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AllSop
Sea Monkey
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 13
Location: Texas
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 Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:03 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | So the words of Jesus that says depart from me, those that practice lawlessness have no application for unsaved people? Me thinks those that say there is no consequence for lawlessness are teaching unsound doctrine. |
Van, I don't know if you were refering to my post or to Zathrus? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:07 am Post subject: Re: My answer |
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| AllSop wrote: | | Zathrus wrote: | | vsjb34, while I will not say that infidelity, lying, cheating, stealing, etc are healthy things to do, I will say that by New Testament standards, any mistake we may make, no matter how grave, has already been payed for and washed clean by the blood Jesus shed for us. By New Teatament standards, God does not hold our faults and mistakes against us no matter how serious or how frequent they may be. |
So from my understanding of what you're saying, we can do whatever we want, and as long as we consider ourselves saved by the blood of Jesus, we are forgiven? |
It's amazing how consistently Christians will ask this question of anyone who stands up and says "yes, the cross of Christ truly did take away all our sinfulness in God's sight, and because of Jesus there is nothing we can do that would make us guilty before God".
Yes, the grace of God is such that you could do any of the things vsjb34 mentioned and any others you could think of and yet be righteous in God's sight.
Let me ask you this: Have you got your heart set on doing a couple of those things? Is the only thing holding you back the belief that God will punish you, whether in this life of the next? |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:18 am Post subject: |
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I am having difficulty understanding the posts.
Here is an example:
"Still – technically - the Law of Moses was NOT “left in effect” but voided only for those who believed. It was abolished (that is the word used)."
What might this mean? That the Law of Moses was abolished for everybody? What scripture says that? None. Not one. (At least that I am aware of  )
For example, Ephesians 2:13 indicates that the following passage is addressing those "in Christ Jesus" both Jews and Gentiles. Therefore this passage indicates the consequence of lawlessness, the enmity between the unsaved and God, is reconciled through the cross. To say this passage indicates the consequence of breaking the Law of Moses has been abolished for the unsaved is without support.
Another point, when Christ says to keep His commandments, what commandments is He referring to? Just those he spoke while engaged in His public ministry or perhaps those He gave to Moses.
Allsop, my post concerned Zathus' assertion that one's perception of being covered by grace was a license to sin without consequence. That is an unsound doctrine in my opinion. |
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Van
King Kong
Joined: 19 Oct 2002
Posts: 2646
Location: San Clemente, California
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:59 am Post subject: |
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Galations 3:22 says "But the Scripture (the Law of Moses me thinks)has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
I think this shows that the Law of Moses is in effect now, and has still shut up all men now under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
The law is the tutor, or careprovider, or attendant who job is to insure the arrival of awareness in unbelievers that they are dead in their tresspasses and are in need of a savior from the coming wrath of God. |
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vsjb34
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:08 am Post subject: Stop doing it. |
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Where in the New Testament does it say you can keep committing adultery, God doesn't mind? Paul says stop doing these things.
Eph 4:28 -
Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with
his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has
need. |
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gswisher
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:14 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | Galations 3:22 says "But the Scripture (the Law of Moses me thinks)has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe."
I think this shows that the Law of Moses is in effect now, and has still shut up all men now under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.
The law is the tutor, or careprovider, or attendant who job is to insure the arrival of awareness in unbelievers that they are dead in their tresspasses and are in need of a savior from the coming wrath of God. |
Van,
I understand your point, and what you have been trying to say. And in one small sense, I might agree that unbeleivers have to come through a law before they can be led to Christ. But it is not the law of Moses, else there would still be sacrifices and a temple, etc. The concept in scripture, that even breaking one law breaks the whole of the law shows that the mosaic law does not function in part but only as a whole.
As I said earlier, even the victims of the flood were guilty without having the mosaic law. ANd Romans shows us that those who (at the time of Paul's writing) were without the mosaic law, had a moral code on their conscience. This, I beleive is the answer to what law unbeleivers are under. Certainly all people are not versed on the ten commandments. |
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gswisher
Rabid Pit Bull
Joined: 04 Jun 2003
Posts: 421
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:25 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: |
It's amazing how consistently Christians will ask this question of anyone who stands up and says "yes, the cross of Christ truly did take away all our sinfulness in God's sight, and because of Jesus there is nothing we can do that would make us guilty before God".
Yes, the grace of God is such that you could do any of the things vsjb34 mentioned and any others you could think of and yet be righteous in God's sight.
Let me ask you this: Have you got your heart set on doing a couple of those things? Is the only thing holding you back the belief that God will punish you, whether in this life of the next? |
Very true Zathrus. This shows dependence not on a righteousness by faith but a righteousness according to law. People hold themselves under a dead covenant, and for them it is very much still in effect. If we cannot be saved by following the letter of the law, logic follows that we cannot be lost by not obeying it.
WHat is lacking in this conversation is how we are, by the spirit, under a different law. This law is written on our hearts to empower us to do God's will. It is not a letter saying touch not, taste not, it is the spirit testifying within us that we are righteous. And if we ever come to beleive we are righteous as God says, righteous conduct will flow through such faith!
1Jo 3:7 Little children, let no one lead you astray; the one practicing righteousness is righteous, even as that One is righteous.
Heb 8:6 However, Jesus has now obtained a ministry that is as superior to theirs as the covenant he mediates is founded on better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if the first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no need to look for a second one.
