My understanding of some Bible issues...

HeKkLeR

Here are just 2 issues for now. Please feel free to dispute, correct and/or make suggestions...

7 Days
The Bible does not state that God literally created the earth in 7 days... which is a stumbling block for many in regard to religion. It is not worded "On the first day..." and "On the second day..." for a very good reason.

What the Bible actually does state, is that there were 7 full days between the completion of the accomplishments of God's commandments in the creation of the earth.

God's first commandment in the creation of the earth was "Let there be light," (Gen 1:3-5). Once this was accomplished, God named the light "day" and the darkness "night". Scripture does not say that the passing of 1 'day' and of 1 'night' was the time-frame of each accomplishment, but that after each accomplishment was the passing of an evening and a morning.

Women and the Bible

Genesis 3:16 "To the woman God said... 'Your desire will be for your husband, and he will rule over you."

I feel that this passage is very very important in, and of, itself. In understanding this passage, you can understand many of the issues of women today, and in the past.

You see, I believe that God making this statement to Eve (especially as a punishment) means several things:

1) That in being created '2nd', and from the body of man, that women will always be destined to have a feeling of inferiority towards men, and so will always have to weigh between a constant battle (of sorts) to remove that inferiority complex by prooving that they are not inferior to men, or to conceed to the feeling of inferiority grudgingly... or even willingly.

2) That in Eve being the one to first be deceived, and the first to deceive man, due to the desire of acheiving glory not granted her by God... that women will forever be trapped into a battle of wits with men. Women will always feel that they must prove that they are smarter than men, to acheive a glory greater than man's... or submit to the attitude of men that women are not smarter.

3) That women will always have the desire of 'what belongs to men'. Ergo: Emancipation.

4) That women will detest the idea that God grants freedom to man, but man grants freedom to the woman. The Bible states that the woman belongs to the man... physically and mentally. That man will rule over the woman. The Bible does not say that women are literally inferior to men, just that men will rule over the woman.

But man has the authority to free the woman from this mental and physical slavery to men that was the punishment to women from God. Abraham did this for his wife Sarah, out of his love and desire for her to live a pleasant and comfortable life... regardless of his right of total ownership of her... and it was accredited to him as righteousness in the eyes of God. (Gen 12:10-20 & 20:1-18)

5) A righteous woman's thoughts may wonder and stray about another man, but always come to rest on their man. A righteous man's thoughts may wonder and stray about another woman, but he may come to rest on another woman. (Gen 16:4, 29:18... and many many more).

karaite · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 5:35 am Post subject:

You have made some controversial observations, especially with that of Women's inferiority complex.

I have no real objection to your conclusions, because they are well supported. In fact, just a couple months ago, I had a quick chat with someone about it, and man it was terrible. This girl told me that a lady, who is a charismatic, had said that women could not be bishops, because somewhere in the Bible it said that Bishops should have only one wife--therefore, a bishop could only be a man, because women and women cannot marry. I was shocked to hear such conclusion, coming from a person who believes that when the Bible says that "a woman should not excersice authority over a congregation", that this is but merely a cultural thing, and not a divinely inspired commandment from God.

I immediately referred the girl to the passage that spoke about the bishops having one wife, and the passage that talked about women not excercising authority over a congregation. She was not upset when she read the part of the bishop, because it did not even mention women. But when she read that Paul said that "he will not suffer a woman to have authority", she went kabuzz!

I asked what was wrong, and she started saying how women are humans too, that women have rights, that women are as smart as men, that women this, and women that....

I ask her to stop and read the Scripture and tell me where did Paul say that women were not smart, or humans, or anything of what she had claimed. She would not listen to a thing I said.

It was ugly!

Now, that was the part of the woman....

Going back to your post...I do not agree with your part about Creation. Maybe we could do a discussion on this later, but for now I will only have to say that in this case, a little play of words won't change it.

Van · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 12:20 pm Post subject:

Moses says in Exodus 20:11 that the Lord made the heavens and the earth and all that is in them in six days, then rested on the seventh day.
Now I do not know how long the days were, but the idea that God rested on the seventh day seems to suggest creation took six creation days.

I do not think the curse of Genesis 3:16 is well understood. First what is a curse? God saying the way things will be? So what is a curse to the sinner can be a blessing to one who loves God.

