Saved by Grace through Faith

Van · Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2003 2:23 pm Post subject:

I am not sure which verses I have not addressed so here is a restatement.

Ephesians 2:8-9 says we are saved by grace through faith. The gift is grace, not faith.

Faith is the vehicle to grace, if you do not believe, God will not save you.
The concept of "total grace" is a fiction, a definitional argument not found in scripture.

Ephesisans 2:5 - dead in our sins - I addressed that in a prior post.

Here it is again: "Lets take the ol dead means cannot bring oneselve to life argument. Never mind I have posted that we do not bring ourselves to life and thus your argument is not with me but with some imaginary opponent. We are born, even conceived, depraved, corrupted and in a sinful state, separated from God, thus spiritually dead. But we can still think, and even though we are inclined to sin, we can still choose things, this is a good gift for my son for example. One of the better gifts we can choose is to place our faith in God and His Christ. This is what the Bible actually teaches."

Now when God enlivens us by granting us grace and baptizes us into the body of Christ, raising us as a new creature, alive in the Spirit, He has chosen us while we are yet sinners, whoever has placed their faith in His Son.

Acts 3:16 is talking about the gift of healing given to the apostles through faith. Peter said in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene – walk! So the faith in view is the faith of Peter in Christ Jesus, and the power of that faith that comes through Christ in someone who has been saved and indwelt. Thus the passage is talking about post conversion faith and is not germane to the topic at all.

Romans 3:26 - Source of faith argument does not indicate the act of faith.

1 Corinthians 16:13 says we are to stand strong in the faith. The faith in view is faith in God, His Word, His Christ and His Gospel. The revelation of God is the information that we believe in, and so God is the source of our faith, but that does not mean God gives us the verb faith by magic mind manipulation. Nope, He sent His Son to die on a cross and then on the third day raised Him from the tomb to draw all men to Christ.

2 Corinthians 13:5 indicates that should test ourselves at communion to see if we are in the faith or whether we are phony. Does Christ dwell in us is the question. Do we bear fruit of the Spirit? This verse has nothing whatsoever to do with God giving us faith before salvation by magic mind manipulation. What is the source of our faith? God’s revelation! Does this demonstrate God gave us this faith by sending His Son and inspiring His prophets and apostles? Yes. See magic mind manipulation anywhere? Nope and you will not.

Galatians 3:23 again illustrates Calvinism is a false doctrine. Since our faith is in Jesus, when Jesus came our “faith” came. Before the cross, we were shut up, blocked from the promise by the Law. But now that Jesus has arose from the dead, and God has accepted His sacrifice, the just for the unjust, the “promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” Note, the gift is given to believers. Again showing that the gift is grace and not pre-salvation faith as a verb by magic mind manipulation. Calvinism is a false doctrine and cannot be supported biblically.

Philippians 3:9 again says our faith (noun) is of Christ which means faith (facts) based on Christ rather than someone else. It is of or in Christ and not of or in someone else.

Colossians 2:12. Here is another typical example of a supposed supporting text for Calvinism. What is asserted is that it is God’s faith given to you before you were saved, that saved you. But what does the verse actually say? “Having been buried with Him in baptism” and when is this before or after being chosen? After. Looking at a literal translation the verse seems to say the “faith” is the power of God and thus refers to God’s power in raising Christ from the dead. If this is the case, then the faith is after being chosen for salvation based on individual faith (belief) not mentioned and refers to the power God uses to raise us in Him just as God raised Him. The other reading is that the faith refers back to our faith in Christ’s resurrection. In either case no support can be found for magic mind manipulation.

James 2:1 Do not hold your faith (noun-facts) in Christ, refers to presenting it (the faith or body of information concerning God and His Christ, the gospel) to everyone and not showing partiality to the rich or those who can sing solos. And for umpteenth time “faith of the Lord of us” does not mean faith given to us by the lord, but instead means faith based on the Lord, faith in or of the Lord and not someone else.

It is our belief, our act of faith (verb) in Christ that God evaluates and accepts just as John 3:16 says. He chooses us, while we are yet sinners and grants salvation by grace through faith.

2 Timothy 2:13 has nothing to do with saving a faithless person. What the verse says is that God keeps his word, even if we do not. If we endure to end He will save us - that is His promise and He will not deny Himself. But if we deny Him, He will deny us and He keeps His word!

Roman 1:17 simply says that righteousness is from faith and nothing else, faith from beginning to end, faith from faith.

The gift of pre-salvation faith is a fiction supported by assertions such as faith of Christ means Christ gave us the faith by magic mind manipulation or in otherwords support for the premise conjured from thin air.

Now I think I have addressed each and every passage and shown that none support the gift of faith (verb).

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van,

Little words like: but, in, of, from, your... these have huge impact. You cannot gloss over them. You make reference to the passage from James inaccurately, as if it says your faith. The faith is OF Jesus, coming from Him, having its source in him--not of you or from you (only in the sense that it was given TO you).

Act 3:15 And the Author of Life you killed, whom God raised up from the dead, of which we are witnesses.
Act 3:16 And on the faith of His name, this one whom you see and know was made firm by His name, and the faith which came through Him gave to him this complete soundness before you all.

Him and his--little important words. You say this verse discusses Peter's faith? Was the faith in Peter's name also? Peter, the one speaking says "HIM", not "me" (refering to himself). The faith refered to is clearly that of Him--Christ. Even a natural, reasoning person should see this.

Van · Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 6:37 am Post subject:

Thanks for all your effort to defend Calvinism, it has been enlightening.

