. No other law can override the Way of the Lord.

Colossians 2:10 "... and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority."

Faith is the Law that followers of God and the Son of God live their lives by. Faith

Ron · Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:34 am Post subject:

My understanding of the Law-

In Romans 3:19, Paul writes these words:
"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God."

Let's take a look, then, at exactly what it is that the Law says and why it causes every mouth to be silenced and the whole world held accountable before God.

An Anatomy of the Law
The Law, given through Moses, was a divinely instituted code of life by which Israel was governed. It was in three sections:

The Commandments (Read Exodus 20:1-17)
These covered the spiritual and moral code, and were the basis of the whole Law. They can be divided into two main categories. The first four dealt with Israel's relationship and attitude to God. The following six dealt with Israel's relationships and attitudes to one another.

Both Jesus and Paul summed up all Ten Commandments in one word - love (see Mark 12:28-31; Luke 10:25-28; Romans 13:8-10; Galatians 5:14).

The Judgments (Read Exodus 21:1-23,33)
These guided their social life, and were an enlargement of the principle of their relationships and attitudes to one another. As well as being practical expressions of life for Israel, many act as a picture of spiritual life in Christ (note, for example, Deuteronomy 25:4 and 1 Corinthians 9:9; 1 Timothy 5:18 ).

The Ordinances (Read Exodus 25:1-31:18 )
These directed Israel's religious worship. They were detailed expressions of their approach and relationship to God. In God's ultimate purpose these acted as pictures of the sacrificial work of Christ and all it would accomplish.

These three sections of the Law - the commandments, the judgments and the ordinances - make up the legal basis of the Sinai Covenant made between God and Israel.

The Purpose of the Law
What was Paul referring to when he spoke of the Law in Romans 3:19? He was not just speaking of a particular section of the Law, such as the commandments, or the judgments, or the ordinances.

When Paul speaks of the Law, he is referring to the basis of the covenant God made with Israel at Sinai - that is, if they obeyed and fulfilled all the Law's requirements - including the every commandment, every judgment and every ordinance - they would find right standing with God (note Luke 10:25-28; Mark 10:17-23).

Paul's purpose has been to prove that no man has ever kept all the Law, and therefore no man has ever found righteousness through the Law not because there was anything wrong with the Law itself, but because of the basic nature of sin that is within man (Romans 7:7-14).

The Law presented God's standard of righteousness, but imparted no power to fulfil it, in the same way that the law of a nation can set a certain speed limit for driving, but has no power within itself to make a person drive at that speed. It can only convict the law-breaker.

What, then, is Paul's principle declaration concerning the Law of Moses, which is the basis of the Covenant of Sinai? The Law is powerless to give a man righteousness before God!

Let's walk through 3:19-20 and see exactly what Paul says.

"Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who
are under the law..."
- The Law of Moses was only intended to be binding upon those who were principals in the Covenant of Sinai - namely, Israel and God. Although the Law of Moses has become the basis of the Western legal system - and we see in it a practical expression of the holiness of God- the Law is part of a covenant and technically applies only to those under that covenant.

"...so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held
accountable to God"
- In 1:18-32, Paul has shown that the Gentile world has been held accountable before God for the downward spiral into godlessness and wickedness. Now Paul declares that the Law has included the Jew
too in this accountability before God. The Law proves that all men - Jew
and Gentile alike - are in desperate need of God's salvation. Every mouth
has been silenced (from bringing any excuse before God) and the whole
world held accountable before the holiness of God.

"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by ob-
serving the law"
- This is Paul's principal premise and one of the most important things we need to understand if we are to appreciate God's solution. Paul is declaring that it is impossible for any person to be declared righteous through his own self-effort or basic goodness. The same words -"no one" - that he uses in 3:10-18 to describe the utter lostness of man's condition, he now uses in 3:19 to make his conclusion -"...no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law"!

"...rather, through the law we become conscious of sin"
- Now Paul identifies God original purpose in giving the Law at Sinai. The Law does not make a person righteousness, says Paul. Rather, it makes a person aware of the unrighteousness that is already there!

God gave the Law to act as a mirror. When you look into a mirror and see that your face is dirty, you don't pick up the mirror and rub your face with it to try and get it clean. The purpose of the mirror is simply to show you that you need cleaning, but you go to another source - the water - to be made clean. This was the purpose of the Law - to reveal to man his need for cleansing, and to point him to the one who could make him clean - Jesus Christ, the Water of Life.

The Fulfillment of the Law
Now it is important for every Christian to understand how the Law of Moses fits into the Gospel plan. Without this understanding, there will be a tendency to slip back into an Old Covenant mentality and miss out on the full provisions of the New Covenant that was established through the Cross of Christ.

In Matthew 5:17-18, Jesus declared:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

In Romans, Paul shows just how Christ's work on the Cross fulfilled the Covenant of Law. In fact, in Romans 10:4, Paul writes:
"Christ is the end of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes."

The Lord Jesus made a very specific statement. He had not come to abolish the Law, he said, but rather to fulfill it. Let's take a look at these two words and see exactly what took place at the Cross.