God said the women's pain in childbirth would be increased. Yet, rather than avoid childbirth, women will desire men and they will rule over them.
This might mean several things - wanting men but not wanting the pain they bring could be one of them. This might lead in turn to battling for dominance, control of reproductive rights for example. The pagan view of proper behavior is that if either partner within a marriage does not want to engage in sex, then both should agree to not have sex. The Biblical view, counter to the curse, says that either partner within a Christian marriage wants to have sex, have sex, do not withhold it. Sex becomes a blessing rather than a curse.

HeKkLeR · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 1:07 pm Post subject:

Thanks for the replies.

Yes, it can get very ugly when it comes to discussing the Bible and women... especially when the discussion is between a man and a woman. Shocked

The time of the earth's creation popped into my mind one day, and just sat there and marinated until today when I decided to post about it. I'm not hardlined on the understanding that I get from scripture, but it is interesting how it is worded in the Bible.

Ron · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 5:12 am Post subject:

I had posted this somewhere els but I will repeat it here.

The Bible uses the word "day" 1340 times in the Old Testament and always refers to a 24 hour period of time. Why then does the question of this time arise at Genesis? Can our omnipotent, omniscient God create the universe in 6 days? He could do it in less than a blink of our eye! He decided to create it on His time frame of 6 days and rest on the seventh. Probably one of the first type and shadow lessons in the bible!

Van · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:05 am Post subject: Type and Shadow lesson

Ron, I do not think Type and Shadow illustrations, where something is presented in the OT and that has an apparent application in the OT, is used as something or someone that in some manner foreshadows something or someone in the new Testament. For example, Adam was a "type" for Christ, and so was Moses.

But the first one is the illustration of creation taking a week, with God creating or designating a "day" of rest. Now the OT application is a 24 hour day, the Sabbath. What does this foreshadow according to Hebrews 4?

Questions to ponder:

Is focusing on the duration of the six days, focusing on the shadow and not the substance?

Is the "day" of rest the shadow of our rest in Christ, when we turn from works and rest in faith?

Who is the Lord of the Sabbath?

HeKkLeR · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 8:33 am Post subject:

Thank you Van for this question:

larryjf · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:13 am Post subject:

The 6 days of creation with the 7th day of rest may by pointing to the entirety of creation. In other words, maybe there is something in this 6 and 7 that has to do with the full completion of the ages.

Maybe there will by 6,000 years of man ruling the earth until the 7,000th year of Messiah's reign - which will last for 1,000 years.

By the way, there is no reason not to think the earth was created in 6 actual days. Everything God created (like Adam) was created with age. So saying that the earth is ## years old doesn't really prove anything, because we don't know at what age it was created.

Just something to think about.

HeKkLeR · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:19 am Post subject:

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

The story of creation in Genesis is not a scientific discourse on how God created, but it is simply God telling us that He alone created everything and He and He alone is our God. In a time when people were worshipping more then one God, this book introduces them to the One God who created.
Women have suffered much because of the story of Eve in the Garden. Over the many thousands of years since women have not held anything but a subserviant position in society. Today women have won a place other then that of her ancesters and I guess to men perhaps this is fearful maybe, I don't know why they would want women to continue as non-entities.

larryjf · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 1:02 pm Post subject:

If Eve has caused many women to suffer, surely Mary has caused many to be 'redeemed' (for lack of a better word). We see in the NT that it was a woman, not a man that brought our Lord into this world through the Holy Spirit. Also looking at women being the first to see the risen Lord.

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

That's true, but remember in that day 2000 years ago Mary didn't have many choices. She was a young girl perhaps 15 years old and she was betrothed (given) to Joseph. Had God not intervened and told Joseph about Mary, she could have been stoned to death for becoming pregnant before she was married. God chose Mary for her goodness and obedience. She was also from the right lineage.

larryjf · Posted: Wed Aug 27, 2003 6:22 pm Post subject:

It was Jesus who brought equality to women. Paul says that there is neither male nor female, but all are one in Christ.

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

Bridget · Rattlesnake Joined: 29 Jun 2003 Posts: 443

If Paul stated that women be quiet in temple and learn from their husbands, this is what the Jews believe both then and now. I believe what Larry was referring to is that Jesus had female followers as well as male. I also believe Jesus was the beginning of women's lib, but they had a long way to go then as now.