Note ad homenims - I have misrepresented James 2:1 by using the NASB version. The idea is that the faith, the facts and information about Christ, is held by the people James is addressing. The idea is that they should not present these facts in their possession to selected individuals, your faith or the faith which you possess.

gswisher wrote: "You say this verse discusses Peter's faith? Was the faith in Peter's name also? Peter, the one speaking says "HIM", not "me" (referring to himself). The faith referred to is clearly that of Him--Christ. Even a natural, reasoning person should see this."

Now here is what I wrote: Acts 3:16 is talking about the gift of healing given to the apostles through faith. Peter said in the name of Jesus Christ the Nazarene – walk! So the faith in view is the faith of Peter in Christ Jesus, and the power of that faith that comes through Christ in someone who has been saved and indwelt. Thus the passage is talking about post conversion faith and is not germane to the topic at all.

See the problem, gswisher is throwing up smoke, pointing out that the faith we hold, the facts we hold are from God, and then asserting that when we hold them, they are not our faith. Drivel - when the facts are accepted by us, then the faith of Christ is in us, and becomes our faith. This does not mean faith in ourselves, another piece of drivel, but faith in Christ held by us.

But such is the defense of Calvinism - full of ad homenims and no sound understanding of the text. My point with Acts 3:16 is it was talking about post conversion faith, a gift of the holy spirit and this is what gswisher tried to cover up.

Philippians 3:9 - gswisher again muddies the waters with the assertion that faith, which we accept, cannot be referred to as our faith. Untrue!

Lets go back over faith one more time. Faith can be the facts, as is the body of information Christians believe in. Faith can be the act of accepting the facts as truths - to put faith to Christ. And finally, after one has accepted and trusted in the facts, placed their faith in God and His Christ, the faith becomes their assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Note also how gswishers remarks repeatedly allude to my lack of spiritual discernment, I am a natural man. So again, while throwing up a smokescreen of bogus biblical understanding, he is hinting that I may be unsaved. Talk about how Calvinist use ad homenims to defend their false doctrine.

Did you get a kick of gswisher attacking me for using "your faith" in James 2:1 per the NASB, and gswisher using "your faith" in 1 Corinthians 2:5. So it seems I am right, you can refer to the faith in you as your faith.

gswisher wrote: "According to your method, the only difference between you and an unsaved individual is your ability to think and choose wisely. Therefore God's grace is not the deciding factor, because the grace is there for both of you."

Yes, I admit it, God's grace is there for everyone who hears and believes.
But my faith is not based on my ability or reasoning power, but on the word of God, which I accepted. Here again we see the effort to make faith equal with works, when Paul teaches salvation is by grace through faith and not works. Calvinist try to turn acceptance of the gospel, trusting in God as a work. Calvinism is a false doctrine and cannot be supported biblically.

Next gswisher repeats the fiction that we are unable rather than unwilling to come to Jesus. The Bible says we are unwilling, indicating choice, and the false doctrine of Calvinism says we are unable because we are lost.
The Bible teaches we, the believers, are to find the lost and present the gospel to them so that some might be saved.

Final point , gswisher wrote: "A dead man cannot generate saving faith."
Now the question you have got to ask is, who said a dead man can generate saving faith? Nobody. Who saves us? God. Who chooses us while we are yet sinners? God. Who enlivens us? God. Who revealed Himself to us through Christ and His Word? God. Who told us that whoever believes in His Son shall not perish but have life eternal? God

Accepting the gift of God is not a work. The assertion is a false doctrine of man, making the word of God to no effect. Jesus taught we are to accept the word and explained the problems of accepting the word in the parable of the Sower.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van · Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 9:06 am Post subject:

gswishers last post, hopefully an attempt at humor, is a misrepresentation by implication. More smoke. I have made the case, Calvinism is a false doctrine that cannot be supported biblically.

Instead we get manmade doctrines such as total depravity, total grace, our acceptance of the gospel is a work and so on and so forth. None of it can be supported biblically.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

I quoted you directly. (BTW why do you address me in the third person? I'm right here.)
_________________
The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van · Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:01 am Post subject:

gswisher wrote: "I quoted you directly" again implying that I said gswisher had misquoted me. Of course I said no such thing. So yet another misrepresentation by implication.
Calvinism is a false doctrine and cannot be supported biblically.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van,

I can only chuckle at how seriously you take things. You're practically arguing with yourself now. Please enjoy your weekend. Really.
_________________
The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

Van · Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:45 pm Post subject:

Another dismissive post, pointing to me as defective. Such is the defense of Calvinism. I count it all joy.

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Boo!

(Van: gswisher wrote: "Boo!" Yet another misrepresentation of my point of view in his defense of Calvanism. Calvanism is bogus.")

Note: The above was not actually written by Van. I am just having fun.
_________________
The God of our Lord Jesus Christ give to you a spirit of wisdom and revelation in the FULL knowledge of Him.--Eph 1:17

Nobby · Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:03 pm Post subject:

Now Children behave!! Wink

Have you done your home work yet??
No TV for you tonight!

gswisher · Rabid Pit Bull Joined: 04 Jun 2003 Posts: 421

Van · Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2003 1:11 pm Post subject:

As you can see, a concerted effort is being made to reduce a scriptural study into petty bickering.

Total depravity is a false doctrine. Total grace is a false doctrine. Acceptance of the gospel is not a work. God chooses us while we are yet sinners.

Calvinism is a false doctrine that cannot be supported biblically.

Fake · Tiger Joined: 03 May 2003 Posts: 862