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james
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: Portland, Ore
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 Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:27 pm Post subject: Scriptures that may point to His deity |
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I did not know which thread to put this under for there are many discussions concerning this subject, so I started a new thread.
I would like this to be solely,a discussion, on the scriptures themselves in which seem to make references to Christ as deity.
I am looking to objectively look at the scriptures and input given as well as commentary and theological opinions on each scripture. Please add scriptures that I may have overlooked on this subject.
The first scripture that comes to mind for me is Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
How could Paul write this about someone who may be considered a mere man, and does this not point to His preexistance in that He is the same yesterday? |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: Scriptures that may point to His deity |
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| james wrote: | The first scripture that comes to mind for me is Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
How could Paul write this about someone who may be considered a mere man, and does this not point to His preexistance in that He is the same yesterday? |
I object to the pejorative "mere" (there is nothing mere about the Messiah) but that is perhaps beside the point.
Must "yesterday" mean from all eternity past? (I don't think so.) Yesterday was Thursday. Jesus is the same today as he was on Thursday. He will be the same tomorrow... and forever the same going forward. I think this phrase could (and should) be considered an idiom.
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james
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Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| In using yesterday, today, and forever I do not see a beginning point nor an ending point. Yesterday was thursday and yesterdays, yesterday was wednesday...etc...would it not have been written Jesus Christ the same from birth to death or in some other terms denoting He had a beginning and an end if it wasn't meant to denote His deity. I do realize this is only a perspective on my part. |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Scriptures that may point to His deity |
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| james wrote: |
Hebrews 13:8 - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
How could Paul write this about someone who may be considered a mere man, and does this not point to His preexistance in that He is the same yesterday? |
Okay ... for the harder ones ...
Did Jesus ever get tired
Did Jesus ever gfet hungry
Did Jesus ever get Thirsty
Did Jesus ever sleep?
Did Jesus ever walk on something other than "dirt/earth"?
okay .. now for the easy ones
Was Jesus born?
Did Jesus ever die?
Was Jesus ever ressurected?
---
So For Paul to say that Jesus never changes is ludicrous when you take the verse "out of context". Which means that the verse when it stands alone is prone to getting oblitterated by evidence to the contrary ...
So the verse by itself would only show that Paul had no clue what he was talking about ...
But if we look at the chapter or at minimum several verses before it to get a better handle on what Paul was striving at ...
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Last edited by doctrellor on Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:27 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | In using yesterday, today, and forever I do not see a beginning point nor an ending point. Yesterday was thursday and yesterdays, yesterday was wednesday...etc...would it not have been written Jesus Christ the same from birth to death or in some other terms denoting He had a beginning and an end if it wasn't meant to denote His deity. |
Does scripture tell us that the Son had a beginning? Yes. Matthew and Luke inform us of the time (and place) in their birth narratives.
The Son was uniquely begotten (i.e., uniquely brought into existense or being) in time and place, not eternity and space.
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"All wish to possess knowledge, but few, comparatively speaking, are willing to pay the price." - Juvenal |
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james
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:31 pm Post subject: |
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other scriptures;
Matt 1:23 ....and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.
John 2:19-21... destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up...speaking of His body
John 1:6-10.....John came to bare witness of the Light ....and the world was made by Him ....speaking of the Light who I believe was Christ for He was the one John came to bare witness of.
I'll give more as I go on. |
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james
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:36 pm Post subject: |
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| What about 1 Cor 10:4 concerning the passage that quotes that Rock in the wilderness was Christ. And verse 9 which states they tempted Christ, speaking of the Children of Israel in the wilderness. |
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doctrellor
Big Lion
Joined: 16 Sep 2008
Posts: 989
Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:39 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | other scriptures;
Matt 1:23 ....and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.
John 2:19-21... destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up...speaking of His body
John 1:6-10.....John came to bare witness of the Light ....and the world was made by Him ....speaking of the Light who I believe was Christ for He was the one John came to bare witness of.
I'll give more as I go on. |
I have to laugh .. I have read some threads, oh what was his name . Habeshaw if I'm thinking of the poster..
The information that was brought up, was ripped to shreds .. and the person would totally ignore the discussion as if it never existed ...
I wonder if James here is going to try the same 1-trick pony routine ...
Let's see, his name is Joshua (when you cross reference the names thru the Hebrew Dictionary ...)
