Saved by Grace through Faith

Van · Last edited by Van on Thu Aug 21, 2003 9:15 am; edited 1 time in total

Most Christians think they were saved by grace through faith. But this is not true. Paul was wrong. We were saved by caprice through election.

Before the foundation of the world, before God created mankind, before anyone had sinned, God foresaw all of mankind as specific individuals and chose some to be vessels of mercy and some to be vessels of wrath.

He then controlled everything, every electron, every thought sort of like the concept in the sci-fi flick the matrix, such that life is a grand illusion.
Those that think they placed their faith in Christ are deluded. God gave them the thought, just stuck it in there. Jesus smiles and says whoever believes shall not perish, but secretly means whoever God chose before the foundation of the world shall not perish. All the rest of you, I am going to give you the impression that God loves you even though it is a done deal He has already made certain you will go to Hell.

Behold the Gospel of Calvin that leads astray into darkness the children of God.

Ron · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 1:40 pm Post subject:

I may not have put it so boldly, but I agree 100% with the concept of your post.

MoJo · Posted: Sun Aug 17, 2003 7:08 pm Post subject:

How about this; Since time must certainly have a different meaning to God, He is really not looking into the future but the past and all of this is already a done deal in a different dimension. Wink

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van,

Do you not realize that both grace and faith are gifts from God?

Van · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:13 am Post subject:

How does God give the gifts, by magic mind manipulation? Show me the scripture! Or when does God give the gift of faith? Before someone accepts the gospel as an aid in acceptence, or after as an aid to Christian living. Show me the scripture. Calvinism is a false doctine.

Van · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 10:25 am Post subject:

Mojo, do you have a scripture in mind for the idea that unconditional election of specific individuals occurred in the past, thus intoducing the problem of foreseeing individuals from outside of time. That was my position too, until I ran into Larryjp and could not make the case scripturally. Now I did not buy his arguments either, but I was convinced my "outside of time" effort to prop up Calvinism was a dud.

Remember this: God chose us while we were yet sinners, not before we were sinners. To say that God chose us before the foundation of the world as individuals does not allow the "outside of time, or time means something else to God" dodge. Clearly before the foundation of the world refers to some time, repeat time, in the past, before I was born and thus before I was a sinner. It is inescapble, Calvinism is a false doctrine.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

It's more in depth than I have time for now. But here are some passages that come to mind.

(LITV) And hearing these things, they kept silent and glorified God, saying, Then God also has granted to the nations repentance unto life.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you are saved, through faith, and this [faith is] not of yourselves; it is the gift of God;

As a corrupt individual, I could not believe in that which I was dead to. A dead man can do nothing. God grants faith which (as most gifts do) then becomes my posession. Also, concerning free will, we are not free to choose Christ when we are dead, and slaves to corruption.

Mat 16:17 And answering, Jesus said to him, Blessed are you, Simon, son of Jonah, for flesh and blood did not reveal it to you, but My Father in Heaven.

Van · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 12:16 pm Post subject:

As usual, nothing has been offered. I ask for evidence that God grants salvation by magic mind manipulation, and you offer evidence that God grants salvation. That was not the question. So an irrelevant reference.

Next scripture is twisted. Grace is the gift of God in view, not faith in Ephesians 2:8-9. Read your own bible. Here is how the NASB puts it:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves it is the gift of God, and not as a result of works, that no one should boast.

So salvation is not the gift in view in this passage, because the idea is that salvation comes as a result of a gift from God, grace through faith, and not the result of works. There is no question that God grants salvation, and we do not earn it by works. Salvation is granted by the gift of grace, of accepting the sacrifice of Jesus and passing over the sins we have committed. And God does this after accepting our heartfelt faith in Christ.

Next we have a verse indicating God revealed a truth to Peter and that he did not learn it from men. So the argument is since God can speak to men and inspire them and guide them, that means he controls the thoughts of all men. So a verse intended to show an exception, Peter got this from God and not from men, is turned on its head to assert this means everybody gets everything all the time from God. No sale!

An underlying tatic of the salesmen of Calvinism to to show that God could do something, and then assert without support that God does it. For example, God could have given me the correct understanding of scripture pertaining to this issue. But does that truth prove that he did? Wink

Ron · Posted: Mon Aug 18, 2003 6:50 pm Post subject:

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

vsjb34 · Fierce Poodle Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 281

Ron and Van,

You are both upset. Don't be. People have been arguing about this for centuries. Many great minds have gone before us and believed this Doctrine of Election:

Augustine, Martin Luther, John Calvin, Charles Spurgeon, George Whitefield, John Wesley and Martyn Lloyd-Jones.