Heb 8:8 But God found something wrong with his people when he said, "Look! The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
Heb 8:9 It will not be like the covenant that I made with their ancestors at the time when I took them by the hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt. Because they did not remain loyal to my covenant, I ignored them, declares the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people. |
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AllSop
Sea Monkey
Joined: 16 Sep 2003
Posts: 13
Location: Texas
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:35 am Post subject: |
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Eph 2:14-15 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
The law was abolished, and was no longer a means to justify yourself before God. Not to a believer or non-believer.
Gal 2:16 yet knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, even we [we = “we Jews!”] believed on Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ, and not by the works of the law: because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:18 For if I build up again those things which I destroyed [if I build up the LAW OF MOSES again], I prove myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19 For I through the law died unto the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:21 I do not make void the grace of God: for if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nought.
Also in Galations:
Gal 2:23 But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed.
Gal 2:24 Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
Gal 2:25 But now faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
Christ does indeed say to keep his commandments...
Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
Christ commandments, as I understand, were things such as:
Joh 15:12 This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you.
Mat 5:27 You have heard that it was said, 'you shall not commit adultery';
Mat 5:28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already commited adultery with her in his heart.
Those are two off the top of my head. Also another question, would a non-believer be bound or "under" any law at all? If they don't believe, why would they think to be under any kind of law or obligation to the law? |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:36 am Post subject: |
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| Van wrote: | | Galations 3:22 says "But the Scripture (the Law of Moses me thinks)has shut up all men under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe." |
Paul went on to write
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:
4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.
Van, I believe this shows the process you were referring to is historical and applied to humanity as a whole, not to each of us as individuals regardless of when we live.
The old testament, from Moses to Christ, was the time in which humanity was under the schoolmaster of the law, shut up under sin. When Christ came, the time appointed for humanity to be under the tutelege of the law was soon to be over. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:43 am Post subject: |
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| gswisher wrote: | | WHat is lacking in this conversation is how we are, by the spirit, under a different law. This law is written on our hearts to empower us to do God's will. It is not a letter saying touch not, taste not, it is the spirit testifying within us that we are righteous. And if we ever come to beleive we are righteous as God says, righteous conduct will flow through such faith! |
I agree. It is amazing the transformation that takes place in the nature of a human being when the Spirit of God dwells in him/her and reveals the truth that he/she is a child of God through what Jesus did and not through his/her own works. |
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vsjb34
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:46 am Post subject: Grace is not an excuse. |
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1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Do you not know that the
unrighteous will not inherit
the kingdom of God? Do not
be deceived. Neither
fornicators, nor idolaters,
nor adulterers, nor
homosexuals, F14 nor
sodomites, 10 nor thieves,
nor covetous, nor drunkards,
nor revilers, nor extortioners
will inherit the kingdom of
God. 11 And such were some
of you. But you were washed,
but you were sanctified, but
you were justified in the name
of the Lord Jesus and by the
Spirit of our God.
This shows that people outside of Christ will be judged by these commandments and that continuing in these things is a sin and every time you do these things you are sinning. Yes your sins are forgiven but grace is not an excuse to sin as Paul points out in Romans 6. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Stop doing it. |
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| vsjb34 wrote: | Where in the New Testament does it say you can keep committing adultery, God doesn't mind? Paul says stop doing these things.
Eph 4:28 -
Let him who stole steal no longer, but rather let him labor, working with
his hands what is good, that he may have something to give him who has
need. |
No one is suggesting that doing the things you listed is a good idea. But the new testament is clear that righteousness is a free gift, not earned or maintained by works.
Where in the new testament does it say that adherence to written rules of conduct determines whether one receives reward or punishment from God?
Where in the new testament does it say that having received righteousness apart from our works, we may now lose it by our works?
Would that not run directly counter to the principle behind the cross?
Perhaps the cross was God's mechanism of bringing mankind completely out of any sort of reward/punishment based means of relating to Him. Perhaps that's part of what Paul meant by referring to us as growing up from little children to mature sons. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:05 pm Post subject: Re: Grace is not an excuse. |
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| vsjb34 wrote: | 1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And such were some
of you. But you were washed,
but you were sanctified, but
you were justified in the name
of the Lord Jesus and by the
Spirit of our God. |
This shows that the things Paul listed are not true of believers, even thought there were some, as there always have been, who have fallen into some of these behaviors. I think all of us should be most thankful for this, because there isn't a one of us who has never done something which would have broken one of the commandments, had they still been in place, since coming to Christ. Thank God!! 
A believer might have an affair, or lie, or cheat on his/her taxes, but he/she is still washed, sanctified, and justified and is NOT a sinner.
Also, I do not deny that there were those who were judged based on the law. But that judgement occured before the law passed away. And while that subject touches on what we're discussing, it may be better to discuss eschatology in the Revelation forum. |
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vsjb34
Fierce Poodle
Joined: 04 Aug 2003
Posts: 281
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:08 pm Post subject: Sanctification. |
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I am NOT talking about salvation I am talking about sanctification.
Why would Paul have to write any exhortations if you just received Christ and then lived however you wanted. That is Antinominianism. I am saying obedience is for our sanctification. We have to DO things in the Christian life as James points out. The Christian life does not end when you get saved. That is only a beginning.
We have to understand the commandments in that light. They are in the New and Old Testaments. The Bible is a whole.
The commandments matter. It is a matter of obedience and sanctification NOT salvation. We are saved by Christ's atonement alone. Yes, I agree. |
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Zathrus
King Kong
Joined: 28 Aug 2002
Posts: 2168
Location: WI USA
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| Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:16 pm Post subject: Antinomianism |
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I have heard antinomianism defined as living one's life based on inward principles rather than outwardly imposed rules of conduct.
By this definition, I think that's quite close to what the new testament, including James, teaches. |
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