Will only 144,000 people go to heaven?

Ron

No. The book of Revelation tells us that a great multitude of people will be saved and go to heaven.

Jehovah's Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. They teach this based upon a literal interpretation of Revelation 7:4; 14:1, 3.

The book of Revelation was written in symbolic language - i.e., signs (Rev. 12:1, 3; 15:1). To determine whether 144,000 is literal or symbolic, we must compare it with the context of Revelation.

In Revelation chapter 7, we immediately learn that the number 144,000 is not a literal number but a symbolic number. In Revelation 7:9-10, 14, John tells us that there will be a great multitude in heaven, saved by being washed in the blood Jesus. Therefore, the 144,000 is not a literal number of people.

The number, 144,000 denotes God's people, spiritual Israel (i.e., Christians, the church) (Rom. 2:28- 29; Col. 2:11-13; Gal. 3:24-29; Heb. 10:1-25). It is composed of:

12: a religious number symbolizing a religious idea or concept (e.g., 12 patriarchs, 12 tribes, 12 apostles) which represents God's people.
12,000: which combines the symbolism of the number 12 and the number 1,000.
12 denotes God's people.
1,000 denotes completeness, fullness.
12,000 denotes the complete fullness of God's people.
In the Revelation, we also see the 144,000 standing with Christ on Mt. Zion (Rev. 14:1). Mt. Zion is the church (Heb. 12:22-29); therefore, the number 144,000 represent all Christians who will live with God in heaven.

God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Pet. 3:9) - not just 144,000. Everyone who obeys Jesus will be saved (Heb. 5:9).

Any thoughts on this?
_________________
"He that hath ears to hear, let him hear." Matthew 11:15

Yours in Christ with much love,
Ron

http://www.arkwebshost.com/theology/ron

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862

HeKkLeR · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 4:53 am Post subject:

Ron · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 6:37 am Post subject:

Ron

HeKkLeR · Posted: Sun Aug 24, 2003 8:12 am Post subject:

Ron, thanks for the reply. Smile

I know those scriptures well. Although I can understand how it could be interpreted by some to support men going to heaven, I am not convinced.

Here's why:

Its says only that this multitude of people were seen standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. It does not say that they were seen in heaven. This multitude of people are the ones described as being "before the throne of God and serve him day and night in His temple..." Rev 7:15, whereas Rev 22:22 states "I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple."

Revelations 21:1-4 describes the "New Jerusalem" (where we will live together with the Lord God Almighty and He will Lord over us).

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband."

This passage shows that we will not be living in heaven, but in what God has provided for us that comes from heaven.

Rev 21:9-11 again states "One of the angels... came and said to me, 'Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.' And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God. It shone with the glory of God, and its brilliance was like that of a very precious jewel, like a jasper, clear as a crystal."

This passage also does more than suggest that what is prepared for God's elect will continue to be on earth for the men that will reap the reward.

larryjf · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 10:26 am Post subject:

I have always believed the 144,000 to be believing Jews that were left on earth after a great martyrdom of all other christians. This is why before the 144,000 are listed there is a scene in Heaven with the martyrs under the altar.

Van · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 2:33 pm Post subject:

Very interesting discussion concerning going to heaven. Thanks.

I have a few questions. Where is heaven? I think the first heaven is the atmosphere of earth, where the birds fly. Gen 1:20. I think the second heaven is where the stars are, the whole of the physical universe. And I think the third heaven, also called paradise, is where God is. If God is in the New Jerusalum, then the New Jerusalum is heaven.

Jesus said no one has gone to heaven but the one who came from heaven.
This could be true only for those that died before God reconciled himself by the cross. After that, believes in Christ could go to heaven. Note that Jesus said to the thief on the cross, today you will be with me in paradise or the third heaven. Paul went to the third heaven or a man he knew went to heaven, but in any event someone visited paradise. Now this was after the cross.

And it should be noted that others purportedly taken up to heaven might have only gone up into the atmosphere in a whirlwind and then transformed and comforted in a compartment of Hades called Abraham's bosum.

And finally, as Larryjp pointed out, just where were the people under the altar located, if the altar was not in heaven.

larryjf · Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2003 6:32 pm Post subject:

Add to that the idea that Jesus said "The kingdom of Heaven is within you".