In our day:

John Piper, John MacArthur and a host of others.

These are not stupid people. This is not the Matrix this is God....Don't forget that.

Van · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:17 pm Post subject:

Lets take them one at a time.

It was asserted that the gift of grace did not make sense. However, if you look at Ephesians 3:7, it specifically says "...according to the gift of God's grace which was given to me... Therefore the argument that the gift of faith makes more sense than the gift of grace fails. God justifies us by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus, and passing over our sins, thus this gift of grace also gives us righteousness - a relationship with God in Christ.

So the score - Calvinist's say God does not give the gift of grace, the Word says God gives the gift of grace. Score one for the Word.

Next point - the Bible teaches that God can influence our minds. True. But does this capacity indicate that God does this all the time or when we consider the Gospel? Nope.

So the score remains the same - the point did not support nor mitigate against the doctrine of Calvinism.

Next point - Acts 16:14 says God opened Lydia's heart. True. But how did God open her heart? What does the text teach. Magic mind manipulation? Nope. She worshipped God and if you believe in and worship God your heart will be open to the gospel of Christ.

So the score remains even - the inferrence of mind manipulation is not suggested by the text, rather that God drew Lydia to the gospel by the power of His word.

Next point - Romans 11:6-11 God harden hearts to create an opportunity for the gospel to go the the gentiles. What does this say, God can harden or influence minds. Yes. Does this say he does this to all minds? Nope. So an example of limited intervention to bring God's predestined plan of redemption to fruition. And the Bible is full of similar examples. But where the Calvinist go wrong is they extrapolate this limited intervention and say it applies to everybody all the time. But there is no scripture support for the contention. None.

Now lets turn this passage around and look at it without bias. Why did God need to harden the hearts? If God controls everything, why pull out this action? Answer, the idea that God controls everything all the time is bogus. God intervenes to cause his foretold and predestined plan to take place. Thus the passage suggests choice and limited intervention.

So the score - No points for Calvinism, two points for the Word of God.

Proverbs 21:1 again shows that God can influence the heart, but does not prove that God does influence the heart all the time. And note that this verse too also supports the idea on intervention, the water was going this way, and now God intervenes and turns it that way.

So the score - since this is the same point as passage in Romans 11, the score says the same, No points for Calvinism, two point for the Word of God.

Calvinism is a false doctrine and cannot be supported biblically.

It is based on a false premise concerning the meaning of foreknowledge and is supported by constructs of extrapolation which run contrary to the context of the passages of scripture, like Lydia. The Word says she worshiped God and had learned from the Word(was faithful to the Lord), and therefore the straightforward understanding of the text is clear - God opened her heart by the Word of God. Same as now.

Van · Posted: Tue Aug 19, 2003 12:40 pm Post subject:

Great minds have accepted Calvinism. This is true. But that does not prove the doctrine scripturally. I have tested the doctrine against scripture and find it a false doctrine. Maybe I am wrong, I will respond to any scriptural support and I did in the above post.

One other item - it is the doctrine of Calvinsim (TULIP) that is false, the Biblical doctrine of Election is true.

vsjb34 · Fierce Poodle Joined: 04 Aug 2003 Posts: 281

I disagree with your contention that Calvinism teaches that God does not give the gift of grace.

Calvinism contends that God gives everything. WE bring nothing to the equation. Salvation is all on God's side.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Good point with the gift of grace. Need to look at that further. Otherwise I think you overlook many things. If God hardened some individuals--denying them an opportunity to come to Christ, where does that leave free will for those individuals? The concept that God chooses who and when has much more support than the beleif that we of our own volition come to Christ. Surely God draws (drags) people to Christ as he so chooses--and this applies to all. It is granted them to respond.

Also, I would like topoint out that I never supported the idea that God subverted our mind set. I say that we are in an original state of corruptness (that is the mind control) so that we cannot respond until we hear,for the first time as spiritual babes the voice of our father. This is where we receive our right mind which can make a right choice. Before that we are unable to respond. Paul says it is not with words (by reason) that we respond but with power.

I do not agree with Calvinists that God has "unchosen" billions for his grace, which is why it is not hard for me to accept that God chooses whom and when he will. Everyone goes in theri own order:

1Co 15:22 for as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Co 15:23 But each in his own order:

Joh 5:28 Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming in which all those in the tombs will hear His voice.
Joh 5:29 And they will come out, the ones having done good into a resurrection of life; and the ones having practiced evil into a resurrection of judgment.