Abolish: The Greek word that Jesus used has the meaning of "to destroy, demolish, overthrow, render vain, deprive of success, bring to naught." This is the same word that is used the enemies of the early believers when they said: "For we have heard...that this Jesus of Nazareth will destroy [the Temple] and change the customs Moses handed down to us" (Acts 6:14). It is also the same word that Jesus used then referring to the physical destruction of the Temple, when he said, in Mark 13:2: "Not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down [or abolished/destroyed]." The word "abolish" (NIV) and "destroy" (KJV) refers to a violent and total overthrow of something.

Fulfill: The Greek word that Jesus used has the meaning of "to make full, fill up, fill to the full, consummate, make complete in every particular, render perfect, bring to realization." This word was used in the New Testament to refer to the fulfillment of a prophecy (Matthew 1:22; 13:35) and to the fulfilling of the Law of Moses through godly love (Romans 13:8 ).

The New Testament is absolutely clear that the Law of Moses ended at the Cross (see again Romans 10:4), but the way it ended was not by it being abolished, but by it being fulfilled in the Gospel!

In Romans 8:4, Paul explains the nature of Christ's fulfillment of the Law with these words:
"For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit."

Every aspect of the Law is fulfilled in Christ:

The Commandments
The general commandments of the Sinai Covenant (embodied particularly in the Ten Commandments) are now fulfilled through the enacting of the love of Christ (Galatians 5:14) and the empowering of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:16-25)!

The Judgments
The specific commandments of the Law, dealing with the legalities of life in ancient Israel, are also fulfilled through the simple premise of the Gospel - that we are now called to "walk in the Spirit" (KJV) or "live according to the Spirit" (NIV). While we are, of course, required to
abide by the law of our land (in matters such as speed limits, business dealings and paying of taxes, etc), the motivation of our lives is not in the meticulous observance of legalities but in our desire to live through the power of God's Spirit. If we live in the Spirit, we will abide by the law of the land!

The Ordinances
All the ordinances are fulfilled in Christ's sacrifice upon the Cross of Calvary and in his resurrection (Hebrews 7:26-8:6). All the details of the Old Covenant sacrificial system and religious festivals find their complete fulfillment in the Gospel!

Christ is the mediator of the New Covenant in which God promised to put his Law in our minds and write it on our hearts (Jeremiah 31:33; Hebrews 8:7-13; 2 Corinthians 3:2-11,18 ). In other words, in the New Covenant, Christ imparts the power to fulfill all righteousness!

Van · Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 7:34 am Post subject:

In thinking about this discussion, I am unsure if there is any difference in our positions. If the moral Law of Moses is no longer in effect, but these very same commandments are included in the Law of Christ, then there is no difference in what we should understand as the will of God for our life.

If unbelievers are under the Law of Christ, and this Law is the tutor or careprovider to Christ, and if unbelievers knowingly violate these commandments, then added to the sin of not doing what God's Holiness requires, is the sin of transgression, of not doing what God's Holiness requires "knowingly", then are we dealing with a distinction without a difference?

So the problem may be of not saying 9 of the 10 "Ten Commandments" are still in effect, not under the Law of Moses, but under the Law of Christ, such that the message of the gospel is clouded.

My view based on Paul's passage that the Law of Moses became our tutor is that a portion of the Law of Moses remains in effect. Others say, no, the Law that became our tutor was the Law of Christ, and therefore the Law of Christ applies to unbelievers. I am doubtful of this silent shuffle in mid passage, but if others think it sound, so be it.

I think the problem we are having in gaining a mutual understanding of Galatians 3:23-25 rests on a differing understand of the term faith. In verse 23 I think it refers to Christ. I think this view is shared by everybody. But in verse 25, I think this same term now refers not to Christ and the time of the cross, but to the individual believer's acceptence of Christ. The other view, or so I understand, is that this verse is also talking about the historical event of the cross.

So I think the Law became a tutor after Christ encountered the cross, and the other view is the Law became a tutor before the cross, but has no tutor role of bring upon men an awareness of sinfulness, now that Christ has come.

But where do we see the Nine Commandments posted?

RevJP · Moderator Joined: 18 Apr 2003 Posts: 6840 Location: USA

Let me ask this: Can we, as christians, have salvation, live a Christlike life (sanctified and justified) without the aid of the OT? Could we be christians by living only the NT?

metothezero · Posted: Thu Sep 25, 2003 11:05 am Post subject:

I'm reminded of Paul's words, "All is lawful, but not all is edifying." As a Christian, everything is lawful, our sins have been forgiven and we could theoretically live as heathens and not be eternally punished for those actions. But over and over we are warned of this, we are told that God would take us prematurely if we act this way. When we accept the gift of salvation and become Christians, a new heart is put into us, a new will. We no longer are children of sin, but children of GOD, we want new things like new things, love new things, act in new ways. The reason that we as Christians may keep the commandments of the Old Testament, are not because we are bound by them, as far as eternity is concerned, but that we want to live by the standards GOD has set forth. I would begin to question those who proclaim Christianity and say they are children of God, yet go out and act as heathens, I would question their salvation. We are told faith without works is dead. Not that we are not saved if we do not do the works of God, but that if we do not have the heart and will to do the works of GOd, and by this do them, we probably are not children of God......MY POV, have at it, please