ELI · Alley Cat Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 181

[quote]

[b]Ron

Van · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 12:36 pm Post subject:

Eli, just to clarify one point. The fact that no one before the time of the cross went to heaven, to paradise, to be with God, does not mean that they were annilated or cast into hell. As you said, God is God of the living, therefore all the OT saints, those set aside due to their faith in God, were put into a plush prison, Abraham's bosum, or a place of honor but still separated from God, because no one before the cross had been reconciled. I believe, as you apparently do, that Jesus, with the keys of Hades, freed the captives and led them like captives in from of the army of God, the church, into paradise during the period between His death and resurrection. Therefore I think we are in agreement on this point.

One other point, where I think we are in disagreement, is your contention that our human souls, our spiritual essense, our spirit, existed before physical conception. I do not think there is any support for that concept in scripture. God makes us in the womb.

Ron

[quote="ELI"]

ELI · Alley Cat Joined: 03 Sep 2003 Posts: 181

[quote]

Ron · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Jacob have I loved

[quote="ELI"]

Van · Posted: Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:36 pm Post subject:

ELI, I am sorry if you think I was being dishonest and unfair. I said I did not think there was any support for the concept that our human souls existed before conception.

Since I seem to erroneously inferred that was your position, I again say I am sorry. Since you now have made your position clear that you do not believe that our human souls were created before conception, then we have nothing to dispute.

I have no idea what point you were trying to make with your references to Eph 3:9, Rev 4:11. If the assertion that the term God created all things means he had to have created all the souls but not the bodies procreated, the argument is without merit in my opinion.

There are plenty of verses that clearly demonstrate that God was involved with some humans before they were born, while in the womb. That is not the question. The question is did God know some individuals before they were conceived, i.e. knew their pre-existing soul, and to repeat, I do not think there is any support for that in scripture.

Since God is the "Father of spirits" the Bible suggests He forms our human spirit in us while in the womb. When a saved person dies, our spirit returns to the Father. Therefore "return" only shows return to the creator, and not return to a postulated existence prior to conception.

You said there were plenty of places where scripture says humans knew God before being born, but that has nothing to do with the idea that there is anyplace in scripture where humans knew God before being conceived.

Knowing something will happen in the future does not mean the individuals exist in the present. Whatever God purposes to accomplish will be accomplished. So if God says some future King by name will burn alters 300 years before the King fulfills the prophecy, it does not require that the King's soul existed when the prophecy was made.

Jer. 1:5 refers to before the baby was fully formed rather than before conception.

Romans 8:29 says God knew beforehand, before the time that Paul wrote Romans, that all those in Christ, whoever they would turn out to be, would be predistined by being placed in Christ to be conformed to the image of His Son. None of this requires or even suggests the existences of individual souls before conception.

Ephesians 1:4 says God chose us in Him before the foundation of the world. God chose Christ, the pre-incarnate Word, before the foundation of the world, and He formulated His plan of redemption which included the feature that all those placed in Him, would be the chosen brethren, because they are in Christ. So this group selection, all those who are placed in Christ, whoever they turn out to be, was made before the foundation of the world, but no individuals were selected. You will note that scripture never says God chose me before the foundation of the world, but always refers to a group, (us) in Him, rather than being chosen individually, such as we do find during the period of the New Testament writings.

Now I know you may accept the false doctrine of Calvinism or Arminianism, but even using their bogus doctrine, they refer to foreseen individuals, not existent individuals (souls) as far as I know. Either way, there is no support, in my opinion, for the concept of pre-existing souls.

1 Peter 1:2 again refers to what God knew beforehand, before the time that Peter wrote his letter, and what he knew was that the elect would be chosen according to the plan of placing believers into the body of Christ. This does not require nor suggest individual selection of pre-existing souls.

Rom 9:13 is another reference to choosing some individuals while in the womb, but not prior to conception.

In summary, you have supported the idea of pre-existing souls from scripture with passages that I do not think support the idea at all, and others only by inference which I think is invalid.

In closing, I want to repeat, I am not sure whether or not you believe in pre-existing souls, prior to conception based on your charge that I mistakenly inferred that into your post (whatever "that" was Wink

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