Jesus -> Iesou(s) -> Yeshua = [Joshua]
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Mattathias
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:41 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | What about 1 Cor 10:4 concerning the passage that quotes that Rock in the wilderness was Christ. And verse 9 which states they tempted Christ, speaking of the Children of Israel in the wilderness. |
Any chance that Paul was using typology?
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:50 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | Matt 1:23 ....and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US. |
The Hebrew name Ithiel means "God is with me." The name occurs three times in scripture (once in Nehemiah 11:7 and twice in Proverbs 30:1). Would you argue, based on the meaning of the name, that Ithiel's parents believed that their son was God (YHWH)? (I wouldn't.)
Does the meaning of the name Immanuel prove that Jesus is God (YHWH) or does it prove that YHWH is with us via the agency of his uniquely begotten human son, Jesus?
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:01 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | John 2:19-21... destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up...speaking of His body |
Would you agree that the dead know nothing at all (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that there is no activity in the place where the dead reside (Ecclesiastes 9:10)?
Would you agree that Jesus was dead and in the grave prior to being resurrected to life by his God?
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doctrellor
Big Lion
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Location: Twin Cities
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| Mattathias wrote: | | james wrote: | | Matt 1:23 ....and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US. |
The Hebrew name Ithiel means "God is with me." The name occurs three times in scripture (once in Nehemiah 11:7 and twice in Proverbs 30:1). Would you argue, based on the meaning of the name, that Ithiel's parents believed that their son was God (YHWH)? (I wouldn't.)
Does the meaning of the name Immanuel prove that Jesus is God (YHWH) or does it prove that YHWH is with us via the agency of his uniquely begotten human son, Jesus? |
It's that Jewish idea of Agency that trinitarians keep stumbling over ... they try to ignore it, but with Jesus being the jewish messiah, the jewish culture of the day, religious thought, ideas, concerns .. have to be taken into consideration ..
But for most, who use the mantra "Sola Scriptura!", it's easier than having to do long hard cultural research and finding out that they could be wrong .. lol
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
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Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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| james wrote: | | John 1:6-10.....John came to bare witness of the Light ....and the world was made by Him ....speaking of the Light who I believe was Christ for He was the one John came to bare witness of. |
Would you agree that the world was made by YHWH alone (Isaiah 44:24)?
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Mattathias
King of the Jungle
Joined: 06 Jul 2007
Posts: 1991
Location: Atlanta
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:13 pm Post subject: |
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| doctrellor wrote: | It's that Jewish idea of Agency that trinitarians keep stumbling over ... they try to ignore it, but with Jesus being the jewish messiah, the jewish culture of the day, religious thought, ideas, concerns .. have to be taken into consideration ..
But for most, who use the mantra "Sola Scriptura!", it's easier than having to do long hard cultural research and finding out that they could be wrong .. lol |
I think the Jewish concept of agency is the key to properly understanding Christology. My experience has been that most "common man in the pew" Trinitarians haven't rejected the idea. They haven't even been made aware of it as a possibility by those in the pulpit (whom they rely on).
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james
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Joined: 18 Sep 2007
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Location: Portland, Ore
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| Posted: Fri Oct 03, 2008 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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| doctrellor wrote: | | james wrote: | other scriptures;
Matt 1:23 ....and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US.
John 2:19-21... destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up...speaking of His body
John 1:6-10.....John came to bare witness of the Light ....and the world was made by Him ....speaking of the Light who I believe was Christ for He was the one John came to bare witness of.
I'll give more as I go on. |
I have to laugh .. I have read some threads, oh what was his name . Habeshaw if I'm thinking of the poster..
The information that was brought up, was ripped to shreds .. and the person would totally ignore the discussion as if it never existed ...
I wonder if James here is going to try the same 1-trick pony routine ...
Let's see, his name is Joshua (when you cross reference the names thru the Hebrew Dictionary ...)
Jesus -> Iesou(s) -> Yeshua = [Joshua] |
I have no idea what you mean by this. All I am doing is showing scriptures in which I believe show Christ deity and I am in no way saying I am 100% correct in this nor that these scriptures definitely point to His deity. I am seeking discussion on scriptures that I PERCIEVE speak of deity. I am seeking to understand why these views also are not so widely accepted and how others may percieve these scriptures. So if you feel it necesary to 'rip to shreds' the scriptures feel free and I have no idea what is meant by your '1-trick pony routine'.
Jesus -> Iesou(s) -> Yeshua = [Joshua] and..........I know this what is your point. |
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